97up-list-digest Friday, May 21 1999 Volume 02 : Number 135



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1997 and Newer Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

Re: FTE 97up - Reasonable price for Super Duty
Re: FTE 97up - in America we still get to choose our vehicles
Re: FTE 97up - in America we still get to choose our vehicles
Re: FTE 97up - in America we still get to choose our vehicles
Re: FTE 97up - in America we still get to choose our vehicles
FTE 97up - Mazda 5 spd
FTE 97up - check engine light
Re: FTE 97up - in America we still get to choose our vehicles
Re: FTE 97up - why we lower 4x4's in America...sheesh
FTE 97up - six door F series
RE: FTE 97up - a question about towing (engines and EPA bashers)
Re: FTE 97up - in America we still get to choose our vehicles
FTE 97up - Engines and EPA bashers)
Re: FTE 97up - check engine light
Re: Re: FTE 97up - snowplow package
Re: FTE 97up - Rear window removal
Re: FTE 97up - a question about towing (engines and EPA bashers)
FTE 97up - any word on Excursions?
Re: FTE 97up - in America we still get to choose our vehicles

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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:29:12 -0500
From: "Union Auto"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Reasonable price for Super Duty

That could be a good question. Right now I'd expect to pay $100-500 over
invoice and call it a good deal. Some dealers won't sell the trucks for
anywhere near this price, but many will. However, your talking a 2000 model
and the transport drivers are going to be going on strike next month and
that could create a big shortage (excuse me, bigger shortage) of Super
Duty's causing prices to go up.

Nathan Bernard
Union Auto, Inc
Union, IA 50258

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Kenneth L. Collier Jr.
To:
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 7:12 PM
Subject: FTE 97up - Reasonable price for Super Duty


> Hello All,
>
> I've been a member of this list for quite some time however, I do not
> own a Ford truck. Hopefully this will change in a few months. I plan
> on buying a 2000 model 4x4 F250SD SC PSD. I was wondering if you all
> (yall were I'm from) could tell me what a reasonable price above invoice
> is for a Super-Duty. I know the factors that govern this can vary, but
> I just wanted to get a rough idea. Any insight would be greatly
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks In Advance,
> Lee
>


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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 18:13:59 -0500
From: "Karl Nyhus"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - in America we still get to choose our vehicles

(after an earlier rampage about what kinds of trucks people should NOT drive
and where they shouldn't drive them), Chris Patrick wrote:

>I drive an F-150, because i needed a compromise
>between a vehicle that towed less than 3000 pounds
>every weekend, towed 6000# twice a year, and was
>driven daily 30 miles round trip. even thought
>i would have liked an extended cab long bed f-250, it
>would neither fit in my garage, nor the parking spots at
>my office, and i saw no point in using $60 dollars in
>gas a week when i can use $25, especially
>considering that i need to keep gas in my v-8 Jeep
>which gets 5-6 MPG off road, and my boat
>which burns about $100 of fuel in a good weekend...

...so you have a half ton truck, a jeep, and a boat AND you still feel like
you can tell other people what they shouldn't be driving, huh? Just for an
example, you might be using more fuel than the guy who owns only a 1-ton
dually and drives it for his personal use vehicle. And what about when the
guy who owns a Honda Civic and a push mower tells you that YOU're using too
much fuel? I respect your right to choose the vehicles you drive and how
much you're willing to pay to fuel them. I just wish you'd respect the
choices others make for equally valid reasons of their own....


Karl Nyhus, Minneapolis, MN--1997 Pacific Green Ford
F-150 SuperCab XL, SB, 4.6L V8, 4WD, 5-speed,
3.08, LT255/70R16D BFG All-Terrain T/A on steel,
Better Built toolbox, Line-X spray-in liner, rust-proofed,
undercoated

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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 18:37:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Douglas R. Floyd"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - in America we still get to choose our vehicles

> ...so you have a half ton truck, a jeep, and a boat AND you still feel like
> you can tell other people what they shouldn't be driving, huh? Just for an
> example, you might be using more fuel than the guy who owns only a 1-ton
> dually and drives it for his personal use vehicle. And what about when the
> guy who owns a Honda Civic and a push mower tells you that YOU're using too
> much fuel? I respect your right to choose the vehicles you drive and how
> much you're willing to pay to fuel them. I just wish you'd respect the
> choices others make for equally valid reasons of their own....

This is one of the biggest problems America faces -- too many people trying
to grab control of our decisions "for our own good".

If I choose to buy a dump truck for my daily commute to work, and pay the
taxes and registration, this is my decision. However, I resent the fact
that there are people out there who want to shove everyone in AMC Gremlin
like cars "for their own good".

> Karl Nyhus, Minneapolis, MN--1997 Pacific Green Ford
> F-150 SuperCab XL, SB, 4.6L V8, 4WD, 5-speed,
> 3.08, LT255/70R16D BFG All-Terrain T/A on steel,
> Better Built toolbox, Line-X spray-in liner, rust-proofed,
> undercoated
>
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>


- --
Douglas R. Floyd |
| Quote coming soon.
Disclaimer: |
I speak for myself, not IBM. |
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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:27:51 -0700
From: "Rob Bryan"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - in America we still get to choose our vehicles

> If I choose to buy a dump truck for my daily commute to work, and pay the
> taxes and registration, this is my decision. However, I resent the fact
> that there are people out there who want to shove everyone in AMC Gremlin
> like cars "for their own good".

Actually, they are trying to get us into tin cans like Honda Civics or
"remote emissions vehicles" such as the GM EV1. Boy, I can't wait until
Clinton and his cronies aren't around anymore to "feel my pain".

Rob
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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:44:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Douglas R. Floyd"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - in America we still get to choose our vehicles

>
> > If I choose to buy a dump truck for my daily commute to work, and pay the
> > taxes and registration, this is my decision. However, I resent the fact
> > that there are people out there who want to shove everyone in AMC Gremlin
> > like cars "for their own good".
>
> Actually, they are trying to get us into tin cans like Honda Civics or
> "remote emissions vehicles" such as the GM EV1. Boy, I can't wait until
> Clinton and his cronies aren't around anymore to "feel my pain".

What is amazing is how people say how pickups/SUV's are causing problems
with collisions, et al. Its not because pickups are getting any bigger,
its because cars have gotten smaller. A Surburban is the same size
it has been for 20 years. A F350 long bed is pretty much the same
size as it has been. However, if Ford converts a F250 SD into a SUV which
is mainly removing the bed, adding seats and a one-piece front and rear,
all the granolas get into an uproar.

- --
Douglas R. Floyd |
| Quote coming soon.
Disclaimer: |
I speak for myself, not IBM. |
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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 18:35:30 -0600
From: "Randy Kindler"
Subject: FTE 97up - Mazda 5 spd

While I would agree that the M5OD is a weak link in the F150 powertrain, I
don't think they are all that bad. I had one in a Ranger that was problem
free for the 127,000 miles I put on the truck. I also had one in a '91 F150
that was problem free for 90k miles. It then started leaking from a seal at
the top of the transmission, which I'm told is pretty common. Both of these
trucks were used off road a lot on rocky trails, and though well maintained,
they weren't babied. The F150 had a slightly beefed 302 with 4.10s and 33
inch tires. I never towed anything heavier than a motorcycle trailer,
though. I probably would have opted for this tranny in my '98 if it was
available with the 5.4, just because of the lower 1st gear. I do wish Ford
would put a 5 or 6 speed in the F150s with a Granny low gear, and an OD top
gear, though. Also, I wish that they would bring back factory 4.10 gears and
front LSD. I guess Ford figures that only Super Duty owners like to go to
the mountains.

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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:03:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: brhammel68 webtv.net (Brian Hammel)
Subject: FTE 97up - check engine light

The first time my check engine light came on I took it to the dealer for
service. The code read a mis-fire in cyl.4. They cleaned the fuel
injectors and gapped the plugs. Seemed to run pretty good until the
light came on again. Ignored it, eventually it shut off. Then again it
came on. This time it didn't shut off. Took it in for service again.
Same trouble code as before. The service manager called Ford and they
said there was a service bulletin just issued for the plug wires. They
have a new and improved wire set to replace the originals. Seems that
the original wires were allowing moisture in them. Everything seems to
be solved since the wire change. By the way, this is on a 97 4.6L.
Keeping my fingers crossed!! Brian

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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:00:08 -0600
From: "Daniel M. Richmeier"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - in America we still get to choose our vehicles

I have '99 F-350 crew cab which I use exclusively for grocery shopping.
I was thinking of getting something larger and was wondering about what
appears to be a "double" Ford crew-cab, with six doors. I have seen
two of these vehicles in the Denver metro area, although I have never
seen one in a dealership or even in a brochure. Is this a Ford factory
vehicle, if so, what is it called? What does it cost?

Dan


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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:46:05 -0500
From: "C. K. Hartline"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - why we lower 4x4's in America...sheesh

No wait! thats why I would lower a 4x4!! I'm saving all those little cars
that I'm going to total if I hit one and go over the bumper with a SuperDuty
250 4x4!! LOL I'm sorry, but the guy is right, the trucks haven't gotten
bigger, in fact they've lost ground in the size department, as I've noted
before the Ranger used to be a full size truck.

C.K.

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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:21:42 -0800
From: Perry Klein
Subject: FTE 97up - six door F series

There are a few of the six door fords running around Pruhoe bay.
I think they are made by centurian or something like that.
The same people that made the early four door ford suburban type thing.

pk

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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:30:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sandman
Subject: RE: FTE 97up - a question about towing (engines and EPA bashers)

Yeah, its true that you don't need a medium duty truck to do most normal
things, but there is also the issue of money. Some people needs to tow
large loads a few times a year, and after spending $30,000 on a truck, the
last thing they are going to do is go and get a car, when their not
towing. As far as parking, there usually isn't much of a problem with
them if the place they are going has proper sized parking spots.


On Thu, 20 May 1999, Chris Patrick wrote:
>
> fantastic!.. by forcing people to buy specialized vehicles for specialized
> tasks, you will probably
> reduce the number of vehicles on the road at any given time, and increase
> the servicable life of said vehicles, and keep the
> idiots out of the city with thier dually 1 ton fifth wheel towing crew cab
> rigs, who do nothing but tie up traffic, and use too much gas. I cant tell
> you the number of times ive seen these huge vehicles, bed completely empty,
> parked taking up two spots in such non construction, non mining, non
> farming, and non towing uses as getting groceries, driving the kids to
> school, dropping off mail, running to the hardware store to get a drill
> bit... etc etc etc.. just sillyness.
> if you need a rig to tow something, fantastic, buy one... but leave it
> parked under the trailer, and drive something sensible to do the family
> running. if your going to pick up a gallon of milk, you dont need 488 Ci, 6
> seats, 8 foot bed and 10000# towing capacity....
>
>

Most people on this list are not driving a Dogde v10. At least the Ford
engines are a bit more efficient that that monster, so get off your 488
CID engine quotes.

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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:29:03 EDT
From: Ccdolf aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - in America we still get to choose our vehicles

As an american and a citizen in the armed forces, i firmly believe that
whatever size truck we want to drive is totally our decision. i personally
like big trucks f-350 4x4 7.3 L PSD crew cab dually with a possible lift
kit installed. i'm not one to race trucks or lower them for sport looks. i
just want a truck for work and towing, and my daily commutes. those who like
the honda(rice burners) and the other smaller import- 700 miles per gallon
four bangers can have what they want too. just let my decision to buy a big
truck be my decision. after all i fight to defend my country to keep it free
and in turn i will choose to drive what i wish.

Bill
98 f-150 reg cab 4.2 5 spd
4x2
( soon to come, 99 f-150 5.4 auto 4x4 sc)
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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:56:03 -0400
From: "Keith Veren"
Subject: FTE 97up - Engines and EPA bashers)

Thank you George, I agree with you 100%. I will send in my comments. Also,
I will post your letter on the Expedition newsletter group.

Keith

- -----Original Message-----
From: GEORGE CROLL
To: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
Date: Thursday, May 20, 1999 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - a question about towing (engines and EPA bashers)



>Second the EPA is right now changing the rules again to put more
restrictive emissions controls on all trucks and is
>also proposing to lower sulfur in diesel fuel which will raise the cost of
diesel fuel in the future. Despite the fact that
>I posted where to go and see what is happening not one of the EPA bashers
on this site responded. If you give a
>d&%$, do something about it don't just whine about it. On the following
site is a place to register a comment which
>EPA must respond to before it can finalize the changes. Here is one of the
comments I made on this rule.
>
>http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.epa.gov/oms/tr2home.htm#Documents
>
>comment # 1. EPA should allow exemptions to the emissions controls for
special groups of vehicle owners in rural
>air quality attainment areas. Farmers, minimg operations and other rural
activities require high power vehicles
>capable of performing heavy towing and hauling activities. The new
emission limits are not justified for these
>vehicles as the emission controls limit the size and power output of these
vehicles. Under the exception proposed
>vehicle manufacturers would be allowed to manufacture for sale special high
power vehicles with limited emission
>controls. There are several reasonms for this including.
>
>1. these vehicles are used for long periods of time where maintenance
considerations become important.
>Maintaining complex emission systems is an unfair burden on the owners of
these vehicles who often perform their
>own maintenance and need simple reliable vehicles. Manufacturers should be
encouraged to develop simple
>effective controls weighing the benifits of simple design and service
against meeting the most stringent emission limit.
>It is much more likely that a simple and inexpensive emissions control
sytem will be properly maintained by the
>owners.
>
>2. Vehicles used in very harsh conditions such as farming mining or heavy
constructions in rural areas are not
>resold to the general public but are oftern used as spare parts vehicles
when their useful life is done. there is little
>danger of these vehicles becoming widley used in non attainment areas.
>
>3. The users of these vehicles will buy larger vehicles such as heavy duty
diesel trucks which will increase overall
>emissions to perform the required work if the new standards limit the
towing and hauling capacity of future light and
>medium duty trucks. For example if in the future the towing capacity of
3/4 and 1 tom trucks falls below 10,000 lbs I
>will personally buy a 2 1/2 ton truck to tow my 5th wheel trailer.
Currently a 1 ton truck is adequate for this purpose.
>
>Other comments included stuff about exceptions for owners of RV's. Perhaps
specisl "towing" vehicles coudl be
>allowed.
>
>Take an hour of your time and do something. If anyone wants help in
posting a comment on the website let me know
>I will help you out. Remember just because I work for EPA does not mean I
agree with everythiing we do here. I also
>strongly believe in the publics right to participate in this process and
will help anyone understand what the issues are
>and how to properly determine what EPA's answer to your comment was. If
you put in a comment and you do not
>think EPA responded appropriatly you can do something about it, (sue EPA or
join a suit against EPA, it always
>happens) I can tell you for a fact no one at EPA other than myself cares a
hoot about people who need working and
>towing vehicles for their livelyhood or for recreation and vehicle
manufacturers only care about added cost not
>practicality. No one is giving EPA your side of the story except me and
one comment won't cut it.
>George Croll
>EPA-OAR-ARD
>(202)564-0162
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>

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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:51:12 -0500
From: Glenn See
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - check engine light

on my '97 150 4.6 V8 the engine light came on at 52K, I took it to a
community college to use the scanner. It said the same thing, misfire on
No. cylinder. I took it to a dealer, they said an accumulation of water
cause the misfire, put some grease around it, charged me $75 and said it
could occur again. The grease did seem to lessen interference I had been
getting on the AM radio on 1180 frequency.

Was your pickup still in warranty and did they charge you?

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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 22:21:00 -0400
From: "Keith Veren"
Subject: Re: Re: FTE 97up - snowplow package

Before I put on the lift in front, the ride was fine and the handling was
fine too - a little mushy up front, though. The rear was definitely higher
than the front. The trucks built after 2/15/99 or so now have 2" instead of
4" blocks in the rear so they will look more level than the ones built with
the 4" rear blocks, but they will sit lower. The snowplow package does not
really add height, you need new front springs to do that. If your truck
build date was after 2/15/99 and you decide to upgrade you front springs,
you will probably have to get a different lift kit than I did (less of a
lift), or you truck will look like it's sitting on it's rear!

Keith

- -----Original Message-----
From: Karaus, Dick
To: Ford Trucks (E-mail)
Date: Thursday, May 20, 1999 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: Re: FTE 97up - snowplow package


>Thanks for the info, Keith.
>>
>>Still, before you put the lift kit on, how was the ride, handling, etc.
>>Around here (Cincinnati), I would probably have the plow on only a couple
>>months out of the year. The rest of the time, I will have to tolerate
>>whatever the snowplow springs do to the ride. I probably won't add the
>lift
>>kit...I won't mind the truck looking like its going downhill all the time
>>(who knows, though. Once I actually see it like that.......now where's
>that
>>Tuff-Country number....). You do remind me of another point. The truck,
>>without the plow, is not level. Will the snowplow package (without the
>plow
>>on it) level it up? Does the package raise only the front of the truck,
or
>>the back, too?
>>
>>Thanks in advance.
>>Can't wait for that truck!
>>Dick.
>>
>>Keith


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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:16:44 -0500
From: "Mike Fairleigh"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Rear window removal

Where are these tabs, Nathan? And thanks much for your input on this.

Mike Fairleigh
mikef sky.net
...Always remembering our veterans.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Union Auto
To: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
Date: Thursday, May 20, 1999 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Rear window removal


>Have the dealer check to make sure the tabs are broken off or bent over if
>you have the slider. There are two tabs on the metal where the window
>attaches that are supposed to be removed or bent down on trucks with the
>slider.


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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 00:55:55 EDT
From: RSnovi aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - a question about towing (engines and EPA bashers)

In a message dated 5/20/99 4:04:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Mike.Strukel westgroup.com writes:


AMEN! where do i sign petition?

RS

if you need a rig to tow something, fantastic, buy one... but leave it
parked under the trailer, and drive something sensible to do the family
running. if your going to pick up a gallon of milk, you dont need 488 Ci, 6
seats, 8 foot bed and 10000# towing capacity....


****************************
Hmmm, let's see. We shouldn't drive those big trucks (like my superduty
V10) on the road, so therefore tractor/trailer rigs should probably not be
on the road either, since we all know that they are slow at times and cause
congestion. Not to mention pollution Of course, we should also ban
minivans from the road cause the darn things are always going slow in the
left hand lane. Then there are the SUVs that in an accident cause too much
damage to the inferior vehicles, so they should be banned. oh yes,
There are garbage tucks too. Might as well get rid of those too.
The Geo metro size cars are death traps, so those should go too. geez,
What does that leave us?

Maybe we should all drive Chevy Corsica's in an earth tone color ony(no
offence to anyone)!
We could pick them up at our local government center!

Mike Strukel
99 SD 4x4 V10
68 Bronco
98 Explorer

>>
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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 01:11:33 EDT
From: RSnovi aol.com
Subject: FTE 97up - any word on Excursions?

Reason i am asking is for my mom , she really likes my F250SD PSD/SC/4x4.
She is getting ready to unload(for sale) a 97 GMC 1500 4x4 suburban,loaded
that was used mostly on highway, horse trailer pulling, around town, etc.
Wants to know how long it might be for a Excursion probably w/ V10, its
either that or she will be looking for a fairly new 2500 4x4 'burban. The 1/2
ton just doesnt like those big horses.
Thanks in advance for any info.

Ross S
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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 00:59:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Douglas R. Floyd"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - in America we still get to choose our vehicles

>
> I have '99 F-350 crew cab which I use exclusively for grocery shopping.
> I was thinking of getting something larger and was wondering about what
> appears to be a "double" Ford crew-cab, with six doors. I have seen
> two of these vehicles in the Denver metro area, although I have never....


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