97up-list-digest Monday, April 19 1999 Volume 02 : Number 100



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1997 and Newer Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

Re: FTE 97up - New F450
Re: FTE 97up - Quick Question
FTE 97up - Exhaust Brake
Re: FTE 97up - Quick Question
Re: FTE 97up - New F450
FTE 97up - Towing Capabilities
FTE 97up - Engineered Safety Margins
RE: FTE 97up - Exhaust Brake
Re: FTE 97up - Exhaust Brake
Re: FTE 97up - Exhaust Brake
Re: FTE 97up - Quick Question
Re: FTE 97up - Engineered Safety Margins
Re: FTE 97up - Engineered Safety Margins
RE: FTE 97up - Exhaust Brake
Re: FTE 97up - Quick Question
FTE 97up - ADMIN: Web site updates
Re: FTE 97up - New F450
Re: FTE 97up - Quick Question
Re: FTE 97up - Exhaust Brake
Re: FTE 97up - Exhaust Brake

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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 08:08:01 EDT
From: NavJohn aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - New F450

In a message dated 04/17/99 154614, stoney ford-trucks.com writes:

>I'm seriously
considering the F-450, w/Powerstroke (7.3) and 6-speed manual trans and (I
think) 4.88 rears. A crewcab w/176 in wheelbase. This would be my first
diesel (Run mostly 460's w/one 429) and my first new truck of any kind in
quite a few years. Need input. Anybody familiar with or have a truck like
this? Any information relating to this will be much appreciated.

Stoney -- Just bought a similar truck -- except with auto rather than
6-speed. I've only put about 500 miles on it so far, and haven't towed with
it yet -- I'm getting a 33-foot 5th wheel trailer that will weigh around
14,000-15,000 pounds fully loaded, so the truck will have to work some then.
Not too much I can tell you at this point. The 450 rides rough, particularly
without a bed. I'm hoping that adding a 1200 lb. bed will smooth things out
some. And you can sure tell it has a 4.88 rear end. Shift points are at
lower speeds, and it turns around 2400 rpms at 60 mph. Since this will be
our only vehicle when we start full-time RV living, I'm going to install an
auxiliary overdrive that will drop the ratio to an effective 3.81. I'll also
probably add an exhaust brake. This is recommended for any diesel used for
towing in the mountains, since diesel engines don't develop back pressure to
help you slow down on down grades.
The truck does drive and handle well. It has good acceleration (for a
diesel) and so far (knock on wood) I haven't had any problems with it. I got
a good price on it (about $800 below dealer's invoice) and a quick delivery
(just over a month).
Will keep you posted.
John Wilson
Waddy, KY

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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 07:40:30 -0700
From: JJ Thomas
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Quick Question

Actually, when you get to high end computers like a Compaq Server, they
will not run with the cover removed. The cover need to be installed just
to keep the computer inners cool!

When I took my Ranger in because the rear ABS was not working, because the
back end came around when I stopped, the service writer told me that it is
possible for the back end to come around even though the truck did not
break traction. I retrospect, I am sorry that I did not read the writer
the riot act.

- -Julian

At 22:26 04/17/99 -0500, you wrote:
>What kind of a crapola response is that?!! They run cooler with no paint
>underneath?!! that would be like me making a computer and handing it to the
>customer with no case covering the motherboard and memory...cus it'll run
>cooler...
> thats a pretty lame excuse.
>
>C.K.
>
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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 09:57:25 -0500
From: "C. K. Hartline"
Subject: FTE 97up - Exhaust Brake

I'm not familiar with diesels at all, and I've heard the term Exhaust Brake
used frequently since subscribing to the list. Without tearing down the
entire drivetrain and showing me every little nut and bolt...could someone
give me a brief overview of what this is and how it works? Thank you!

C.K.

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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:42:44 EDT
From: RAMWORKER aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Quick Question

Just going to take a moment to post what little I know about this
subject. First, Ford was the first to cease painting certain underhood
and chassis components in the late '70's. The other manufacturers
followed suit shortly thereafter.
Second, anything that you would like to dissipate heat should be
painted black. Why do you think radiators and heat exchangers
have always been painted black? It's not because black paint
is cheap! It's because black dissipates and absorbs heat the best.
You might see the short
biography in last months Readers Digest on Robin Williams where
they talk about his father retiring from Ford in '67 because the bean
counters had taken over. Not painting these components doesn't
save much per unit, but when you add it up over a years production...

Best Regards,
Robert

In a message dated 4/17/99 8:14:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cakid stlmo.com
writes:

> What kind of a crapola response is that?!! They run cooler with no paint
> underneath?!! that would be like me making a computer and handing it to
the
> customer with no case covering the motherboard and memory...cus it'll run
> cooler...
> thats a pretty lame excuse.
>
> C.K.


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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:01:53 EDT
From: RAMWORKER aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - New F450

I have an auxiliary overdrive on my truck, it's a GearVendors and I love it,
at least I did until April 7, 1999, at midnight, when I was northbound on
Purchase Parkway in Kentucky at exit 24, near Mayfield on an uphill grade,
when I heard metal hit the ground and started to decelerate as the engine was
no longer connected to the wheels. Yep, the GearVendors case broke, into two
pieces, the input shaft broken, the front bearing destroyed. We don't know
what happened yet, GearVendors has the unit and is trying to find out what
happened. Rick Johnson at GearVendors was most helpful, he overnight
airfreighted a new unit out at their expense, paid the return freight on the
old unit. No arguments, no muss, no fuss, he just took care of it and I was
back on my way by the afternoon of 4/9/99 with a new unit. According to Rick
and my local transmission shop (who originally installed the unit) this
problem just does not happen. I believe them and continue to support them. I
like the unit and the additional fuel economy it provides. My truck went from
a maximum of 17 MPG to a maximum of 22 MPG with it. With 4.88 gears, I would
consider an auxiliary transmission a must. I still recommend the GearVendors.
I know of one person who posts on usenet that lives in New York who has an
F-450 6 speed who went from 10 MPG to 12 MPG.

Best Regards,
Robert

In a message dated 4/18/99 1:39:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time, NavJohn aol.com
writes:

> I'm going to install an
> auxiliary overdrive that will drop the ratio to an effective 3.81.

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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:15:28 -0500
From: "Allemand, Andre'"
Subject: FTE 97up - Towing Capabilities

I have a ford f-150 supercab with the 5.2 ltr / manual transmission. My
book says I could tow 3300 lbs. I'm sure these guys are being conservative
with that number. Presently I tow a fW camper at 3500 lbs. with no
problems. Anyone know how much over the recommended weight I could tow....?


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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 13:40:17 -0400
From: "Keith Veren"
Subject: FTE 97up - Engineered Safety Margins

Safety margins (unpublished "allowable" tolerances) regarding weights and
capabilities can vary often by one or more orders of magnitude from devise
to devise even on the same vehicle.

For example, for weight-carrying items like pick-up trucks, the weight
capacity is based on the weakest link, usually the axle bearings or wheels /
tires. Each of those may have a built-in safety margin of 50% to 100%
depending on the manufacturer and the use. For example, a tire rated as a
maximum load of 4,500 lb. 75psi may be able to carry 5,000 lb. 80psi at
45MPH all day without a problem, but would overheat at 5,000 lb. 70psi if
going 65 MPH. In other words, exceeding recommended ratings depends on more
than just the % safety margin built in. You must also include the other
factors effecting the item. Again, using the same example, if you overload
the tire by putting 5,000 lb. on it 75psi and you only 45 MPH you may be
fine on the highway until you try to go a few miles on a gravel road
whereupon the tire shreds itself.

Personally, I have on rare occasion gone beyond the published limits of
various equipment and vehicles I have owned, and I have found that if you do
not exceed the max limits (whatever it may be) by more than 15% to 25% you
are usually OK. Note that this does not apply to certain parameters such as
engine redlines or health & safety limits such as LEL (lower explosive
limits) and O2 (oxygen %) when dealing with confined spaces and/or flammable
vapor concentrations.

Keith

- -----Original Message-----
From: Allemand, Andre'
To: '97up-list ford-trucks.com'
Date: Sunday, April 18, 1999 12:20 PM
Subject: FTE 97up - Towing Capabilities


>I have a ford f-150 supercab with the 5.2 ltr / manual transmission. My
>book says I could tow 3300 lbs. I'm sure these guys are being conservative
>with that number. Presently I tow a fW camper at 3500 lbs. with no
>problems. Anyone know how much over the recommended weight I could
tow....?
>
>
>== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
>

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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:26:13 -0400
From: "William Suarez"
Subject: RE: FTE 97up - Exhaust Brake

C.K.

In simplest terms, an exhaust "brake" restricts the flow of exhaust coming
out of the engine. The effect is that the engine's own compression is then
utilized as a "braking" mechanism for the vehicle.

There are different types the utilize vacuum and even mechanical means for
activation. Your need will depend alot on what your towing and even more
important, in what kind of terrain.

Regards,

Bill Suarez

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-97up-list ford-trucks.com
> [mailto:owner-97up-list ford-trucks.com]On Behalf Of C. K. Hartline
> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 1999 10:57 AM
> To: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: FTE 97up - Exhaust Brake
>
>
> I'm not familiar with diesels at all, and I've heard the term
> Exhaust Brake
> used frequently since subscribing to the list. Without tearing down the
> entire drivetrain and showing me every little nut and bolt...could someone
> give me a brief overview of what this is and how it works? Thank you!
>
> C.K.
>
> == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
>

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:32:30 EDT
From: NavJohn aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Exhaust Brake

In a message dated 04/18/99 144409, cakid stlmo.com writes:

>I'm not familiar with diesels at all, and I've heard the term Exhaust Brake
used frequently since subscribing to the list. Without tearing down the
entire drivetrain and showing me every little nut and bolt...could someone
give me a brief overview of what this is and how it works? Thank you!

Imagine an old-fashioned flue damper in a stove pipe. Now put a similar
butterfly valve in the exhaust line of a diesel and you've got an exhaust
brake. When a diesel idles, it doesn't get as much fuel, but just as much
air (there's no butterfly in the carb like in a gas engine -- actually, no
carb at all in a diesel), so the engine doesn't develop braking force when
you're going down hill. The exhaust brake, by restricting the flow of
exhaust gases, gives the engine something to "push against" and slows you
down. The "jake brake" serves a similar purpose, but operates on the valves
and is noisy in use. It's banned in some mountain communities. The exhaust
brake doesn't produce noise, and is ok to use even where jake brakes are
prohibited. Exhaust brakes mount either immediately behind the turbo, or in
the exhaust pipe just ahead of the muffler, and are controlled by a switch in
the cab.
Hope this helps.
John Wilson

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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 21:37:19 GMT
From: alannorthstar mindspring.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Exhaust Brake

On Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:26:13 -0400, you wrote:

:C.K.
:
:In simplest terms, an exhaust "brake" restricts the flow of exhaust =
coming
:out of the engine. The effect is that the engine's own compression is =
then
:utilized as a "braking" mechanism for the vehicle.
:
:There are different types the utilize vacuum and even mechanical means =
for
:activation. Your need will depend alot on what your towing and even more
:important, in what kind of terrain.
:
:Regards,
:
:Bill Suarez
:
Ah! This must be the cause of that loud "blatting" sound that
some trucks make now and then -- semis, usually -- when they are
slowing down. They never seem to use that for more than a few
seconds. =20

I wonder how good that is for the engine and the exhaust
system?????

Later,
Alan
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:45:50 -0700
From: Ken Peterson
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Quick Question

>Second, anything that you would like to dissipate heat should be
>painted black. Why do you think radiators and heat exchangers
>have always been painted black? It's not because black paint
>is cheap! It's because black dissipates and absorbs heat the best.

This is literally true, but the difference between black (flat black being
best) and rusty brown is probably insignificant compared to light color
paint and especially shiny metal. I remember reading about color vs.
radiant effectiveness; darker colors were little different from black.

On the principle that a rusting cover on my differential is both
destructive and offensive to me, Ford should have painted it with at least
one coat of black paint. The impression ir gives may be worth the extra 10
cents per cover it takes, Jeez!

How about the guys who chrome their diffs!

- ---------------
Ken Peterson, Portland, OR
1998 F-250LD Lariat, extended cab, short bed, 4X2, 5.4l, class-3 tow options
LT245X16/steel rims, 4W disks + ABS, load-leveling rear suspension.
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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:49:04 -0700
From: Ken Peterson
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Engineered Safety Margins

>Safety margins (unpublished "allowable" tolerances) regarding weights and
>capabilities can vary often by one or more orders of magnitude from devise
>to devise even on the same vehicle.

Um ... an order of magnitude mean a factor of *ten*, and two orders is a
factor of one hundred. I don't think you meant that.

Such a safety margin means that an axle publicly rated at 4500 lbs might be
really able to handle 45,000 lbs? I don't think so!

- ---------------
Ken Peterson, Portland, OR
1998 F-250LD Lariat, extended cab, short bed, 4X2, 5.4l, class-3 tow options
LT245X16/steel rims, 4W disks + ABS, load-leveling rear suspension.
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 19:42:50 -0400
From: "Keith Veren"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Engineered Safety Margins

What I meant was that some parts of a truck, e.g., the tires, have a
significantly smaller relative safety margin than, lets say, the brake pedal
bar. You are correct in that all safety margins are probably well below an
order of magnitude (10X) relative to the published max load, and it would be
extremely rare for a part to be so over engineered that it would have a
safety margin (relative to the published tolerance) of 2 orders of magnitude
(100X)! Again, I have found that exceeding certain published "max loads" by
15%, 20% or even 25% not to result in part or system failure. Of course,
25% is much less than an order of magnitude.

Keith


- -----Original Message-----
From: Ken Peterson
To: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
Date: Sunday, April 18, 1999 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Engineered Safety Margins


>>Safety margins (unpublished "allowable" tolerances) regarding weights and
>>capabilities can vary often by one or more orders of magnitude from devise
>>to devise even on the same vehicle.
>
>Um ... an order of magnitude mean a factor of *ten*, and two orders is a
>factor of one hundred. I don't think you meant that.
>
>Such a safety margin means that an axle publicly rated at 4500 lbs might be
>really able to handle 45,000 lbs? I don't think so!
>
>---------------
>Ken Peterson, Portland, OR
>1998 F-250LD Lariat, extended cab, short bed, 4X2, 5.4l, class-3 tow
options
>LT245X16/steel rims, 4W disks + ABS, load-leveling rear suspension.
>== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
>

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 20:19:46 -0400
From: "William Suarez"
Subject: RE: FTE 97up - Exhaust Brake

Actually, the "blatting" sound that you are referring to is from a "Jake
Brake" (short for Jacobson). This is a system that allows the operator to
control the position of the valves in the engine. An exhaust brake will not
have any appreciable effect on engine noise.

Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-97up-list ford-trucks.com
> [mailto:owner-97up-list ford-trucks.com]On Behalf Of
> alannorthstar mindspring.com
> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 1999 5:37 PM
> To: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Exhaust Brake
>
>
> On Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:26:13 -0400, you wrote:
>
> :C.K.
> :
> :In simplest terms, an exhaust "brake" restricts the flow of
> exhaust coming
> :out of the engine. The effect is that the engine's own
> compression is then
> :utilized as a "braking" mechanism for the vehicle.
> :
> :There are different types the utilize vacuum and even mechanical
> means for
> :activation. Your need will depend alot on what your towing and even more
> :important, in what kind of terrain.
> :
> :Regards,
> :
> :Bill Suarez
> :
> Ah! This must be the cause of that loud "blatting" sound that
> some trucks make now and then -- semis, usually -- when they are
> slowing down. They never seem to use that for more than a few
> seconds.
>
> I wonder how good that is for the engine and the exhaust
> system?????
>
> Later,
> Alan
> == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
>

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 19:57:52 -0400
From: Karen Wall / Steve Offiler
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Quick Question

>>Second, anything that you would like to dissipate heat should be
>>painted black... (snip)

>This is literally true, but the difference between black (flat black being
>best) and rusty brown is probably insignificant compared to light color
>paint and especially shiny metal.... (snip)

>How about the guys who chrome their diffs!

Folks - quick lesson in heat transfer. There are three ways heat moves.
(1) conduction: a warmer body in direct contact with a cooler body, and
heat flows from warmer to cooler; (2) convection: a warm body transfers
heat to the air immediately surrounding it by conduction, and the warmed
air rises, allowing more cool air to come into contact and be warmed by
convection, and so on... (2a) subset of #2 is forced convection: where the
air is moved not by natural gravitational forces but rather by fans or
anything else that causes airflow; (3) radiation: a warm body radiates
energy into space, based on "emissivity" factor of the surface... dark
colors have significantly higher emissivity than shiny colors.

Now, about those guys that chrome their diff. covers: I'd guess that
convection, and probably a form of forced convection based on airflow from
driving down the road, will cool the diff sufficiently. Racing and serious
offroad applications might benefit from a black diff cover, in the
hairy-edge situations where they need all the help they can get. The
amount of heat transfer from the differential due to radiation (the only
form of heat transfer that is affected by color) for a normal road vehicle
is fairly minimal.

Hope this helps. Please don't crucify the newbie.

Steve O.
soffiler ici.net
North Scituate RI

'97 F-250 HD.... does my "old-style" truck fit into the 97-up group???

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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 21:35:18 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: FTE 97up - ADMIN: Web site updates

- - Ford press release added to news section
- - Following added to pictorial:
1948 F6 fire engine
1956 F100
1956 F100
1966 F350
1985 F150 XLT Lariat 4x4
1995 F150 XLT
1996 F250 HD
1999 F350 Superduty Crewcab
- - Several links added to links sections

Later,
Ken Payne
Admin, Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com

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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:34:13 -0700
From: The Hepburn
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - New F450

j arnold wrote:
>
> I just subsribed to this list. Long time member of 61-79 list currently
> with five F series pick-ups. I need a new towing vehicle. Mostly gooseneck
> trailers, 8,000 to 15,000 pounds gross, 95% on highways. I'm seriosly
> considering the F-450, w/Powerstroke (7.3) and 6-speed manual trans and (I
> think) 4.88 rears. A crewcab w/176 in wheelbase. This would be my first
> diesel (Run mostly 460's w/one 429) and my first new truck of any kind in
> quite a few years. Need input. Anybody familiar with or have a truck like
> this? Any information relating to this will be much appreciated. Thanks in
> advance.
>
Well, I how have 1400 miles on my F450 Crew Cab PSD, but it has an
automatic
instead of the 6 speed. So far I'm averaging 11.5 mpg in combined highway
and commute driving. With my second unit body the truck tips the scales at
about 8500 lbs and that weight helps the ride - both my wife and I think it
rides better than our old 1990 F350 Crew Cab.

Alan Hepburn


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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:18:17 EDT
From: RAMWORKER aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Quick Question

In a message dated 4/18/99 5:45:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, soffiler ici.net
writes:

> Folks - quick lesson in heat transfer. There are three ways heat moves.
> (1) conduction: a warmer body in direct contact with a cooler body, and
> heat flows from warmer to cooler; (2) convection: a warm body transfers
> heat to the air immediately surrounding it by conduction, and the warmed
> air rises, allowing more cool air to come into contact and be warmed by
> convection, and so on... (2a) subset of #2 is forced convection: where the
> air is moved not by natural gravitational forces but rather by fans or
> anything else that causes airflow; (3) radiation: a warm body radiates
> energy into space, based on "emissivity" factor of the surface... dark
> colors have significantly higher emissivity than shiny colors.
>
> Now, about those guys that chrome their diff. covers: I'd guess that
> convection, and probably a form of forced convection based on airflow from
> driving down the road, will cool the diff sufficiently. Racing and serious
> offroad applications might benefit from a black diff cover, in the
> hairy-edge situations where they need all the help they can get. The
> amount of heat transfer from the differential due to radiation (the only
> form of heat transfer that is affected by color) for a normal road vehicle
> is fairly minimal.
>
> Hope this helps. Please don't crucify the newbie.

Technical stuff is always welcome with me (as are corrections), and I believe
with the group as a whole. Nobody is going to crucify the newbie, heck, they
even tolerate me! You'll be most welcome here. I've been on this list for
almost a year, they've always been most polite with me, I've never seen
anything here that even resembled a flame. I'll be looking forward to more
contributions from you.

Best Regards,
Robert
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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 21:45:44 -0700
From: "Neil Plocek"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Exhaust Brake

The engine brakes (such as the Jake Brake, Pac Brake and C brake)used on
large trucks and tractors does no harm at all. The "exhaust brake" that....

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