97up-list-digest Sunday, November 8 1998 Volume 01 : Number 271



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1997 and Newer Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

FTE 97up - Re:V-10 HP vs torque
FTE 97up - Re:invoice pricing
FTE 97up - Re: GPS Definition
Re: FTE 97up - New '99 F-350 Ordered - How Long to Wait?
Re: FTE 97up - Urgent
Re: FTE 97up -
FTE 97up - Re: New 99 F350 Ordered
Re: FTE 97up - V-10 Horsepower vs. torque
Re: FTE 97up - "Invoice Pricing"
Re: FTE 97up - Urgent (Speedo Calibration)
FTE 97up - F-350 SD SC V-10 Ordered - Thanks
Re: FTE 97up - V-10 Horsepower vs. torque
FTE 97up - Ford F-150 Nascar
Re: FTE 97up - V-10 Horsepower vs. torque
FTE 97up - New EPA ruling
FTE 97up - Looking for aluminum cap for 1999 F-150 SWB
Re: FTE 97up - Re: GPS Definition
Re: FTE 97up - V-10 Horsepower vs. torque
FTE 97up - SD V-10 Noise & Vibration
FTE 97up - recall and oil burning
Re: FTE 97up - recall and oil burning

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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 07:04:04 -0500
From: Lee Haefele
Subject: FTE 97up - Re:V-10 HP vs torque

All I know is that my 89 F-350 460 std 4.10 goes up a particular 2mi
hill in 4th gear at 48 mph, as I remember the 460 makes max torque at
2100 rpm. The new v-10 auto 4.30 goes up the same hill only in 2nd
gear, it will go faster, but engine rpm is above 4000, you can let up on
the gas to force an upshift, but it will not finish the hill without
shifting back down. My $.02 is that truck engines should have max
torque at low rpm. (If only they would make the 300 6cyl into a 600/12.
Those things had max torque at around 1200!) We actually have a 9500 lb
F-350 W/300-6cyl, driver complains it is sluggish, but I tried to lose
him on a hilly road one day & he wouldn't disappear.
> I have noticed throughout these discussions (about the 3.73 vs. the 4.30
> ratios), that a few have noted that the higher RPM's in the 4.30 ratio give
> the engines max output. I looked and the V-10's max torque 410 lb-ft is at
> 2700 rpm while the max horsepower is at about 4250 rpm (275hp).
>
> Everytime I think I understand the difference between what torque and
> horsepower, I get confused once again in a day or two.
Lee Haefele
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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 07:16:08 -0500
From: Lee Haefele
Subject: FTE 97up - Re:invoice pricing

This fee varies
slightly ($125 on a 99 F-150 in KC region) by region and by vehicle
line.
There is no way to get out of this fee unless you have a fleet ID (have
11
vehicles)."

I have 11 vehicles, what are the other benefits of fleet ID? Next
problem, Some of these are titled to a Corp, some to me personally (I
got lots of Ford/Citibank Visa $$$$), some to my wife. If the benefits
were enough, they could all go in my name as their license plates come
due. What about unlicensed vehicles, there is usually one leftover
hanging around, do they all have to be Ford? Can the 11th vehicle be
the one on order?
Lee Haefele
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Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 07:42:22 -0000
From: "John R. Mohme"
Subject: FTE 97up - Re: GPS Definition

DGPS can indicate your location within a "few meters", GPS is only reliable
within a football field sized area.

John R.


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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 07:44:42 -0500
From: wvernon
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - New '99 F-350 Ordered - How Long to Wait?

> 2. My dealer told me that the F-350SD w/ V-10s are "backed-up" and that the
> factories cannot build then fast enough. They said my order might take 3
> months or so before my order is "pulled" to be built. Is this normal for
> the truck I specified when ordered in early October?? [Acton Ford in
> Concord, Massachusetts].
>

You never know when you will take delivery on a SD. I've seen it take
anywhere from a week and a half to nine months (and counting). Nothing
your dealer can do about it except not order hot commodities and cross
his fingers. There's no one you can call, unless your Jac Nasser.


> 3. May I still change my order and not affect my place in line?? My dealer
> says he thinks I can, but is not totally sure.
>

If you change the body style you start over. Otherwise no difference
unless you change to a hot commodity.


> 4. I asked my dealer if it is possible to call someone at Ford to get a
> better idea as to when my truck will get pulled for building and he said it
> cannot be done as far as he knows...is this so??? Is there any way to
> expedite my order??? (my dealer said he ordered it using the
> highest-priority code in the computerized order system).

Everyone uses the highest priority. Get in line and wait your turn.

>

> 5. This is just a philosophical question..why are practically all the
> Supercabs I see on the lot "short-beds"?? I asked my dealer and he said
> people who buy "off-the-lot" always buy SuperCabs with short-beds (6.5'
> instead of 8' beds), but people who order SuperCabs (and even CrewCabs)
> always seem to get the "long-bed"?? Doesn't a short-bed significantly
> reduce the usefulness of a pickup since many typical items (e.g., sheets of
> plywood) are 8-feet long)?? Or is the longer wheelbase of a SuperCab w/8"
> bed a real hassle to drive/park??

They are all a ball to drive and a hassle to park in my opinion. But I
have bigger problems in my life than parking to worry about. As far as
what's sold off the lot goes, who knows what people do. I have a
supercab duelly longbed and I think it looks fantastic. I think the
shortbed would make the cab look too long.
>
> Thank you all in advance, I just want to get the best pick-up with the
> optimum specifications for my uses and not have to wait 6 months to get it!!

Well you may have to. Or longer.
>
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Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 09:25:20 -0500 (EST)
From: AGniesen webtv.net (Adam Niesen)
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Urgent

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Jeff
you are WRONG about the 1mile tire at 1000 drive shaft rpm, you must
take into account the axel ratio, say it had a 4.30 ratio, then it wold
be 232 tire rpm.

ADAM G. NIESEN
USS ALEXANDRIA
SSN 757
FPO/AE 09564-2413
(860)-629-3437


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From: "Jeff"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Urgent
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Wrong. Going to bigger tires will cause your speedometer to indicate a slower speed than actual.
The speedometer senses driveshaft rpm and converts to mph. Imagine having tires that were 1 mile in circumference. One revolution of the axle shaft would move you 1 mile. Now imagine you speedometer is calibrated to having tires w/a circumference of a dime. I rev would move you about 1". If the axle shaft was moving at 100 rpm's, in the first example you'd travel 100 miles/minute. In the later, you'd travel 100 iches /minute. Which is the faster speed? 100 miles per minute (6,000 mph) Yet if your speedometer was calibrated for the dime-sized tires, it's going to display a speed of 100 inches per minute, or .095 mph.
Hence, you actual speed would be greater than indicated if you go to bigger tires.
There is a nice shareware program I found a couple years ago that will tell you waht speedometer error you'll have at any given speed going from one tire to another. It'll also convert the metric sizes to inches, etc. It's caleed "Tire Size", after just looking at it's read me file, it lists the following address to contact: TVJM07A prodigy.com It is (or it was anyway) free.
Jeff

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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 06:29:11 PST
From: "Dave Burdick"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up -

MY NAME IS FRED AND I AM A SALES PERSON AND THE INTERNET SALES MANAGER
FOR MY FORD STORE. THE GAS FEE AND FORD DEALER AVERTISING FEE IS ALL
PART OF THE INVOICE. WE AS A DEALERSHIP ARE CHARGED THIS PER AUTO AND
SO ARE YOU AS A CUSTOMER. THESE ARE UNAVOIDABLE IF YOU TAKE THE TIME
TO REREAD THE EDMUNDS OR CARPOINT FAQ'S YOU WILL FIND THIS OUT. IF YOU
HAVE ANY MORE QUESTIONS PLEASE CALL ME OR E-MAIL ME.

Fred Lovell
Burdick Ford
Central Square NY
315-668-7102
burdickford hotmail.com


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>Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:06:24 -0500
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>From: "Pierre Smith"
>Subject: FTE 97up - "Invoice Pricing"
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>
>For Nathan or anybody who know how dealers operate:
>
>I've found a local dealership (www.invoiceorless.com) that will sell me
an
>Expedition at $100 under invoice. Sounds like a good deal to me except
>they are $282 above invoice pricing (using KBB, Carpoint and Edmunds
as a
>guide). I found out the dealer adds $12 gas (aren't we splitting hairs
>here?) and $270 for FDAF (Ford Dealer Advertising). The salesman
claims
>this is added to all invoices. What gives? I've never heard of such a
>thing.
>
>Another question: I noticed that some of the Eddie Bauer EB's are
coming
>with Firestone tires. Yuk! Is there any way to know what tires are
being
>used during a given week (or month, whatever) of a given models
assembly?
>I would prefer Michelin's or settle for Goodyear's but no Firestone if
I
>can help it.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Pierre
>
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>




______________________________________________________
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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 10:10:07 -0500
From: Gary & Nancy Brinck
Subject: FTE 97up - Re: New 99 F350 Ordered

Re Keith Verens questions:

Keith, I know something about the computer systems that handle orders and the factory
build scheduling. Not all my remarks below are specific to Ford and I also may be
out of date since I haven't worked on their systems for some time (I retired 5 years
ago).

>3. May I still change my order and not affect my place in line?? My dealer
>says he thinks I can, but is not totally sure.

Depends on what you change it to. Customer orders (as opposed to dealer stock) are
queued up FIFO for build slots, but the factory build schedule is based on a
predetermined mix of models and options. They don't just take the orders and custom
build each as the order is received. For example, they might have the ability to
build only 20 V-10s per day, but can build 50 diesels per day. If you change from V10
to diesel, you move to the part of the queue that is waiting for a diesel build slot.
But there might be many more orders for diesels, so maybe your date moves ahead or
maybe you move back. And so on for each item on your order, even paint color!


>4. I asked my dealer if it is possible to call someone at Ford to get a
>better idea as to when my truck will get pulled for building and he said it
>cannot be done as far as he knows...is this so??? Is there any way to
>expedite my order??? (my dealer said he ordered it using the
>highest-priority code in the computerized order system).

There is no better date available until the vehicle gets scheduled for build. The
build date can change over time as production rates and parts availability change,
but the date usually can be queried by the dealer. I know it can at D**ge and am
pretty sure Ford also.

Build scheduling is so complex nobody tampers with it. I suspect even very high
executives can't get any meaningful priority. They may be able to get closer to the
front of the order queue, but the build schedule still holds them back. Customer
Order is usually the highest priority order in the system. Penalties are severe if a
dealer gets caught ordering for stock using the customer order code (but of course,
he may not get caught...).


>5. This is just a philosophical question..why are practically all the
>Supercabs I see on the lot "short-beds"?? I asked my dealer and he said
>people who buy "off-the-lot" always buy SuperCabs with short-beds (6.5'
>instead of 8' beds), but people who order SuperCabs (and even CrewCabs)
>always seem to get the "long-bed"?? Doesn't a short-bed significantly
>reduce the usefulness of a pickup since many typical items (e.g., sheets of
>plywood) are 8-feet long)?? Or is the longer wheelbase of a SuperCab w/8"
>bed a real hassle to drive/park??

This I can speak from experience on, since I own an F250 SD SC Longbed. Yes, the SC
Longbed (and the Crew cab Longbed) is a bear to handle in mall parking lots and
such. Not only is it over 20 ft long, the steering radius leaves a lot to be
desired! So a shortbed is a better choice unless you really, really need the bed
length. I wanted it for my fifth wheel trailer - the longer bed provides more
clearance between the cab of the truck and the front of the trailer, meaning it can't
hit when turning sharply. But with the long turn radius I'm not sure I could have
turned sharp enough for it to hit on a shortbed anyway...
As for usefulness, a 4X8 still fits in a shortbed with the tailgate down, so how
often do you carry 8 ft items around? 10 footers don't count, cause they don't fit
anyway. 12 footers count cause even with the tailgate down, a shortbed lets them
droop too much hanging over the end, whereas an 8 ft bed plus tailgate supports them
nicely. So it's a tradeoff, like fuel economy versus performance. You pays your
money and you takes your choice.

Gary





- --
Gary & Nancy Brinck
in Florida's Ocala Nat'l Forest
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Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 11:22:06 EST
From: KWkM3 aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - V-10 Horsepower vs. torque

In a message dated 11/6/98 3:13:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, dennehyb mcn.net
writes:


horsepower, I get confused once again in a day or two. I have heard some
say that torque is what gives the accelleration and horsepower is what keeps
a constant velocity. Does anybody have an easy way of explaining the
difference? Thanks!

Brandt >>

HP is a function of torque and RPM.


Harry
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Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 11:22:31 EST
From: KWkM3 aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - "Invoice Pricing"

I thought the advertising charge only applies to vehicles on the lot and not
if you order it. Anyone know for sure?

Harry
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Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 11:22:52 EST
From: KWkM3 aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Urgent (Speedo Calibration)

In a message dated 11/6/98 7:19:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, dconde incyte.com
writes:


You CAN adjust your speedo to a new tire size. Take a look at:

http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.abol.com/.query.tips.forddieselmain.Speedo~20Calibration
>>


Mind you this only applies to earlier f series with the electronic odometer.
For every other vehicle you need to change the speedo gear to recalibrate the
speedo.

Harry
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Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 12:05:42 -0500
From: "Keith Veren"
Subject: FTE 97up - F-350 SD SC V-10 Ordered - Thanks

Appreciate all the responses to my questions about ordering and waiting for
the factory to build my F-350SD SuperCab V-10. I guess the real choice
boils down to 4.30 LS vs. 3.73 LS and if I would lose my place in line (or
delay the build date) by changing from the 3.73 LS to 4.30 LS on the
computer order. Of course, Ford could have made the choice easier by also
offering the 4.10 LS as an option with the V-10 for the F-350SD, but they
didn't. [Perhaps if I invest in "quick-change" gears so I can switch to
another ratio depending on my planned usage!!].


Keith

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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 17:21:35 GMT
From: alannorthstar mindspring.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - V-10 Horsepower vs. torque

On Sat, 7 Nov 1998 11:22:06 EST, you wrote:

:In a message dated 11/6/98 3:13:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, =
dennehyb mcn.net
:writes:
:
:
: horsepower, I get confused once again in a day or two. I have heard =
some
: say that torque is what gives the accelleration and horsepower is what =
keeps
: a constant velocity. Does anybody have an easy way of explaining the
: difference? Thanks!
:=20
: Brandt >>
:
:HP is a function of torque and RPM.
:
:
:Harry

....which, of course, makes it TOTALLY understandable!


All I know is that I prefer an engine that makes a good deal of
torque at low rpms. =20

I don't understand it. I just like it.

Later,
Alan
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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 12:51:28 -0800
From: Jon Berman
Subject: FTE 97up - Ford F-150 Nascar

Hello,
I was considering purchasing one of the 1998 special Nascar edition
F-150s (and then taking off the decals on the bed!). Does anyone have
one or know how it is different from the standard F-150? The salespeople
I've spoken with are pretty uninformed, and I can also probably get a
pretty good price as they are not selling very well.

Thank you,
Jon

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Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:56:41 EST
From: KWkM3 aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - V-10 Horsepower vs. torque




All I know is that I prefer an engine that makes a good deal of
torque at low rpms. =20

I don't understand it. I just like it.

Later,
Alan >>

Hey, I never claimed to be a good teacher. Anyway, as far as building or
modifying a truck engine, always strive for the most torque as low in the rpm
range as possible. High horsepower low torque engines are for racing where you
only need a narrow rpm range.

Harry
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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 18:18:43 -0800
From: The Hepburn
Subject: FTE 97up - New EPA ruling

Maybe Nathan or another dealer can answer this question:

Recently the EPA has said that SUV's, trucks, etc. will have to meet
the same emissions requirements as cars...what does this mean for
those of us thinking about buying a new truck? Are the diesel standards
going to be tightened as well? Should I buy this year instead of
waiting until I can afford it? Will the F450 and F550 (and I guess
the upcoming F650) be exempt, being heavier duty trucks?

I'm only interested in diesel, so if anyone can say if the new regs
will dramatically increase the price of the truck, please let me
know. I don't have a problem with going with a 450 or 550 if I can
get around the EPA's iron fist...

Alan Hepburn
Alan Hepburn.com
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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 21:21:51 -0500
From: Lou Mallia
Subject: FTE 97up - Looking for aluminum cap for 1999 F-150 SWB

Does anyone know of any aluminum caps made to fit the contours of the
new body style F-150 (1997+)? I've been looking and all I've found are
fiberglass caps to fit the "curvy" sheetmetal at the back of the cab,
but nothing in aluminum. (All the aluminum caps seem to look better
with the older GM and pre 1997 Ford "boxy" style trucks). I realize
aluminum has it's limitations in terms of forming, but I really don't
think a sardine can would look good on the back of the new body style.

The "lightest" fiberglass I've found weighs in at a hefty 160lbs, I'd
prefer something in aluminum to save weight. To me, form follows
function, but I don't want something that is a total mismatch for the
cab.

Thanks,
Lou

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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 21:30:20 -0500
From: "Todd E."
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Re: GPS Definition

GPS accuracy is 10-15 meters DGPS 0-3 meters

John R. Mohme wrote:

> DGPS can indicate your location within a "few meters", GPS is only reliable
> within a football field sized area.
>
> John R.
>
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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 21:27:05 -0500
From: Jean Marc Chartier
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - V-10 Horsepower vs. torque

KWkM3 aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
> All I know is that I prefer an engine that makes a good deal of
> torque at low rpms. =20
>
> I don't understand it. I just like it.
>
> Later,
> Alan >>
>
> Hey, I never claimed to be a good teacher. Anyway, as far as building or
> modifying a truck engine, always strive for the most torque as low in the rpm
> range as possible. High horsepower low torque engines are for racing where you
> only need a narrow rpm range.
>
> Harry


Torque is the ability to do work. Horse Power is how fast
you can do your work.

A simple illustration. Two different engines; #1 has 250
HP and 400 lbs ft of torque and #2 has 200 hp and 400 lbs
ft of torque. Load them both at the limit of their torque
and measure the rpm of both engines. Both will have a the
same rpm. Engine #1 will have reached max rpm first.
Take two more engines; #3 has 500hp and 500 lbs ft of
torque and #4 has 400 hp and 600 lbs ft of torque. Load
them both to 550 lbs ft of torque. #3 will stall and #4
will still turn.

Now things should either be real clear of more messed up
than ever. Glad I could help. ;-)

Regards

Jean Marc Chartier
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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 23:22:40 -0500
From: "Todd E."
Subject: FTE 97up - SD V-10 Noise & Vibration

To all:

I have noticed a problem with my engine, and would like to know if others have experienced it, what the cause may be, and what will Ford do about it?

I just got my F-250 SD 6.8L V-10, SC LB 4x4 3.73LS 5spd manual on Wednesday, I drove it 600 miles since then, and have noticed a problem with the engine. Engine noise gets extremely loud from 2200 to 2400 rpm with peek noise occuring at 2250 rpm. With the 3.73 axle and 5th gear, this occurs between 72-77 mph. The noise and increased vibration occur in all gears, but its most noticeable in 5th, as the engine spends more time passing through this rpm range at the higher gears. Another observation to
go along with this is that if coasting down a hill, and dropping from 2500 rpm through 2200 rpm without applying the gas, their is barely any noticeable increase in noise or vibration, but when going uphill and pushing on the gas trying to accelerate up through this range, the noise is extremely loud, and the vibration is evident. I know this is a problem, and it really feels like I would be damaging the engine if I maintained speeds within those rpm ranges, not to mention my hearing. If anyone can
give me any help it would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Todd

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Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 23:45:55 -0500
From: "Anthony Ciarfello"
Subject: FTE 97up - recall and oil burning

I brought my truck in for the lug net and leaf spring recall. They couldn't
do either they didn't have the parts. I mentioned about oil burning. they
said it is normal to burn 1qt every 1000 miles, so at 3000miles It would
burn 3qts of oil. what does anybody think. also I ran the first 2100miles on
2qts of oil before even knowing, hope no harm done to engine, dealer didn't
prep right


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Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 23:09:27 -0600
From: "Mike Fairleigh"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - recall and oil burning

I think the quart every 1,000 miles is a crock of you-know-what, but that's
consistent with the other manufacturers. In fact, Chrysler considers a
quart every 800 miles normal.

Personally, however, if I'd just paid big $$$ for a new truck and found that
it only had 2 qts in it, I would 1) kick myself hard for not checking it
upon delivery, and 2) try very hard to get some sort of relief from Ford (or
your dealer, more likely, since they had a responsibility to check it). You
can't prove that the low level caused any damage; on the other hand, even
though a quart every 1,000 miles is "normal", we all know that's crap, and
so does the dealer. If they agree that it only had 2 qts in it, then by
definition they also agree that they made a mistake. They can't prove that....


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