97up-list-digest Wednesday, May 20 1998 Volume 01 : Number 088



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1997 and Newer Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

FTE 97up - Exhaust Brake
FTE 97up - WHERE IS THE TON?
FTE 97up - rumblings
Re: FTE 97up - Exhaust Brake for Super Duty
RE: FTE 97up - WHERE IS THE TON?
FTE 97up - ADMIN: Another list vote
Re: FTE 97up - Recall on 97 & 98 Ford Trucks
Re: FTE 97up - Exhaust Brake for Super Duty
Re: FTE 97up - Recall on 97 & 98 Ford Trucks
Re: FTE 97up - Recall on 97 & 98 Ford Trucks
Re: FTE 97up - Recall on 97 & 98 Ford Trucks
Re: FTE 97up - Recall on 97 & 98 Ford Trucks
Re: FTE 97up - Recall on 97 & 98 Ford Trucks
Re: FTE 97up - Recall on 97 & 98 Ford Trucks
FTE 97up - American vs Japanese
Re: FTE 97up - Recall on 97 & 98 Ford Trucks

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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 08:40:27 -0500
From: Jim Cole
Subject: FTE 97up - Exhaust Brake

I could have this wrong..since I'm not even a truck owner(yet) ..but from
what I understand its for slowing a vehicle down. You kick it in when you
want to slow the vehicle down without riding the brakes hard. I've ridden
with the big Semi towtruck guys before and they swear by them..they keep
brake pads WAY longer than without having the exhaust brake. Its really
kinda a neat idea. I dont have any first hand technical knowledge on them.

- -Jim


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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 09:47:40 -0400
From: "John M. Sanders"
Subject: FTE 97up - WHERE IS THE TON?

I am very curious, and can't find the answer anywhere. Maybe an old
hand in this group will cure me:

So, an F250 is a 3/4 Ton and an F350 is a one ton pickup truck.
Where is the ton... GVW is 9900#, can pull 13000# or so, etc.

WHERE IS THE TON?

John, the "New Kid on the Block"
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 08:07:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carlos Lawton
Subject: FTE 97up - rumblings

I have a '97 F-150 w/the 4.2L V6 and the 5-spd transmission. At idle,
the engine begins making a very noticable rumbling and vibration as
the rpms begin to decrease. This is happening when rolling or when
stopped. I've seen some other posts about this, but haven't found a
resolution. Any know a fix? Other than that, the truck is awesome.




_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?

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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:50:25 -0400
From: Chad Royse
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Exhaust Brake for Super Duty

Stopping!! It enhances the effect of down shifting and using the engine to slow you
down. And as Robert explained, it really helps in diesels due to the fact their
engine speed is controlled by fuel only. I've seen kits for gassers, but never heard
of any one using them. Their throttle bodies provide enough air restriction for
decent engine braking.

Chad

BigFords1 wrote:
>
> Thanks man. Even though I didn't understand it very much. What is it's
> purpose?
> Better mileage, More torque, towing capacity?
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:10:57 -0500
From: "Beaman, James"
Subject: RE: FTE 97up - WHERE IS THE TON?

John Sanders wrote:

> So, an F250 is a 3/4 Ton and an F350 is a one ton pickup truck.
> Where is the ton... GVW is 9900#, can pull 13000# or so, etc.
>
> WHERE IS THE TON?
>
I am pretty sure these designations of 1/2, 3/4 and 1 ton are holdovers from
the early days of pickups when this really was their approximate payload
capacity. Over the years, the payload ratings have increased but the
designations have remained the same. Actually, before it was dropped, I
think the F100 was pretty close to a true 1/2 ton since it was only rated to
carry about 1000 lbs payload in the bed. I was looking at a friend's and
the GVWR was only 4700 lb. as I recall. With a 3500 lb. truck weight and a
200lb. driver, 1000 lbs. is left over.

James Beaman
james.beaman lmco.com
Houston, Texas
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:11:04 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: FTE 97up - ADMIN: Another list vote

As requested several times over the last few months, a vote
to start a performance oriented list has been added to the
voting center on the web site. This list would be for
discussion of performance, hot-rod and street-rod issues for
all years and models of Ford trucks. This list will be
dedicated to the pursuit of power!

Point your browser to the main web site and click on "voting".
Voting expires in two weeks. If passed, this new list would
be administered by list member Keith Srb, who has volunteered
to take on the job.

Ken Payne
CoAdmin, Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:52:22 -0700
From: WiNk
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Recall on 97 & 98 Ford Trucks

Chad,

I have just concluded my second arbitration on the F-150. I either don't know anything
about trucks or cars or everyone else don't know about them.
WHining alternator, whining transmission, clunks from the rear end, rear end whine,
drive line vibrations at 65mph. The xmission pump is changed, new read end gears, new
rear end housing, new water pump, etc etc. The interior of the truck is great, luv the
whole thing but mechanically the FORD F-150 STINKS.

I know of many situations where the drive line vibrates, we drove another F-150 (97) and
it had all of the problems that I have but worst because I have 37K vice 42K+.

My series must be the guinea pig series. I find the problems so that others won't have
them. I am Ford's test driver I guess.

Chad Royse wrote:

> You're the first person I've heard of that was truly disappointed with their new
> F-series. Every one I know loves there's. What exactly about the driveline are you
> unhappy with?
>
> Just curious,
> Chad
>
> WiNk wrote:
> >
> > Glenn,
> >
> > Not being certain about the following info I would suggest that you check it out
> > with some other sources.
> > The way I understand the wheel situation is that Ford stopped using the tapered
> > wheel nuts. They are now using "O" rings to center the wheels and then locking
> > the wheel down with wheel nuts that are "flat" rather than coned shaped. The
> > result of this is that the nuts loosen after awhile, and need to torqued again
> > aftre 500 miles or so. Also, some wheel studs are breaking and the wheels are
> > falling off of the vehicles.
> >
> > I have a 97 with 38K, 4.6, 3.55 with tow package. I have to say it is the WORST
> > truck that I ever owned. I am in arbitration with the truck at the moment. I
> > really do like the amenities included in the interior but I have to say that the
> > drive line just PLAIN stinks in this vehicle. I believe that the engines is OK
> > but that drive line is something else again.
> = Ford Truck Enthusiasts ==============================================
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:57:26 -0700
From: WiNk
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Exhaust Brake for Super Duty

When the both valves are closed the valve springs have nothing to do with the back
pressure. The pressure is in the cylinder and not on the valve spring side of the
force. Preventing the exhaust from exiting would increase cylinder pressure when
both valves are closed. Also you have to consider that the back pressure could
feed back through the intake valves. Am I missing something here?


RAMWORKER wrote:

> In a message dated 5/17/98 10:30:20 PM Central Daylight Time,
> BigFords1 aol.com writes:
>
> >
>
> Hi David,
>
> Check out http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.bd-vfi.com
> It's a device similar to the old heat riser valves used on gasoline engines,
> it's use on diesels is to create pressure in the cylinders to cause a
> compression braking effect, which diesels don't have because of their
> "unthrottled design." It is designed to not overcome the exhaust valve spring
> tension with the associated destruction this would cause, i.e., less
> backpressure than the exhaust spring can overcome.
>
> Best Regards,
> Robert Stout
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:42:51 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Recall on 97 & 98 Ford Trucks

At 12:52 PM 5/19/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Chad,
>
>I have just concluded my second arbitration on the F-150. I either don't
know anything
>about trucks or cars or everyone else don't know about them.
>WHining alternator, whining transmission, clunks from the rear end, rear
end whine,
>drive line vibrations at 65mph. The xmission pump is changed, new read
end gears, new
>rear end housing, new water pump, etc etc. The interior of the truck is
great, luv the
>whole thing but mechanically the FORD F-150 STINKS.

Shouldn't this last line read
"...mechanically my FORD F-150 STINKS."
^^



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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:07:35 -0700
From: WiNk
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Recall on 97 & 98 Ford Trucks

Ken,
I would say "my" but there are many more out there that have the same
problem/s. For the folks who drive around town the vehicle is probably OK,
however I do more than around town. I am told by the factory reps that the
rear end gears will whine more when towing a trailer. After paying for a CD
changer, I don't think that I need whining from any mechanical component.

Comparing other vehicles to the Ford I would take the Ford for convenience
items. GM has the jack on the floor in the storage space (how weird) and Dodge
has the same but the jack is a lot smaller and could be stored under the hood
somehow. The best deal of all with the Ford is the back seat folding over
and making a metal floor. THis is a nice feature and one of the main reasons
that I bought the three door to begin with.

I like the lumbar support, the cup holders, rear view mirror, radio/tape/cd
controls and functions. The locking tail gate is a plus too, along with the
mechanism that drops the spare tire. I hear that the gears used to drop the
spare are plastic and do break easily. Ford did a good job on the interior
but severly missed the mark on chassis and drive line components in "my"
truck. I have a Monday morning truck I suppose.




Ken Payne wrote:

> At 12:52 PM 5/19/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >Chad,
> >
> >I have just concluded my second arbitration on the F-150. I either don't
> know anything
> >about trucks or cars or everyone else don't know about them.
> >WHining alternator, whining transmission, clunks from the rear end, rear
> end whine,
> >drive line vibrations at 65mph. The xmission pump is changed, new read
> end gears, new
> >rear end housing, new water pump, etc etc. The interior of the truck is
> great, luv the
> >whole thing but mechanically the FORD F-150 STINKS.
>
> Shouldn't this last line read
> "...mechanically my FORD F-150 STINKS."
> ^^
>
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:17:26 -0400
From: Bill
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Recall on 97 & 98 Ford Trucks

Nothing new, my sons 1997 F-150 has 29k on it, so far the rear end went, now the
transmission is on its way out, rear end has clunked every since it was repaired.

WiNk wrote:

> Chad,
>
> I have just concluded my second arbitration on the F-150. I either don't know anything
> about trucks or cars or everyone else don't know about them.
> WHining alternator, whining transmission, clunks from the rear end, rear end whine,
> drive line vibrations at 65mph. The xmission pump is changed, new read end gears, new
> rear end housing, new water pump, etc etc. The interior of the truck is great, luv the
> whole thing but mechanically the FORD F-150 STINKS.
>
> I know of many situations where the drive line vibrates, we drove another F-150 (97) and
> it had all of the problems that I have but worst because I have 37K vice 42K+.
>
> My series must be the guinea pig series. I find the problems so that others won't have
> them. I am Ford's test driver I guess.
>
> Chad Royse wrote:
>
> > You're the first person I've heard of that was truly disappointed with their new
> > F-series. Every one I know loves there's. What exactly about the driveline are you
> > unhappy with?
> >
> > Just curious,
> > Chad
> >
> > WiNk wrote:
> > >
> > > Glenn,
> > >
> > > Not being certain about the following info I would suggest that you check it out
> > > with some other sources.
> > > The way I understand the wheel situation is that Ford stopped using the tapered
> > > wheel nuts. They are now using "O" rings to center the wheels and then locking
> > > the wheel down with wheel nuts that are "flat" rather than coned shaped. The
> > > result of this is that the nuts loosen after awhile, and need to torqued again
> > > aftre 500 miles or so. Also, some wheel studs are breaking and the wheels are
> > > falling off of the vehicles.
> > >
> > > I have a 97 with 38K, 4.6, 3.55 with tow package. I have to say it is the WORST
> > > truck that I ever owned. I am in arbitration with the truck at the moment. I
> > > really do like the amenities included in the interior but I have to say that the
> > > drive line just PLAIN stinks in this vehicle. I believe that the engines is OK
> > > but that drive line is something else again.
> > = Ford Truck Enthusiasts ==============================================
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> > "unsubscribe 97up-list" in the message body.
> > =======================================================================
>
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 23:13:47 EDT
From: BigFords1
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Recall on 97 & 98 Ford Trucks

I have a 97 F-150 5.4 liter V-8 and I have NEVER had 1, not one problem with
it!
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 23:28:19 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Recall on 97 & 98 Ford Trucks

At 03:07 PM 5/19/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Ken,
>I would say "my" but there are many more out there that have the same
>problem/s. For the folks who drive around town the vehicle is probably OK,
>however I do more than around town. I am told by the factory reps that the
>rear end gears will whine more when towing a trailer. After paying for a CD
>changer, I don't think that I need whining from any mechanical component.
>
>Comparing other vehicles to the Ford I would take the Ford for convenience
>items. GM has the jack on the floor in the storage space (how weird) and Dodge
>has the same but the jack is a lot smaller and could be stored under the hood
>somehow. The best deal of all with the Ford is the back seat folding over
>and making a metal floor. THis is a nice feature and one of the main reasons
>that I bought the three door to begin with.
>
>I like the lumbar support, the cup holders, rear view mirror, radio/tape/cd
>controls and functions. The locking tail gate is a plus too, along with the
>mechanism that drops the spare tire. I hear that the gears used to drop the
>spare are plastic and do break easily. Ford did a good job on the interior
>but severly missed the mark on chassis and drive line components in "my"
>truck. I have a Monday morning truck I suppose.
>
>

It really is a shame that Ford chose to toss the twin I-beam which
had worked so well for nearly 30 years in favor of something weaker
to appease the truck buyers who want just a "bigger car." As to the
rear end whining, what's the ratio you're running on them?

Ken

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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:56:28 -0700
From: WiNk
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Recall on 97 & 98 Ford Trucks

Very good for you BigFord and I hope you have continued success with the truck.
Maybe if we narrowed the data to more specific times of purchase or VIN number
series we probably could find out that the problem trucks come from one source,
and good trucks from another source. I for one would like to know what
production runs are having problems and would more than be happy to have a list
of a few hundred defective trucks to bring to arbitration or to court.



I have an second arbitration decision coming down in the next seven days. Hope
that they give me my money back OR fix the damn truck. The first decision went
completely in my favor but Ford wouldn;t act on the problems by saying that the
problems were normal for the vehicle. NUTS! to that engineer. I figure I have
another Thalidamide, or tobacco employee scenario going. They all know what is
wrong but won;t fess up!




BigFords1 wrote:

> I have a 97 F-150 5.4 liter V-8 and I have NEVER had 1, not one problem with
> it!
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 00:08:38 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: FTE 97up - American vs Japanese

Someone requested this, I haven't done the research on the trucks yet,
just the autos. This does, however, give you a good idea about quality.
Information came from Edmunds.

I picked the major companies, not all (getting tired of web browsing).
Did not include sports cars as they skewed the value and reliability
averages (both Japanese and American) and not all companies had them.
I guess its because people pay a premium for and rag sport cars. I
did not include a model if both data items not available. I choose 1996
models as it gives a mid-term ranking, verses brand new and "old". New
cars still have the "puppy-dog" or "I'm in love" syndrome.

>From Edmunds, first number is reliability, 2nd is value.
Year model 1996.

Ford
Aerostar 8.5 9.3
Aspire 8.1 6.8
Bronco 8.3 7.0
Crown Vic 8.5 8.3
Escort 8.7 7.0
Explorer 8.6 8.1
Taurus 8.0 7.1
Average 8.38 7.65

Chevy
Astro 8.4 8.7
Beretta 7.8 4.1
Blazer 7.8 5.0
Caprice 7.5 8.4
Cavalier 7.8 6.1
Corsica 8.7 5.4
Impala 7.8 8.3
Lumina 8.0 6.6
Lumina van 7.4 7.4
Suburban 7.6 7.7
Tahoe 7.7 7.7
Average 7.86 6.85

Toyota
Forerunner 9.0 3.3
Avalon 9.1 4.0
Camry 8.8 4.6
Celica 9.7 5.9
Corolla 9.3 3.9
Paseo 9.3 3.4
Previa 9.1 7.5
Tercel 9.1 4.1
Average 9.175 4.58

Honda
Accord 8.8 6.0
Civic 9.0 7.1
Del Sol 9.0 2.7
Passport 8.4 6.7
Prelude 9.5 2.3
Average 8.94 4.96

BMW
3 series 9.0 2.0

Dodge
Caravan 6.7 6.6
Intrepid 8.1 8.9
Neon 8.4 4.7
Average 7.73 6.73

Chyrsler
Concord 8.2 8.9
LHS 8.3 7.7
New Yorker 8.3 7.7
Town & Country 7.7 6.9
Average 8.125 7.8

Buick
Century 8.7 7.7
Le Sabre 8.5 8.3
Park Ave 8.8 8.3
Regal 8.3 7.4
Roadmaster 7.1 8.4
Skylark 8.6 7.9
Average 8.33 8.0

Cadillac
Deville 8.3 6.6
Eldorado 7.8 5.1
Fleetwood 7.6 6.6
Seville 7.8 5.1
Average 7.87 5.85

Isuzu
Rodeo 8.4 6.7
Trooper 9.2 6.3
Average 8.8 6.5

Lincoln
Towncar 9.0 7.1
Mark 8 9.0 5.7
Continental 7.9 6.0
Average 8.63 6.26

Mazda
626 8.7 4.3
MPV 8.5 5.6
Protege 8.9 4.7
Average 8.7 4.86

Mercedes
C Class 9.0 5.7
E Class 9.9 3.4
Average 9.45 4.55

Mercury
Grand Marquis 8.5 8.3
Sable 8.4 6.9
Tracer 8.8 5.6
Villager 8.2 8.6
Average 8.47 7.35

Mitsubishi
Galant 8.2 4.9
Mirage 8.3 3.6
Montero 9.0 3.9
Average 8.5 4.13

Nissan
Altima 8.9 5.4
Maxima 8.8 4.9
Pathfinder 7.8 6.1
Quest 8.2 8.6
Sentra 9.2 3.6
Average 8.58 5.72


Ranked by Value
Buick 8.33 8.0 8.16
Chrysler 8.12 7.8 7.96
Ford 8.38 7.65 8.01
Mercury 8.47 7.35 7.91
Chevy 7.86 6.85 7.35
Dodge 7.73 6.73 7.23
Isuzu 8.8 6.5 7.65
Lincoln 8.63 6.26 7.44
Cadillac 7.87 5.85 6.86
Nissan 8.58 5.72 7.15
Honda 8.94 4.96 6.95
Mazda 8.7 4.86 6.78
Toyota 9.175 4.58 6.87
Mercedes 9.45 4.55 7.0
Mitsubishi 8.5 4.13 6.31
BMW 9.0 2.0 5.5

My conclusion: Value of American vehicles on average: 7.06
Value of Japanese vehicles on average: 5.12
Value of German vehicles on average : 3.27

Ranked by Reliability
Mercedes 9.45 4.55 7.0
Toyota 9.17 4.58 6.87
BMW 9.0 2.0 5.5
Honda 8.94 4.96 6.95
Isuzu 8.8 6.5 7.65
Mazda 8.7 4.86 6.78
Lincoln 8.63 6.26 7.44
Nissan 8.58 5.72 7.15
Mitsubishi 8.5 4.13 6.31
Mercury 8.47 7.35 7.91
Ford 8.38 7.65 8.01
Buick 8.33 8.0 8.16
Chrysler 8.12 7.8 7.96
Cadillac 7.87 5.85 6.86
Chevy 7.86 6.85 7.35
Dodge 7.73 6.73 7.23

My conclusion: Reliability of American vehicles on average: 8.17
Reliability of Japanese vehicles on average: 8.78 Reliability of German vehicles on average : 9.22

Ranked by average score
Buick 8.33 8.0 8.16
Ford 8.38 7.65 8.01
Chrysler 8.12 7.8 7.96
Mercury 8.47 7.35 7.91
Isuzu 8.8 6.5 7.65
Lincoln 8.63 6.26 7.44
Chevy 7.86 6.85 7.35
Dodge 7.73 6.73 7.23
Nissan 8.58 5.72 7.15
Mercedes 9.45 4.55 7.0
Honda 8.94 4.96 6.95
Toyota 9.175 4.58 6.87
Cadillac 7.87 5.85 6.86
Mazda 8.7 4.86 6.78
Mitsubishi 8.5 4.13 6.31
BMW 9.0 2.0 5.5

My conclusion: Average American vehicles: 7.61
Average Japanese vehicles: 6.96
Average German vehicles : 6.25


In brief, the average American car **does** have lower quality. Its .61 lower,
not much. Its value however, is 1.94 greater. This is 3 times more than the
quality difference! And American cars overall score .65 better when ranked on
value and reliability.

The 3 best buys, in order: Buick, Ford, Chrysler

The 3 worst buys, in order: Mazda, Mitsubishi, BMW

Note that only 1 Japanese auto company was ranked in the top 50th percentile.

My Conclusion: if you buy Japanese (or German) you don't get nearly as much
bang for the buck and the difference in quality is minor.

Ken Payne
CoAdmin, Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 23:12:17 -0700
From: WiNk
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Recall on 97 & 98 Ford Trucks

KEn.
Th rear end is 3.55 with a 4.6 and towing package. I'm certain (but haven't
checked it out) that the rear is a straight cut gear. If so that type of gear does
whine at some speed but is less costly to machine.

An alternator whine that comes and goes is a defective alternator as far as I am
concerned. A transmission that whines at increasing loudness is also a BAD
transmission. Things that whine shudder and clunk will break at some time or
other. I haven't heard any other vehicles whine like this one does.



Ken Payne wrote:

> At 03:07 PM 5/19/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >Ken,
> >I would say "my" but there are many more out there that have the same
> >problem/s. For the folks who drive around town the vehicle is probably OK,
> >however I do more than around town. I am told by the factory reps that the
> >rear end gears will whine more when towing a trailer. After paying for a CD
> >changer, I don't think that I need whining from any mechanical component.
> >
> >Comparing other vehicles to the Ford I would take the Ford for convenience
> >items. GM has the jack on the floor in the storage space (how weird) and Dodge
> >has the same but the jack is a lot smaller and could be stored under the hood
> >somehow. The best deal of all with the Ford is the back seat folding over
> >and making a metal floor. THis is a nice feature and one of the main reasons
> >that I bought the three door to begin with.
> >
> >I like the lumbar support, the cup holders, rear view mirror, radio/tape/cd
> >controls and functions. The locking tail gate is a plus too, along with the
> >mechanism that drops the spare tire. I hear that the gears used to drop the
> >spare are plastic and do break easily. Ford did a good job on the interior
> >but severly missed the mark on chassis and drive line components in "my"
> >truck. I have a Monday morning truck I suppose.
> >
> >
>
> It really is a shame that Ford chose to toss the twin I-beam which
> had worked so well for nearly 30 years in favor of something weaker....


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