97up-list-digest Thursday, June 4 1998 Volume 01 : Number 107



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1997 and Newer Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

Re: FTE 97up - RECALL
FTE 97up - Tachometer
Re: FTE 97up - RECALL
FTE 97up - STAR/GEM
FTE 97up - Engine Knock on 97 Expedtion
Re: FTE 97up - RECALL
Re: FTE 97up - Engine Knock on 97 Expedtion
Re: FTE 97up - Engine Knock on 97 Expedtion

=======================================================================

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 14:54:56 -0700
From: WiNk
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - RECALL

Nathan,
I lost the thread on this one.

I should have dated my VW experiences. In the 50's the 36 horse VW was a dream,
never fell apart, had seamless gas lines, threaded screw holes that were drilled
and tapped, plus a bunch of other good stuff, including the little pop out arm,
turn signals. I think that after about 62 or so that the VW began to have
problems with chattering clutches, valves cracking, engine burn outs, etc etc.
Maybe I am thinking about the first horse power increase as the beginning of VW
problems.
WiNk



Union Auto wrote:

> >From my experience VW has had more quality problems than American companies.
> We've had more problems with the cars that used to be made by Mazda than
> with the other Ford Products (I.E. Probe and first few years of Tracer
> 1990?) so I don't buy the other people make it work theory. Cars break
> PERIOD. If they didn't you'd buy them at Wal Mart.
>
> Nathan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WiNk
> To: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
> Date: Thursday, June 04, 1998 2:25 PM
> Subject: Re: FTE 97up - RECALL
>
> >TSK! TSK! in the past it would almost be impossible to take a Volkswagon
> back to the garage
> >for a repair. This is also true of some of the Japanese cars. The facts of
> the matter are
> >that GOOD quality control means NO RECALLS. IF you have recalls the facts
> (stats) are that
> >the QC is weak. Results of poor QC is REWORK, or attempts by the company
> to pass the cost off
> >to the consumer.
> >REWORK cost three times more to do than doing it right the first time.
> >
> >This could go on and on. I guess my points should be understood by now.
> >
> >Total Quality Management (TQM) is the key to NO RECALLS and a 30 to 40%
> increase in the bottom
> >line, if you will!
> >
> >
> >Chad Royse wrote:
> >
> >> WiNk, I think you're a little too wound up about this. Profits are more
> than just
> >> sales. That's why I mentioned the bottom line. If Ford guaranteed
> everyone a
> >> replacement vehicle for every recall, it would drive prices sky high.
> You might as
> >> well go out and buy a high-end yuppiffied Mercedes SUV.
> >>
> >> Chad
> >>
> >> WiNk wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Nothing is FREE is right but everything that we pay for should be
> provided. If enough
> >> > complaints are logged against a company then the board of directors
> will get on the
> >> > CEO;s butt in a heavy way. OR the company will go out of business.
> That is the way the
> >> > capitalist system works. No sales ! No profit! and no board of
> directors. Competition
> >> > is supposed to keep the price right.
> >> >
> >> > Chad Royse wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Remember, nothing is free. Sometimes sh!t happens and if Ford is
> willing to take
> >> > > responsibillity for it, that's great. But if every one starts
> complaining about
> >> > > wanting a replacement vehicle even for recalls, then bottom lines are
> going to start
> >> > > suffering. If they suffer too much, we are the ones who'll pay.
> >> > >
> >> > > Bill wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Well guys there's one good dealer in Ann Arbor, Michigan, sells
> the Lincoln and
> >> > > > will pick your Lincoln up within 50 miles and leave you a new
> Lincoln to drive
> >> > > > with a full tank of gas, when warranty repairs have been made to
> your car they
> >> > > > return the car and pick up the loaner. You have to love a dealer
> like that!
> >> > > > These recalls are getting out of hand, its only done to keep the
> government off
> >> > > > there backs. Next time you buy a $34K truck demand a free loaner
> be wrote into
> >> > > > the sale agreement, if the dealer wouldn't do it try another dealer
> (sometimes it
> >> > > > works). Take anything back to K-Mart and exchange it no questions
> ask, auto
> >> > > > dealers sure should be able to spring for a car of some kind to
> drive. Several in
> >> > > > the lower Michigan will, but you have to let it be known you expect
> it and will
> >> > > > not settle for less.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Ken Payne wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > At 02:59 AM 6/2/98 EDT, you wrote:
> >> > > > > >Why is it that no dealer will give me a truck to use for the day
> when my
> >> > > > > truck
> >> > > > > >is in for the recall?My feelings are,if you build a truck,sell a
> truck(FOR
> >> > > > > >$34000.00)then you should provide a truck for the guy who has to
> lose a truck
> >> > > > > >for a day because you screwed up building it.
> >> > > > > > Mark
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > This is pretty standard with all auto companies. I don't
> >> > > > > see how a dealer could possibly offer a loaner to hundred
> >> > > > > (thousands?) of people coming in with recall notices.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Ken Payne
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > = Ford Truck Enthusiasts
> ==============================================
> >> > > > > Send posts to: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
> >> > > > > Send unsubscribe requests to: majordomo ford-trucks.com with
> >> > > > > "unsubscribe 97up-list" in the message body.
> >> > > > >
> =======================================================================
> >> > > >
> >> > > > = Ford Truck Enthusiasts
> ==============================================
> >> > > > Send posts to: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
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> >> > > > "unsubscribe 97up-list" in the message body.
> >> > > >
> =======================================================================
> >> > >
> >> > > = Ford Truck Enthusiasts
> ==============================================
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> >> > > "unsubscribe 97up-list" in the message body.
> >> > >
> =======================================================================
> >> >
> >> > = Ford Truck Enthusiasts ==============================================
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> >> > "unsubscribe 97up-list" in the message body.
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> >> = Ford Truck Enthusiasts ==============================================
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> >> "unsubscribe 97up-list" in the message body.
> >> =======================================================================
> >
> >
> >
> >= Ford Truck Enthusiasts ==============================================
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>
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 18:01:40 -0400
From: Doug Moore
Subject: FTE 97up - Tachometer

I was look for a tachometer gauge (RPM gauge) that would work in a Club
Wagon and suggestions on where to mount it. My wife is concerned that it
will not look good and need to be child proof.

Thanks
Doug
dougm ami.com


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 19:33:18 -0400
From: Mark Lee
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - RECALL

The NEW VW Beetle (every one of them) has already been recalled for
wiring problems which can cause fires. So far only 4 have burned up,
but given how few have been made so far, it is probably a reasonably
high percentage. So much for TQM....

WiNk wrote:
>
> TSK! TSK! in the past it would almost be impossible to take a Volkswagon back to the garage
> for a repair. This is also true of some of the Japanese cars. The facts of the matter are
> that GOOD quality control means NO RECALLS. IF you have recalls the facts (stats) are that
> the QC is weak. Results of poor QC is REWORK, or attempts by the company to pass the cost off
> to the consumer.
> REWORK cost three times more to do than doing it right the first time.
>
> This could go on and on. I guess my points should be understood by now.
>
> Total Quality Management (TQM) is the key to NO RECALLS and a 30 to 40% increase in the bottom
> line, if you will!
>
> Chad Royse wrote:
>
> > WiNk, I think you're a little too wound up about this. Profits are more than just
> > sales. That's why I mentioned the bottom line. If Ford guaranteed everyone a
> > replacement vehicle for every recall, it would drive prices sky high. You might as
> > well go out and buy a high-end yuppiffied Mercedes SUV.
> >
> > Chad
> >
> > WiNk wrote:
> > >
> > > Nothing is FREE is right but everything that we pay for should be provided. If enough
> > > complaints are logged against a company then the board of directors will get on the
> > > CEO;s butt in a heavy way. OR the company will go out of business. That is the way the
> > > capitalist system works. No sales ! No profit! and no board of directors. Competition
> > > is supposed to keep the price right.
> > >
> > > Chad Royse wrote:
> > >
> > > > Remember, nothing is free. Sometimes sh!t happens and if Ford is willing to take
> > > > responsibillity for it, that's great. But if every one starts complaining about
> > > > wanting a replacement vehicle even for recalls, then bottom lines are going to start
> > > > suffering. If they suffer too much, we are the ones who'll pay.
> > > >
> > > > Bill wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Well guys there's one good dealer in Ann Arbor, Michigan, sells the Lincoln and
> > > > > will pick your Lincoln up within 50 miles and leave you a new Lincoln to drive
> > > > > with a full tank of gas, when warranty repairs have been made to your car they
> > > > > return the car and pick up the loaner. You have to love a dealer like that!
> > > > > These recalls are getting out of hand, its only done to keep the government off
> > > > > there backs. Next time you buy a $34K truck demand a free loaner be wrote into
> > > > > the sale agreement, if the dealer wouldn't do it try another dealer (sometimes it
> > > > > works). Take anything back to K-Mart and exchange it no questions ask, auto
> > > > > dealers sure should be able to spring for a car of some kind to drive. Several in
> > > > > the lower Michigan will, but you have to let it be known you expect it and will
> > > > > not settle for less.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ken Payne wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > At 02:59 AM 6/2/98 EDT, you wrote:
> > > > > > >Why is it that no dealer will give me a truck to use for the day when my
> > > > > > truck
> > > > > > >is in for the recall?My feelings are,if you build a truck,sell a truck(FOR
> > > > > > >$34000.00)then you should provide a truck for the guy who has to lose a truck
> > > > > > >for a day because you screwed up building it.
> > > > > > > Mark
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is pretty standard with all auto companies. I don't
> > > > > > see how a dealer could possibly offer a loaner to hundred
> > > > > > (thousands?) of people coming in with recall notices.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ken Payne
> > > > > >
> > > > > > = Ford Truck Enthusiasts ==============================================
> > > > > > Send posts to: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
> > > > > > Send unsubscribe requests to: majordomo ford-trucks.com with
> > > > > > "unsubscribe 97up-list" in the message body.
> > > > > > =======================================================================
> > > > >
> > > > > = Ford Truck Enthusiasts ==============================================
> > > > > Send posts to: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
> > > > > Send unsubscribe requests to: majordomo ford-trucks.com with
> > > > > "unsubscribe 97up-list" in the message body.
> > > > > =======================================================================
> > > >
> > > > = Ford Truck Enthusiasts ==============================================
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> > >
> > > = Ford Truck Enthusiasts ==============================================
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>
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 19:55:06 -0400
From: Claude King
Subject: FTE 97up - STAR/GEM

What sort of diagnostic tester am I going to need to talk to the computers in the new Fords.

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 19:17:02 -0600
From: Morgan
Subject: FTE 97up - Engine Knock on 97 Expedtion

On a previous post from Mark Lee, he was experiencing what Ford calls
"Cold Start Knock". It's primarly a 5.4L problem, but is/has occurred with
the 4.6L. The 5.4L is built only at the Windsor plant and they also produce
the 4.6L. I suspect a problem of quality control, due to the huge demand for
the 5.4L in the F-250LD's, Expeditions, and Navigators. My 97 F-150 5.4L
started knocking at 1600 miles and continues(it's getting worse) at 16000
miles. I have been in contact with several 5.4L and one 4.6L owner with the
same problem. Two of these people had engines replaced and the knock
returned(one was a new engine from Windsor and the other a rebuilt from a
Ford vendor). The Windsor plant continues to say they are "working" on the
problem and not to worry---I'm worried! They do tell me I will get a new
engine when the "problem" is fixed.
Basically this is piston slap inside the cylinder caused by the short
skirt on the Triton piston and excessive clearance. It happens upon
start-up when the engine is "cold"(hasn't been run for several hours). After
3 to 5 minutes at idle, the piston(s) warm up and expand to "fill" the hole.
The knocking sound is a very distinct rattle somewhat like a deisel engine.
Mine seems to be coming from 2 or 3 clyinders. I'd like to hear from others
on this situation.
Dennis Morgan 406-265-2711 (office)
Havre, MT 406-265-2358 (home)

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 18:42:26 -0700
From: WiNk
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - RECALL

Mark,
Afix blame in the proper place with the proper facts. TQM works and works well.


Mark Lee wrote:

> The NEW VW Beetle (every one of them) has already been recalled for
> wiring problems which can cause fires. So far only 4 have burned up,
> but given how few have been made so far, it is probably a reasonably
> high percentage. So much for TQM....
>
> WiNk wrote:
> >
> > TSK! TSK! in the past it would almost be impossible to take a Volkswagon back to the garage
> > for a repair. This is also true of some of the Japanese cars. The facts of the matter are
> > that GOOD quality control means NO RECALLS. IF you have recalls the facts (stats) are that
> > the QC is weak. Results of poor QC is REWORK, or attempts by the company to pass the cost off
> > to the consumer.
> > REWORK cost three times more to do than doing it right the first time.
> >
> > This could go on and on. I guess my points should be understood by now.
> >
> > Total Quality Management (TQM) is the key to NO RECALLS and a 30 to 40% increase in the bottom
> > line, if you will!
> >
> > Chad Royse wrote:
> >
> > > WiNk, I think you're a little too wound up about this. Profits are more than just
> > > sales. That's why I mentioned the bottom line. If Ford guaranteed everyone a
> > > replacement vehicle for every recall, it would drive prices sky high. You might as
> > > well go out and buy a high-end yuppiffied Mercedes SUV.
> > >
> > > Chad
> > >
> > > WiNk wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Nothing is FREE is right but everything that we pay for should be provided. If enough
> > > > complaints are logged against a company then the board of directors will get on the
> > > > CEO;s butt in a heavy way. OR the company will go out of business. That is the way the
> > > > capitalist system works. No sales ! No profit! and no board of directors. Competition
> > > > is supposed to keep the price right.
> > > >
> > > > Chad Royse wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Remember, nothing is free. Sometimes sh!t happens and if Ford is willing to take
> > > > > responsibillity for it, that's great. But if every one starts complaining about
> > > > > wanting a replacement vehicle even for recalls, then bottom lines are going to start
> > > > > suffering. If they suffer too much, we are the ones who'll pay.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Well guys there's one good dealer in Ann Arbor, Michigan, sells the Lincoln and
> > > > > > will pick your Lincoln up within 50 miles and leave you a new Lincoln to drive
> > > > > > with a full tank of gas, when warranty repairs have been made to your car they
> > > > > > return the car and pick up the loaner. You have to love a dealer like that!
> > > > > > These recalls are getting out of hand, its only done to keep the government off
> > > > > > there backs. Next time you buy a $34K truck demand a free loaner be wrote into
> > > > > > the sale agreement, if the dealer wouldn't do it try another dealer (sometimes it
> > > > > > works). Take anything back to K-Mart and exchange it no questions ask, auto
> > > > > > dealers sure should be able to spring for a car of some kind to drive. Several in
> > > > > > the lower Michigan will, but you have to let it be known you expect it and will
> > > > > > not settle for less.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ken Payne wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > At 02:59 AM 6/2/98 EDT, you wrote:
> > > > > > > >Why is it that no dealer will give me a truck to use for the day when my
> > > > > > > truck
> > > > > > > >is in for the recall?My feelings are,if you build a truck,sell a truck(FOR
> > > > > > > >$34000.00)then you should provide a truck for the guy who has to lose a truck
> > > > > > > >for a day because you screwed up building it.
> > > > > > > > Mark
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This is pretty standard with all auto companies. I don't
> > > > > > > see how a dealer could possibly offer a loaner to hundred
> > > > > > > (thousands?) of people coming in with recall notices.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ken Payne
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > = Ford Truck Enthusiasts ==============================================
> > > > > > > Send posts to: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
> > > > > > > Send unsubscribe requests to: majordomo ford-trucks.com with
> > > > > > > "unsubscribe 97up-list" in the message body.
> > > > > > > =======================================================================
> > > > > >
> > > > > > = Ford Truck Enthusiasts ==============================================
> > > > > > Send posts to: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
> > > > > > Send unsubscribe requests to: majordomo ford-trucks.com with
> > > > > > "unsubscribe 97up-list" in the message body.
> > > > > > =======================================================================
> > > > >
> > > > > = Ford Truck Enthusiasts ==============================================
> > > > > Send posts to: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
> > > > > Send unsubscribe requests to: majordomo ford-trucks.com with
> > > > > "unsubscribe 97up-list" in the message body.
> > > > > =======================================================================
> > > >
> > > > = Ford Truck Enthusiasts ==============================================
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> > > "unsubscribe 97up-list" in the message body.
> > > =======================================================================
> >
> > = Ford Truck Enthusiasts ==============================================
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> > "unsubscribe 97up-list" in the message body.
> > =======================================================================
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 18:47:55 -0700
From: WiNk
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Engine Knock on 97 Expedtion

The vehicle probably makes a "clack, clack, clack" sound. I have an early 4.6
but haven't heard any engine noise, however I have vibrations at idle and on the
road but haven't figured if it is engine or drive line components, like the
drive shaft, out of balance converter, engine to xmission misalignements. Maybe
it is an out of balance crank. Dunno what I got but the piston slap "maybe"
coming on. Anyone got any ideas?


Morgan wrote:

> On a previous post from Mark Lee, he was experiencing what Ford calls
> "Cold Start Knock". It's primarly a 5.4L problem, but is/has occurred with
> the 4.6L. The 5.4L is built only at the Windsor plant and they also produce
> the 4.6L. I suspect a problem of quality control, due to the huge demand for
> the 5.4L in the F-250LD's, Expeditions, and Navigators. My 97 F-150 5.4L
> started knocking at 1600 miles and continues(it's getting worse) at 16000
> miles. I have been in contact with several 5.4L and one 4.6L owner with the
> same problem. Two of these people had engines replaced and the knock
> returned(one was a new engine from Windsor and the other a rebuilt from a
> Ford vendor). The Windsor plant continues to say they are "working" on the
> problem and not to worry---I'm worried! They do tell me I will get a new
> engine when the "problem" is fixed.
> Basically this is piston slap inside the cylinder caused by the short
> skirt on the Triton piston and excessive clearance. It happens upon
> start-up when the engine is "cold"(hasn't been run for several hours). After
> 3 to 5 minutes at idle, the piston(s) warm up and expand to "fill" the hole.
> The knocking sound is a very distinct rattle somewhat like a deisel engine.
> Mine seems to be coming from 2 or 3 clyinders. I'd like to hear from others
> on this situation.
> Dennis Morgan 406-265-2711 (office)
> Havre, MT 406-265-2358 (home)
>
> = Ford Truck Enthusiasts ==============================================
> Send posts to: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
> Send unsubscribe requests to: majordomo ford-trucks.com with
> "unsubscribe 97up-list" in the message body.
> =======================================================================



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 22:15:30 -0400
From: Mark Lee
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Engine Knock on 97 Expedtion

Thanks for the info Morgan. FYI I now have managed to reduce the noise
on startup by switching to Mobil 1 synthetic oil. Whereas it used to
knock for 3-5 minutes it now only knocks for 5-10 SECONDS! This has
saved my sanity and hopefully some engine parts. Please keep me
posted. Time for a letter to Ford. My warrantee will be up in a few
months and I am not going to let this problem get sloughed off.

Is it logical that the Mobil 1 made such a difference given the
hypothesis regarding engine slap? The knock was really pronounced and
it went away (almost entirely) the very day I changed the oil. It has
been over 10 days now and it has not come back (other than muffled knock
for first 5-10 seconds on cold startup.)

Morgan wrote:
>
> On a previous post from Mark Lee, he was experiencing what Ford calls
> "Cold Start Knock". It's primarly a 5.4L problem, but is/has occurred with
> the 4.6L. The 5.4L is built only at the Windsor plant and they also produce
> the 4.6L. I suspect a problem of quality control, due to the huge demand for
> the 5.4L in the F-250LD's, Expeditions, and Navigators. My 97 F-150 5.4L
> started knocking at 1600 miles and continues(it's getting worse) at 16000
> miles. I have been in contact with several 5.4L and one 4.6L owner with the
> same problem. Two of these people had engines replaced and the knock
> returned(one was a new engine from Windsor and the other a rebuilt from a
> Ford vendor). The Windsor plant continues to say they are "working" on the
> problem and not to worry---I'm worried! They do tell me I will get a new
> engine when the "problem" is fixed.
> Basically this is piston slap inside the cylinder caused by the short
> skirt on the Triton piston and excessive clearance. It happens upon
> start-up when the engine is "cold"(hasn't been run for several hours). After
> 3 to 5 minutes at idle, the piston(s) warm up and expand to "fill" the hole.
> The knocking sound is a very distinct rattle somewhat like a deisel engine.
> Mine seems to be coming from 2 or 3 clyinders. I'd like to hear from others
> on this situation.
> Dennis Morgan 406-265-2711 (office)
> Havre, MT 406-265-2358 (home)
>
> = Ford Truck Enthusiasts ==============================================
> Send posts to: 97up-list ....

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