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Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 03:50:30 -0700 (MST)
From: owner-fordtrucks80up-digest ListService.net (fordtrucks80up-digest)
To: fordtrucks80up-digest ListService.net
Subject: fordtrucks80up-digest V2 #2
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Sender: owner-fordtrucks80up-digest ListService.net


fordtrucks80up-digest Saturday, January 3 1998 Volume 02 : Number 002



=======================================================================
Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1980 And Newer Trucks Digest
Visit our web site: http://www.ford-trucks.com
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email to the same address with the word "help" in the body of the
message.
=======================================================================
In this issue:

Check engine light. [RandalDGazdecki eaton.com]
RE: Weight in back. [RandalDGazdecki eaton.com]
Re: 1999 f250 invoice questions [KNBD87D prodigy.com (MR JOSH J TENNEY)]
Re[4]: new guy, 1999 f250 questions [KNBD87D prodigy.com (MR JOSH J TENNE]
1994 Starting problems [quadrai oberon.ark.com (quadrai)]
Re: 1999 f250 invoice questions [Chad Royse ]
Re: 1999 f250 invoice questions [KNBD87D prodigy.com (MR JOSH J TENNEY)]
Re: 1994 Starting problems [Paul Laughlin ]
F150 popping/creaking revisited ... I fixed mine! ["Grady Byram"
Re: 1999 f250 invoice questions [Chad Royse ]
Re: 1999 f250 invoice questions [KNBD87D prodigy.com (MR JOSH J TENNEY)]
ATG electronic shift improver? [Steven McCullough
Re: 1999 f250 invoice questions [Midwest96 ]
[none] ["Gary Snook" ]
Re: 1999 f250 invoice questions [Gardner ]
Salesmen shenanigans.... [Ken Payne ]
Re: 1999 f250 invoice questions [Midwest96 ]
Re: Salesmen shenanigans.... ["M.Monninger" ]
Re: ["R. Carson" ]
Re: Salesmen shenanigans.... [zeb utalk.org (Lamar Zabielski)]
Re: [Logerman ]

=======================================================================

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 98 09:07:08 EST
From: RandalDGazdecki eaton.com
Subject: Check engine light.

The Suntune Code Scanner is available at most Auto parts stores, but is cheaper through JC Whitney Catalog. If you need a copy of JC Whitney's catalog, go to www.edmunds.com and click on the JC Whitney icon.
Randy
PS sorry this took so long, my computer is NOT Ford tough!!
K.O.T.C.C.
randaldgazdecki eaton.com
"Heart of the N.S.S.N!!"

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 98 09:11:40 EST
From: RandalDGazdecki eaton.com
Subject: RE: Weight in back.

I wouldn't ask that question if I were you!!

Let's just say there is a differing of opinions when I asked that question before. I have a 91 Ranger 2wd and in WI the snow is bad. I put weight directly over the axles and use NEW all-terrain tires. I only put 100lbs of sand tubes and it helps alot. To keep the tubes in place I made a "H" shaped frame of 2X6's sized to fit around the wheel wells and straped to 4 tie-down points. Good luck.
Randy
PS Sorry about the tardiness of this response, but my computer is NOT Ford tough!!
K.O.T.C.C.
randaldgazdecki eaton.com
"Heart of the N.S.S.N!!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:20:51, -0500
From: KNBD87D prodigy.com (MR JOSH J TENNEY)
Subject: Re: 1999 f250 invoice questions

Whoever thinks Ford makes $10,000 per Expedition is very wrong. Also,
whoever thinks the sales reps can whine to Ford to make more money
is also very wrong. Lastly, whoever thinks Ford gives a whole bunch
of kickbacks and incentives for selling is also very wrong. Ford
does't give too many incentives or rebates until the end of the model
year, and then the rebates are a couple hundred bucks, but a smart
consumer would see that and try to reduce thier own cost by that
couple hunderd bucks.
When a dealer makes holdback, which is a petty amount, the sales
person's commission may be enough to bring his family to McDonalds
for dinner, but that is about it. When clothing companies sell
clothes, I don't see anybody negotiating with the retailer down to
cost or just over cost, maybe 3%. I guess some consumers should
learn that everyone else needs to make a living too, not just
themselves. If customers would be satisfied with all the work that
goes in to making a sale and maybe shop around for the best price, a
sales person would be a little bit more happy instead of wasting time
and make a skimpy commission.

Thanks,

Josh

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:36:12, -0500
From: KNBD87D prodigy.com (MR JOSH J TENNEY)
Subject: Re[4]: new guy, 1999 f250 questions

Mr. Bob Ford,

As a sales person myself, I personally feel flamed to the term
"salesweasel" when referring to sales people. Most know a lot more
than you do, and many "sales weasels" are extremely annoyed by your
type that think they "know everything".

Josh

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:32:03 -0800
From: quadrai oberon.ark.com (quadrai)
Subject: 1994 Starting problems

My truck starter turns over and starts off and on. Sometimes I hear just a
click of the solenoid sometimes it starts without problems. Earlier the same
problem existed except turn over slowly and stop like a battery problem. I
replaced the battery. However, one time the solenoid would click but would
not start. Later, everything seemed O.K. I know question the dependability
of the truck starting when I am out. It never has cranked and stopped or not
started.

Need Help !

Tim

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 12:55:03 -0800
From: Chad Royse
Subject: Re: 1999 f250 invoice questions

Sorry you got so offended, but your bend over and pay what we ask attitude
stunk. Many of the Salesman I've worked with had absolutely no hang-ups
about working with invoice prices. The other ones sold one less truck.
And if you depend on your commission just to feed your kids McDonald's,
then PLEASE get a new job for your families sake! Otherwise, quit taking
advantage of your family and using them to make your customers feel
guilty. Oh, and I was the one who made the $10,000/Expedition claim. I
read it out of a TrailerLife several months ago. I was kinda shocked when
I saw it.

Oh and about the "clothes". If people who sell "clothes" are so much
better off, maybe THAT'S what you should do. 3% over cost is only $0.60 on
a $20 shirt. 3% on a $26,000 (invoice) truck is 780 bucks! I would have a
hard time paying $100 over invoice unless I was really treated well. And
it doesn't sound like good customer relations is your primary method of
dealing. Last thing, buying a new truck is not comparable to buying new
socks. When you have that much money at stake, it's a business deal. And
without a lengthy economics lesson, business is buisness and shouldn't
contain non-business items such as McDonald's, Kids, or standards of
living.

If you wish to respond, please do so personally. I don't want to pollute
to a perfectly good mail list.

MR JOSH J TENNEY wrote:

> Whoever thinks Ford makes $10,000 per Expedition is very wrong. Also,
> whoever thinks the sales reps can whine to Ford to make more money
> is also very wrong. Lastly, whoever thinks Ford gives a whole bunch
> of kickbacks and incentives for selling is also very wrong. Ford
> does't give too many incentives or rebates until the end of the model
> year, and then the rebates are a couple hundred bucks, but a smart
> consumer would see that and try to reduce thier own cost by that
> couple hunderd bucks.
> When a dealer makes holdback, which is a petty amount, the sales
> person's commission may be enough to bring his family to McDonalds
> for dinner, but that is about it. When clothing companies sell
> clothes, I don't see anybody negotiating with the retailer down to
> cost or just over cost, maybe 3%. I guess some consumers should
> learn that everyone else needs to make a living too, not just
> themselves. If customers would be satisfied with all the work that
> goes in to making a sale and maybe shop around for the best price, a
> sales person would be a little bit more happy instead of wasting time
> and make a skimpy commission.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Josh
> +-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1980 and Newer --------------+
> | Send posts to fordtrucks80up listservice.net, |
> | List removal instructions on the website. |
> +----------------- Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com -----------------+



- --
Chad

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:13:17, -0500
From: KNBD87D prodigy.com (MR JOSH J TENNEY)
Subject: Re: 1999 f250 invoice questions

Chad,
Maybe YOU should get a new job as a sales person and see how we
actually get treated. I am not a sales person with the bend-the-
customer-over attitude, but most customers (like yourself) have the
bend-the-salesmen-over attitude.
Oh about the clothes and McDonalds compared to buying a truck: Sure
spending $26,000 on a truck is a bit more than $26 for Jeans or
whatever, but spending any sort of money is business, like you said,
"business is business." That is why I made the comparison. I have
had many deals when the customer made and offer and I took it....I
don't have the take-it-at-this-price attitude....if you knew me
personally, which will never happen, you would know that! Trust me,
Ford doesn't quite make $10K per Expedition, but it is an
unreasonable amount!
I am not trying to make you feel bad, and I don't want you to feel
bad for me...your original post made me feel like crap, so I thought
maybe you should see things in my point of view. Holdback on a new
truck, say 3% of $26,000 is $780, like you said. That may seem like
a lot, but after the salesmen's commission, it isn't alot. Sure it
is better than nothing, but it isn't great. There are certain
customers, which buy multiple units per year, that can get away with
buying at holdback. I and my manager would have a hard time letting
a new truck go to any old Joe Blow off the street for invoice,
especially a F-150 supercab 4x4, the most wanted truck. I would
consider you lucky to get all your stuff at invoice....hopefully the
salesman did not tamper with a copy of the invoice before bringing it
to your attention.
I'm not saying that everyone should buy stuff at MSRP, in fact, I
even think that is a rip off, but in my point of view, invoice price
is a secret for dealers only.

Anyway, I don't mean to start arguments about invoice pricing and
commission and who is right and who is wrong, but I don't appreciate
you telling me I should get a new job or worry about my family. In
matter of fact, the family to McDonald's was just an example to show
that sales people don't make a hell of a lot of money selling new
cars. I hope you understand my point of view.
Josh
KNBD87D prodigy.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 11:41:37 -0800
From: Paul Laughlin
Subject: Re: 1994 Starting problems

quadrai wrote:

> My truck starter turns over and starts off and on. Sometimes I hear
> just a
> click of the solenoid sometimes it starts without problems.

Check your battery cables. All of them. You could have corrosion up
inside of the insulation.
Paul in Portland OR

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:59:22 -0600
From: "Grady Byram"
Subject: F150 popping/creaking revisited ... I fixed mine!

Some time back some of us were talking about a popping/creaking noise
coming from under our F150s during low speed parking lot type
manuevers. I got a TSB from my local dealer related to those
symptoms about the need to replace some rivots in the front end ...
well, I haven't done that yet. The service guy suggested that before
I go through the difficult task of replacing those rivots, I clean
and lubricate the points where the transmission crossmember contacts
the frame.

It was really hard to tell where the noise was coming from while
inside the cab so I walked alongside my truck while my friend was
driving and convinced myself that the noise was coming from the
vicinity of the transmission crossmember rather than the front end.
The crossmember is somewhat of a pain to take off but not too bad.
The only really bad part is getting the bolts off and on of the top
part of the crossmember on the driver side -- the fuel line and
emergency brake cable(I think that's what it is) tend to be in the
way. It's a breeze on the passenger side though since there are no
obstructions. Once it is off (don't forget to support the
transmission) I cleaned off all the contact points and put on some
liquid graphite lubricant and then put the crossmember back on.
Voila ... no more annoying creaking noise. Only took a couple of
hours ... would've taken less time but had to make a few trips to the
auto shop for some tools.

Stuff needed (at least for my '95):
* 18mm deep socket for crossmember bolts to frame
* 16mm wrench to keep bolt from turning
* 1/2" for crossmember bolts to transmission.
* Wire drill brush to clean factory gook from contact points on
crossmember and frame.
* Liquid graphite lubricant
* Jack and 2x4s to support transmission

... that's all I can think of ...

... now I get to do the rivots which, I believe, are the problem
behind a rattling/popping in the front end. I'm gonna wait on that
though. I'll probably replace the radius arm bushings at that time
as well.

Hope this helps someone!

Grady
Austin, TX

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 16:16:12 -0800
From: Chad Royse
Subject: Re: 1999 f250 invoice questions

I appreciate your mature outlook and honest opinions. It helps keep this a
"discussion" as opposed to...

As for the $10,000, I am merely quoting what I read. You'd have to take up
discrepancies with TrailerLife Mag. I am obviously assuming they research
their material.

I would like to apologize if I made you "...feel like crap". However,
knowing invoice is the only tool consumers have for gauging how good (or
bad) of a deal they are receiving. Having a sales associate tell you,
"Sure it's a great deal!" Just isn't convincing.

Also, as you probably noticed, I am tough cookie to deal with. Therefore,
have no doubt I am a prepared consumer and paid no more than invoice for my
trucks. I go to the dealerships with all the order numbers and invoice
pricing in hand. I am very picky about what I want, so I insist on
ordering it. I obtain a copy of the "VEHICLE ORDER CONFIRMATION" sheet,
compare it's prices with mine, and obtain a copy of the invoice upon
delivery.

Have a great weekend and New Year,
Chad Royse

PS For anyone who could give a $% # about this thread, sorry for the
inconvenience.

MR JOSH J TENNEY wrote:

> Chad,
> Maybe YOU should get a new job as a sales person and see how we
> actually get treated. I am not a sales person with the bend-the-
> customer-over attitude, but most customers (like yourself) have the
> bend-the-salesmen-over attitude.
> Oh about the clothes and McDonalds compared to buying a truck: Sure
> spending $26,000 on a truck is a bit more than $26 for Jeans or
> whatever, but spending any sort of money is business, like you said,
> "business is business." That is why I made the comparison. I have
> had many deals when the customer made and offer and I took it....I
> don't have the take-it-at-this-price attitude....if you knew me
> personally, which will never happen, you would know that! Trust me,
> Ford doesn't quite make $10K per Expedition, but it is an
> unreasonable amount!
> I am not trying to make you feel bad, and I don't want you to feel
> bad for me...your original post made me feel like crap, so I thought
> maybe you should see things in my point of view. Holdback on a new
> truck, say 3% of $26,000 is $780, like you said. That may seem like
> a lot, but after the salesmen's commission, it isn't alot. Sure it
> is better than nothing, but it isn't great. There are certain
> customers, which buy multiple units per year, that can get away with
> buying at holdback. I and my manager would have a hard time letting
> a new truck go to any old Joe Blow off the street for invoice,
> especially a F-150 supercab 4x4, the most wanted truck. I would
> consider you lucky to get all your stuff at invoice....hopefully the
> salesman did not tamper with a copy of the invoice before bringing it
> to your attention.
> I'm not saying that everyone should buy stuff at MSRP, in fact, I
> even think that is a rip off, but in my point of view, invoice price
> is a secret for dealers only.
>
> Anyway, I don't mean to start arguments about invoice pricing and
> commission and who is right and who is wrong, but I don't appreciate
> you telling me I should get a new job or worry about my family. In
> matter of fact, the family to McDonald's was just an example to show
> that sales people don't make a hell of a lot of money selling new
> cars. I hope you understand my point of view.
> Josh
> KNBD87D prodigy.com
> +-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1980 and Newer --------------+
> | Send posts to fordtrucks80up listservice.net, |
> | List removal instructions on the website. |
> +----------------- Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com -----------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:41:26, -0500
From: KNBD87D prodigy.com (MR JOSH J TENNEY)
Subject: Re: 1999 f250 invoice questions

Chad,

I am glad we can get our little arguement settled, but I assure you
the only way be sure the salesmen is treating you fair is to shop
around. I have personal experience with this. People shop around a
lot, but don't always buy from the cheapest quote. That is the one
thing that really gets at my nerves. I can be cheaper than the
competition, but lose the deal just because....(any b.s. reason).

You aren't the toughest cookie I've faced....believe me, there are
much worse. One thing that many customers do not understand is when
Ford's "Price Level" changes. This is merely an updated pricing, but
many customers get mad when they get one price one time, may wait a
month to order, and then have to pay more than the first quote. This
is where everyone must be careful and understanding. Ford changes
its price level 3-4 times each model year.

Josh

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 16:13:10 -0600
From: Steven McCullough
Subject: ATG electronic shift improver?

Has anyone had any experience with the AutoTrans Group (ATG) "Interceptor"
shift improver module for the E4OD. I saw a web page in which a guy tested
one that ATG representative "gave" to him on a E4OD tranny that he was
rebuilding. He loved it - he said that you could adjust both line pressure
and torque convertor lockup delay. The guy's web page said that I should be
able to find a tranny shop that can order it, but unfortunately I can't
find any info on it, or find a dealer in Houston that has heard of it.

Anyway, here is the web page if anyone's interested...

http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.thegrid.net/thedrivetrainpage/atg.htm


Steve
Steven P. McCullough
Graduate Research Assistant
Section of Diagnostic Imaging Physics
U.T. M.D. Anderson Cancer Center
Office - (713) 792-0789
Fax - (713) 794-5272

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:48:27 EST
From: Midwest96
Subject: Re: 1999 f250 invoice questions

In a message dated 98-01-02 16:18:57 EST, you write:


have no doubt I am a prepared consumer and paid no more than invoice for my
trucks. I go to the dealerships with all the order numbers and invoice
pricing in hand. I am very picky about what I want, so I insist on
ordering it. I obtain a copy of the "VEHICLE ORDER CONFIRMATION" sheet,
compare it's prices with mine, and obtain a copy of the invoice upon
delivery. >>

I am just a little curious here, maybe I missed something, but how are you
getting ahold of the invoice?

Craig {Midwest96 aol.com}

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:16:30 -0600
From: "Gary Snook"
Subject: [none]

I to have never made a deal on ANY vehicle without seeing the invoice. If
they won't show me, I find a dealer who will. I am 2 for 4, in the ordering
department. Since 87, I bought 2 of the floor, and ordered 2. In the case
of ordering, I got to pick all the options, and paid a flat 100$ above
invoice. I could have done better, but this dealer also arranged for some
low interest financing. The 2 off the lot, I bought for 150$ over invoice,
on the rRanger, and 200$ over invoice for the Aerostar. Probabally could
have done a little better here also, but was wore out from deal-making.
BTW, these were no-trade deals, the ONLY way to buy a vehicle IMHO. If you
are trading, it is harder to see the invoicethey either won't show it, or
offer you way under book for your trade. I always figured they made their
money off of used cars and service.

my .02
Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 18:40:24 -0500
From: Gardner
Subject: Re: 1999 f250 invoice questions

Midwest96 wrote:
>
> In a message dated 98-01-02 16:18:57 EST, you write:
>
>
> have no doubt I am a prepared consumer and paid no more than invoice for my
> trucks. I go to the dealerships with all the order numbers and invoice
> pricing in hand. I am very picky about what I want, so I insist on
> ordering it. I obtain a copy of the "VEHICLE ORDER CONFIRMATION" sheet,
> compare it's prices with mine, and obtain a copy of the invoice upon
> delivery. >>
>
> I am just a little curious here, maybe I missed something, but how are you
> getting ahold of the invoice?
>
> Craig {Midwest96 aol.com}
>
> +-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1980 and Newer --------------+
> | Send posts to fordtrucks80up listservice.net, |
> | List removal instructions on the website. |
> +----------------- Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com -----------------+
Check out Microsoft carpoint...I am looking at a new Dakota, I know a
D**dge but I want a truck with a v-8 with out the size of the full size
trucks...Figured up options I wanted got my price and found a dealer how
would sell my a car for 200 dollars above invoice...he quoted me the
exact price that carpoint had given me...Good luck!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 19:01:17 -0500
From: Ken Payne
Subject: Salesmen shenanigans....

I think car salesmen would have more respect if they didn't:

a. sell bogus rust proofing
b. sell fabric protection for mucho $$$$ (its only a
$3.00 can of Scotch Guard
c. Pull the interest rate switcharoo. A slug did this to my
wife knowing she was a desperate first time buyer. Now
that she doesn't have to worry about being cash-strapped
that dealership will never get another visit from us.
The loan "fell through (after she'd already been approved)"
and went from 11% to 16.5%. No biggie, I payed off early
with the payments applied to principle to get around that.
d. Charge you twice for destination.
e. Charge you twice for warrantees.
f. Charge for worthless warrantees which overlap the factory
warrantees.
g. Play the "I'm looking out for you, my boss is such a jerk!
I'll get you the best deal" game.
h. Play the "I'm new here" game.
i. Turn on the A/C or heat full blast as soon as you get into
the vehicle. This is the first thing ANY salesmen does
so you won't hear any creaks/rattles the vehicle may have.
j. Sell over priced comprehensive insurance.
k. Sell worthless life insurance.
m. Listen in on husband/wife conversations with hidden mikes.
n. Change the numbers after you made the deal.
o. Start off at $2000 over MSRP and "cut you a deal of $1000
off."
p. Won't stop talking during the test drive so he'll keep you
distracted.
q. Jerk you over on the trade-in.
r. Take advantage of black people. This stuff has been exposed
on hidden camera numerous times. Black people generally get
higher interest rates, lower trade in, etc. If you're black,
arm yourself with this information and take your business
elsewhere! Dollars speak louder than anything else in the
business world.
s. Use bogus (and now illegal) programs which make it appear cheaper
to make payments rather than paying cash.
t. Sell a vehicle with a known problem.

I could go on and on... I've just barely scratched the surface.
I have no sympathy for salespeople, sorry but they did it to
themselves. Anyone who says "but I'm an honest salesmen"
should consider this: what are you doing in such a shady
business?

I'm not saying anyone here is a shady sort of person, but when
you hang around pigs you're going to get mud on you.

Just my $02...

:)

Ken

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:39:46 EST
From: Midwest96
Subject: Re: 1999 f250 invoice questions

In a message dated 98-01-02 18:31:37 EST, you write:

>

Thanks, but address? I don't navigate Microsoft sites, or is this a program?
TIA

Craig

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 20:15:51 -0700
From: "M.Monninger"
Subject: Re: Salesmen shenanigans....

Ken Payne wrote:
>
> I think car salesmen would have more respect if they didn't:
>
> ...
> n. Change the numbers after you made the deal.
> ...

This reminds me of when I bought my Ranger, altho it wasn't so much the
salesman as the "finance" guy. I had made my deal with the sales guy and
given him a check. I didn't have time at the time to wait for them to
get it ready so I came back that evening to close the deal and pick up
the truck. I got into the office with the guy with the adding machine
and he was working out the paperwork when he said "Uh-oh...we're a
little short here. We need another $153.29. We miscalulated the license
fee." I allowed as how that didn't sound like my problem and since we
already had a signed deal it was their tough luck. $150 on a $12K deal
sounded like small potatoes to me, and besides, I didn't have another
check with me. He said he didn't think he could accept that and called
in the "Finance Manager". In comes in some jerk in a three-piece suit
who started giving me a hard time. I mean, this guy was downright
insulting. I told him I thought he should remember who the customer was,
and a repeat customer at that. He got even more surly, which royally
irritated me, so I told him to shove it, grabbed the title to my old van
that I was trading in, and stalked out. The salesman was really upset
(they had the truck all prepped and ready to go and I think he already
had his commission spent). I almost ran over him on the way out. The
next morning I stopped payment on my check and was trying to decide
where to look next when their sales manager called, asking what had
happened and wondering what he could do to make it up to me. I told him
I probably wouldn't take the truck now even if gave it to me free. I was
really P-O'ed. He said they would try to come up with something and get
back to me. I told him not to bother and hung up. A couple hours later,
the owner of the dealership called (this is the biggest Ford dealer in
Arizona) and told me he was sorry and that he had "taken care" of the
guy in the suit and profusely apologised. Then he offered to forget the
$150 AND knock off another $500. I told him I'd have to think about it.
He said OK and gave me his direct phone number, told me his secretary's
name, and to call him when I made up my mind. I thought about it all day
and then talked to my wife. As she pointed out, I'd probably never get
that good a deal anywhere so I decided to take it (I guess eveyone has
his price :-). I called the owner but he wasn't there so I left a
message with his sect'y...when she heard my name she said he'd been
waiting to hear from me and to just tell her when I wanted to come in
and they'd be sure to have it ready and to ask for the sales manager
directly, etc. etc. When I came in the next day, it seemed like everyone
was waiting for me...the greeter at the door ushered me to the sales
managers office and he painstakingly went thru the numbers with me and
made sure I agreed. He said the owner wasn't in but the next time I came
in to be sure to stop by & meet him (right!). They had the truck all
shined up and ready to go and it all took only about 15 mins. Even the
lot boy apologised for the problems.

Anyway, a long but true story. I felt I got a pretty decent deal but I'm
sure the dealer made his money off it too. I still wonder if it wasn't
all just an act, tho.

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 22:31:41 -0500
From: "R. Carson"
Subject: Re:

>From my experience I think looking at an invoice is almost meaningless.
There are so many kick backs, and dealer incentives that even buying at
invoice may be paying too much. When I bought my 98 Ranger, I took a
computer printout of dealer costs for the truck, the options I wanted, and
any rebates and kick backs in effect. After two hours of haggling with the
manager I walked out with a truck on which I believe I made a deal and the
dealer made a little money. I traded my 97 Ranger in on my 98 but MADE the
dealer negotiate a deal on the 97 before I even talked about the 98.

The Ford dealer was not very happy when I pulled out my computer printout
but in the end I bought a truck from them and we shook hands at the end of
the deal.

Ron C

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 1/2/98, at 5:16 PM, Gary Snook wrote:

>I to have never made a deal on ANY vehicle without seeing the invoice. If
>they won't show me, I find a dealer who will. I am 2 for 4, in the
ordering
>department. Since 87, I bought 2 of the floor, and ordered 2. In the
case
>of ordering, I got to pick all the options, and paid a flat 100$ above
>invoice. I could have done better, but this dealer also arranged for some
>low interest financing. The 2 off the lot, I bought for 150$ over
invoice,
>on the rRanger, and 200$ over invoice for the Aerostar. Probabally could
>have done a little better here also, but was wore out from deal-making.
>BTW, these were no-trade deals, the ONLY way to buy a vehicle IMHO. If
you
>are trading, it is harder to see the invoicethey either won't show it, or
>offer you way under book for your trade. I always figured they made their
>money off of used cars and service.
>
>my .02
>Gary
>
>
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Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 22:28:09 -0700 (MST)
From: zeb utalk.org (Lamar Zabielski)
Subject: Re: Salesmen shenanigans....

>Anyway, a long but true story. I felt I got a pretty decent deal but I'm
>sure the dealer made his money off it too. I still wonder if it wasn't
>all just an act, tho.
>
>Mark

Reminds me of finding a '69 Mustang Mach I, on a used lot in 1970, my dad
reached an agreed price, then they tried to add on sale tax.... out the door
we were ... by the time we were home, there was a msg "Okay; sold at....

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