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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:00:28 -0600 (MDT)
From: owner-fordtrucks80up-digest ListService.net (fordtrucks80up-digest)
To: fordtrucks80up-digest ListService.net
Subject: fordtrucks80up-digest V1 #120
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Sender: owner-fordtrucks80up-digest ListService.net


fordtrucks80up-digest Thursday, September 18 1997 Volume 01 : Number 120



=======================================================================
Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1980 And Newer Trucks Digest
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=======================================================================
In this issue:

Re: fordtrucks80up-digest V1 #119 ["Mike Jones"]
Remove from list [Casey129 aol.com]
Re: fordtrucks80up-digest V1 #118 ["David J. Baldwin" ]
limited slip for 8.8" [Gary Spradley ]
Re: A Hearty Thank You... ["David J. Baldwin" ]
Re: fordtrucks80up-digest V1 #118 [Lars ]
Re: Popping sounds [Jay Chlebowski ]
Re: K&N HP or Mileage? and displacement ["David J. Baldwin"
Re: Remove from list ["Martin and Nancy Jalovec" ]
Re: A Hearty Thank You... [Lars ]
Re: Popping sounds ["David J. Baldwin" ]
Small block engine history. ["David J. Baldwin" ]
Re: fordtrucks80up-digest V1 #119 [Thom Cheney ]
High Octane Gas [tgstoner umich.edu]
RE: Popping sounds [Steven McCullough ]
Re: High Octane Gas ["Dave Resch"]
351w for sale [yhtlines surfari.net]
RE: Strange noise [BILL_CHANDLER HP-Roseville-om2.om.hp.com]
Re: K&N HP or Mileage? ["C. E. White" ]

=======================================================================

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:12:12 -0400
From: "Mike Jones"
Subject: Re: fordtrucks80up-digest V1 #119

>Next discussion: high octane gas. I always use 92 -94 octane just
> because it seems like, hey, if its more expensive it has to be better,
> right? Well, I've heard comments to the contrary such as "it runs your
> engine too hot; you don't really need the high octane to prolong engine
> life and may in fact reduce engine life". Any truth to this?

Use the lowest octane you can get away with with out experiencing pinging.
(One caveat, if your engine has a knock sensor, you may want to go up a
grade or two. You may indeed experience better performance as ignition
timing may advance compared to operation on lower octane fuel.)

Lower octane fuel actually contains more energy per unit of fuel than does
higher octane fuel, and all else being equal, will actually result in
better economy and power. (The difference is probably too small to
reliably measure in the real world, in my opinion.) It has been
demonstrated that operating with high octane fuel can actually increase
intake valve and piston deposits, since it combusts slower.

Higher octane fuel 'running hotter' is an old wive's tale.

Hope this helps...

Mike J.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:12:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Casey129 aol.com
Subject: Remove from list

How do I get removed from this listservice?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:31:02 -0500
From: "David J. Baldwin"
Subject: Re: fordtrucks80up-digest V1 #118

Bill Funk wrote:
> ... a "race" cam will move the torque up on the RPM
> line, increasing HP at higher RPMs. A torque cam (sometimes called an
> "RV" cam) moves the torque down lower on the RPM line, for better
> accelleration off the line. (You can't have both.)

Hey, Bill, I was looking at Competition Cams' web site a while back
looking for an "RV" cam--and didn't find any.

I've since seen several references to RV or Torque cams here, but nobody
specifies who makes them. Do you know of any good ones to check out?
My '95 5.0 is a little weak on the low end and I would like to know if
there is a cam out there that will help. I don't tow anything, but the
size of the F-150 dictates that good low-end torque is required to get
it moving quickly. BTW, most of my milage is highway, and I don't want
to go higher than the 3.55 rear end ratio that I already have. I've
been somewhat dissatisified with off-the-line performance all along.
I'm just glad I didn't opt for the 3.39!

I've been thinking that a set of underdrive pulleys would be an easy,
low-cost torque improvement. I've been concerned about turning the
water pump slower when I live in an area where it is regularly 100
degrees F (38C, for our northern neighbors) for about 4 months of the
year. Anybody out there running underdrives on a 5.0L in an F-150 in
someplace like Arizona without overheating problems (in traffic)?

- --
Best Regards,

Dave Baldwin
Dallas, TX

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:51:52 -0500
From: Gary Spradley
Subject: limited slip for 8.8"

Hello,
I was curious if anyone has tried the Torsen differential that's
advertised in the Ford motorsport catalog. If so, how do you like it?
I am considering installing one in my 84 F150.

Thanks
Gary Spradley

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:54:07 -0500
From: "David J. Baldwin"
Subject: Re: A Hearty Thank You...

Brian Pynn wrote:
>
> Next discussion: high octane gas. I always use 92 -94 octane just
> because it seems like, hey, if its more expensive it has to be better,
> right? Well, I've heard comments to the contrary such as "it runs your
> engine too hot; you don't really need the high octane to prolong engine
> life and may in fact reduce engine life". Any truth to this?
>

Prolong engine life? If you're getting detonation ("ping" or "knock"),
going to higher octane will reduce stress on the engine. It might even
run better. I had a Jaguar that would ping on 92 octane gas so bad that
it would actually decelerate! 104+ octane booster was a must.

It won't make your engine run hot.

Newer engine control systems on most cars/trucks run the spark advance
lower to allow use of lower-grade fuel. Performance cars (especially
with blowers or turbochargers) will often say in the owner's manual to
use high-octane. Many systems employ knock detectors to sense
detonation, and if they sense it, will retard spark timing appropriately
to minimize knock. This way if you get some bad gas out in the boonies
(or can't find 92 octane), the control system will protect your engine.
The system is adaptive, so after you get some new fuel, it will
gradually increase the advance again to restore performance.

The aftermarket "chip" manufacturers reprogram the controller to have a
more aggressive advance curve, and thereby get 10-15HP improvement
across the board. The penalty is that you MUST use high-octane fuel.
You should get better milage from this as well. Whether the trade-off
breaks even or not, I don't know.

I had a guy tell me that his O2 sensors got fouled by using high-octane
fuel. This is unlikely. What WILL foul O2 sensors is using silicone
sealant on gaskets in your engine: silicone is VERY soluable in
gasoline, and somewhat in oil. It dissolves into your engine oil,
vaporizes when hot, and gets pulled through your PCV valve into your
engine's combustion process. The remains passing through your exhaust
system foul the O2. Don't use this stuff on engines. It's great for
weatherproofing or as an adhesive, but not inside of engines.
- --
Best Regards,

Dave Baldwin
Dallas, TX
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:00:25 -0500
From: Lars
Subject: Re: fordtrucks80up-digest V1 #118

Put on some pulleys and a 180 degree high flow thermostat, and you
should have
no problems. I live in Dallas, too, and my temp guage on my Lightning
never goes above 1/2 way, even while sitting in traffic w/ the air on.
Good luck.

==========

> I've been thinking that a set of underdrive pulleys would be an easy,
> low-cost torque improvement. I've been concerned about turning the
> water pump slower when I live in an area where it is regularly 100
> degrees F (38C, for our northern neighbors) for about 4 months of the
> year. Anybody out there running underdrives on a 5.0L in an F-150 in
> someplace like Arizona without overheating problems (in traffic)?
>
> --
> Best Regards,
>
> Dave Baldwin
> Dallas, TX

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 13:11:02 -0500
From: Jay Chlebowski
Subject: Re: Popping sounds

On 9/18/97 8:58 AM , Charles A. Biggs wrote:

>Eric, I had those sounds in my 90 truck and it turned out to be the
>rubber gromets in the front suspension. I shot them with some brake
>fluid and the popping went away.
>
>Ciao,
>
>--
>Chuck Biggs
>Aerospace Consultant
>mailto:biggs flash.net

Why di you use brake fluid? I've got a similar problem with the leaf
springs (front & rear) on my F350, and while regular spray lubricants
work fine, they don't last long. Anybody know of anything that will
stick for awhile, or does brake fluid do that?

BTW, why didn't Ford use shackles with Zerk fittings -- I'd love to have
greasable bushings!

Best Regards,
Jay

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:10:19 -0500
From: "David J. Baldwin"
Subject: Re: K&N HP or Mileage? and displacement

S. Spaulding wrote:
>
> But, if you use the factory tolerance limits for bore & stroke (at the
> high end), and go through the calculation, it DOES come out to 5.0L when
> you round it off. On the other hand, who cares?

Well, if you're talking nominal, it's 4.949L, and if rounding to tenths,
strictly speaking, you'd have to say it's 4.9L. But you're right, of
course: nobody really cares anyway, and normal process tolerance will
dictate that you will get a few that would round the other way => 5.0L.

- --
Best Regards,

Dave Baldwin
Dallas, TX
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:22:39 -0700
From: "Martin and Nancy Jalovec"
Subject: Re: Remove from list

Me too!!!

Please get me off...

- ----------
> From: Casey129 aol.com
> To: fordtrucks80up ListService.net
> Subject: Remove from list
> Date: Thursday, September 18, 1997 10:12 AM
>
> How do I get removed from this listservice?
> +-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1980 and Newer --------------+
> | Send posts to fordtrucks80up listservice.net, |
> | Send Unsubscribe requests to fordtrucks80up-request listservice.net |
> +-- Visit Our Web Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/ --+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:16:22 -0500
From: Lars
Subject: Re: A Hearty Thank You...

The chip will generally give you 5% to 10% better fuel economy. 92
octane
gas is generall 15% to 20% more than 87 octane. So you won't break even.
But, the torque and HP increases are well worth it. The timing advance
can also easily be done manually, by simply adjusting the distributor.
Hope this helps.

========

> The aftermarket "chip" manufacturers reprogram the controller to have a
> more aggressive advance curve, and thereby get 10-15HP improvement
> across the board. The penalty is that you MUST use high-octane fuel.
> You should get better milage from this as well. Whether the trade-off
> breaks even or not, I don't know.

> --
> Best Regards,
>
> Dave Baldwin
> Dallas, TX

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:18:16 -0500
From: "David J. Baldwin"
Subject: Re: Popping sounds

Jay Chlebowski wrote:
>
> On 9/18/97 8:58 AM , Charles A. Biggs wrote:
>
> >Eric, I had those sounds in my 90 truck and it turned out to be the
> >rubber gromets in the front suspension. I shot them with some brake
> >fluid and the popping went away.
> >
> >Ciao,
> >
> >--
> >Chuck Biggs
> >Aerospace Consultant
> >mailto:biggs flash.net
>
> Why di you use brake fluid? I've got a similar problem with the leaf
> springs (front & rear) on my F350, and while regular spray lubricants
> work fine, they don't last long. Anybody know of anything that will
> stick for awhile, or does brake fluid do that?
>
> BTW, why didn't Ford use shackles with Zerk fittings -- I'd love to have
> greasable bushings!

Can you get those urethane bushings that some people use to improve
handling? Maybe someone out there has used these before. I don't know
if the urethanes squeak any less. I have squeaky bushings, too, but
noises like that don't bother me and I just have been living with it.

- --
Best Regards,

Dave Baldwin
Dallas, TX
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:21:20 -0500
From: "David J. Baldwin"
Subject: Small block engine history.

All,

There are probably many of you out there who have some answers for me on
this. There is something that has been perplexing me for some time.

Usually, when a manufacturer makes a high performance variant of an
engine (traditional american V8), usually you find things like
compression ratio, camshaft, valve springs, maybe 4 bolt mains, beefier
con rods, forged crank rather than cast, and different intake, exhaust
and ignition to enable higher rotational speed.

So I'm looking for cams for my 5.0L. I notice that there are cams for
221, 255, 260, 289, and 302 (5.0L).

Then I look and see cams for 5.0L HO...and also 351W (5.8L).

Then there's a note that says you can use cams for 221-302 in HO/351W if
you change the firing order. Similarly you can use the 302HO/351W in
the 221-302 if you change the firing order.

A recent SVO newsletter said that the major components of the 5.0HO and
5.8L are essentially identical with the exception of the crank having a
1/2 inch longer throw for the 5.8L.

So here are the questions:

(1) All of these engines (221-302,302HO/351W) appear to be
dimensionally identical insofar as camshaft selection goes. Is this
true for blocks, heads, intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds,
cranks. Same bore centers? Same main bearing sizes?

(2) Can I turn my 5.0 in my '95 F-150 into a 5.8L by changing the
crank and connecting rods?

(3) Why the firing order difference between the 5.0 and the 5.0 HO?
If the blocks and cranks are identical, this doesn't make sense to
me.

(4) I remember the old 351 Windsor and 351 Cleveland
engines. Hot-rodders in the 60's and '70s preferred the
Cleveland. What was the difference in these (other than one came
from the Cleveland plant and the other in the Windsor plant)?
The Windsor appears to be a big small block which continues as the
5.8L. What was the Cleveland?

Thanks in advance for your help.

- --
Best Regards,

Dave Baldwin
Dallas, TX
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:26:00 -0500
From: Thom Cheney
Subject: Re: fordtrucks80up-digest V1 #119

Mike Jones wrote:
>

> Higher octane fuel 'running hotter' is an old wive's tale.
>

Left over from the glorious old lead days. Didn't the high octane
leaded fuels have a higher lead content that made them burn hotter?

I was just a pimply faced kid when unleaded became the mandated norm.

TC

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:36:43 -0400
From: tgstoner umich.edu
Subject: High Octane Gas

On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 Brian Pynn wrote:
> Next discussion: high octane gas. I always use 92 -94 octane just
> because it seems like, hey, if its more expensive it has to be better,
> right? Well, I've heard comments to the contrary . . .

******************
In my 1996 Ranger XLT Supercab with 3.0 liter V-6 and a 5-speed, I
generally use regular grade gasoline, from a "name brand" source such as
Mobil, Marathon, or Unocal. The truck usually runs quite well and without
complaint on this diet. The exception is when I'm towing my Boston Whaler
Rage jetboat (about 1,800 pounds total), when in the past and with regular
gas I've noticed some engine "pinging" on the longer uphill runs. Now when
I'm towing the boat, I fill the tank with premium grade gas and have had no
further problems.

Also, although I've not yet had this problem with my Ranger, I have
experienced rough running with previous vehicles which had fuel injected
engines, which I thought might be dirty injectors. On those occasions I
switched to detergent premium gasoline, such as from Mobil, for a half
dozen tanks full or so, and this has always seemed to eliminate the problem
for several months.

Tom Stoner
Ann Arbor, MI
1996 Ranger XLT Supercab
1996 Taurus LX

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:09:05 -0500
From: Steven McCullough
Subject: RE: Popping sounds

Be careful!! A lot of petroeum lubricants will destroy
rubber/poly etc..
Using a normal lubricant may be doing more harm than good

Brake fluid is used a lot to lube bushings since it won't attack
most rubbers.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong

Steven McCullough




>On 9/18/97 8:58 AM , Charles A. Biggs wrote:
>
>>Eric, I had those sounds in my 90 truck and it turned out to be the
>>rubber gromets in the front suspension. I shot them with some brake
>>fluid and the popping went away.
>>
>>Ciao,
>>
>>--
>>Chuck Biggs
>>Aerospace Consultant
>>mailto:biggs flash.net
>
>Why di you use brake fluid? I've got a similar problem with the leaf
>springs (front & rear) on my F350, and while regular spray lubricants
>work fine, they don't last long. Anybody know of anything that will
>stick for awhile, or does brake fluid do that?
>
>BTW, why didn't Ford use shackles with Zerk fittings -- I'd love to have
>greasable bushings!
>
>Best Regards,
>Jay
>
Steven P. McCullough
Graduate Research Assistant
Section of Diagnostic Imaging Physics
U.T. M.D. Anderson Cancer Center
Office - (713) 792-0789
Fax - (713) 794-5272

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:28:14 -0600
From: "Dave Resch"
Subject: Re: High Octane Gas

>From: James Federline
>Subject: High Octane Gas (was: Re: A Hearty Thank You...)
>On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Brian Pynn wrote:
>>
>> Next discussion: high octane gas. I always use 92 -94 octane just
>> because it seems like, hey, if its more expensive it has to be better,
>> right? Well, I've heard comments to the contrary such as "it runs your
>> engine too hot; you don't really need the high octane to prolong engine
>> life and may in fact reduce engine life". Any truth to this?

High octane gasoline is only better if your engine requires it to prevent
knock/ping. Using a higher octane gasoline than your engine requires will
have no affect on your engine's operating temperature or longevity.
Otherwise, as some sage said, the only way it improves your performance is
by lightening your wallet.

>Depends on how you feel about things... :)
>1) less emissions:
Octane alone has no affect on emissions. Octane is a characteristic of
gasoline that is used to describe its resistance to knocking or pinging.
There are other gasoline formulation issues that will affect emissions, and
some of those things are coincidentally related to octane. Gasoline is a
very complicated chemical soup, though, and there is no direct correlation
between octane and emissions.
>2) less buildup on your injectors:
There are a number of additives in gasoline straight from the pump that are
designed to counteract or prevent "buildup" in fuel systems and on intake
valves. These additives are not related to octane. If you want a good
additive package, buy major name brand fuels, which as a rule, are more
expensive in all octane grades.
>3) "Runs your engine too hot":
Octane has nothing to do with the engine's operating temperature. Spark
plug heat range, if too high, will promote pre-ignition, which is related
to knocking or pinging, although not the same thing. Pre-ignition is
similarly bad for an engine, though. Otherwise, the cooling system
efficiency and thermostat affect engine operating temperatures.

>4) higher gas milage:
There is no direct connection between octane and fuel mileage. In fact,
some of the chemicals now used to increase octane actually have a lower
specific energy (energy per mass) than gasoline itself, so in theory,
higher octane fuel could actually reduce your gas mileage (since the engine
must burn more fuel for a given power output).

>5) better throttle response and a bit more power:
This is probably a subjective feeling, since octane is not directly related
to power output, etc. (see previous response). As long as the gasoline is
of sufficient octane to avoid knocking in your engine, other factors of the
fuel formulation and additives have much larger impact on overall
drivability Fuel formulation varies dramatically from one supplier to
another and even from season to season from a single supplier. Fuel
formulation is also affected by things like refinery pollutant emissions
quotas, environmental regulations (e.g., oxygenated fuels), and crude oil
sources.

>6) Engine mods:

One of the engine operating parameters that affects the tendency to knock
is ignition timing. Some performance chips remap the ignition timing
curves and induce sufficient advance to cause knocking with an octane that
would be adequate for the OEM engine system. In this case, the octane
requirements of your engine are changed and you should use a higher octane
fuel to meet the new octane requirements. Even so, using a higher octane
than actually necessary is superfluous.

>7) Tuning of todays engines from the factory is made to work well on
Your factory owner's manual lists your particular engine's octane
requirements. Using a higher octane than that recommended will only waste
your money. Conversely, using a lower octane than required is very risky
and can severely reduce your engine's life. Knocking (or pinging) caused
by too low octane will cause immediate and severe engine damage.

If you really want to learn more about gasoline and octane and emissions
and internal combustion engines, refer to the following web site:



Dave R. (M-block devotee)
1980 F250 4x4 351M

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:50:35
From: yhtlines surfari.net
Subject: 351w for sale

A fellow at work rrm9 pge.com

has a 351w for sale, contact him if interested, Located 200 miles north and
west of LA!
"The motor was from a 1980 van. I bought it from the wrecking
yard for a F-150 that I had. The van had been hit in the right
side by the sliding door moving it in about a foot. The van had
about 60 to 70k miles on it. I did the rebuild on it in 1989
30 over with TRW forged pistons, molly rings,melling oil pump,
edelbrock rv cam and 4bbl performer intake manifold. The heads
got a valve job just to make everything even. I pu about 30k
miles on it till the referee up here said I had to computerize
it, go figure stock the motor was not computerized. When I put
in I lived in Orange County and it passed smog. I took it out
in 1992 and it has been in storage since. It does not have a
distributor and it needs valve covers." I think he's asking $650.

Dave Lampert

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 15:28:40 -0700
From: BILL_CHANDLER HP-Roseville-om2.om.hp.com
Subject: RE: Strange noise

Item Subject: cc:Mail Text
>Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:17:51 -0500
>From: Steven McCullough
>Subject: Strange noise
>
>Ok, here's a question for all you F150 owners:
>
>I have a 1990 F150 302 with the E4OD (I think - it has the electronic
>switch to disengage OD)

Mine's a '88 with 5speed manual.

>
>About 3-4 years ago (yes years), I took off in it and noticed a
>strange sorta vibration noise coming from either under the hood or
>the transmission (its sound a >little like a noisy 60 Hz transformer)

I get a similar noise, but it come from the Air conditioning
compressor. When the AC is engaged it makes a similar "high pitched"....


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