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From: owner-80-96-list-digest ford-trucks.com (80-96-list-digest)
To: 80-96-list-digest ford-trucks.com
Subject: 80-96-list-digest V4 #16
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80-96-list-digest Tuesday, January 18 2000 Volume 04 : Number 016



=======================================================================
Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1980-1996 Trucks and Vans
Visit our web site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/
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In this issue:

FTE 80-96 - Major Fuel System Issues (HELP!)
Re: FTE 80-96 - 87 Ranger Codes
Re: FTE 80-96 - Major Fuel System Issues (HELP!)
FTE 80-96 - Power Steering
Re: FTE 80-96 - DI propane? & Cooler propane?
Re: FTE 80-96 - Fan clutches: Hayden or Motorcraft?
Re: FTE 80-96 - 1993 F150 w/A40D Trans.
Re: FTE 80-96 - Re: Brake Lines
Re: FTE 80-96 - Re: Brake Lines
RE: FTE 80-96 - Power Steering
FTE 80-96 - waterproofing
Re: FTE 80-96 - Clutch Fan
Re: FTE 80-96 - Major Fuel System Issues (HELP!)
Re: FTE 80-96 - 1993 F150 w/A40D Trans.
FTE 80-96 - An Open Question.....
FTE 80-96 - 1987 F150 Front Brakes
Re: FTE 80-96 - DI propane? & Cooler propane?

=======================================================================

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:38:42 -0500
From: "Michael R. Dunbar" vtc.vsc.edu>
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Major Fuel System Issues (HELP!)

Pardon my language when I say it was damn cold last night. Here in Vermont
it snowed early in the day, and then dropped into the teens with a nasty
windchill somewhere around -40 to -60. I was driving back to school from
home and my heater stopped working, mostly due to the fact that my engine
cut out in the middle of an intersection. While driving on the interstate, I
was running on the rear tank and it stalled about 4 times, somewhere around
2000 on my tach, I was in 4th gear.

I've noticed recently that there was something strange, but am not sure
where to start in an attempt to fix things. My truck runs perfect when using
the front tank, unfortunately, it was bone dry last night, but when using
the rear tank, there is an audible "whirring" sound coming from the vicinity
of the reservoir/pressure pump, etc area under the truck. 9 times out of 10
when driving on this tank, it performs sluggishly as if I'm trying to start
in 5th gear from a dead stop, usually I can get going if I clutch in and
hammer the gas up to 3000-4000 rpm and let the clutch out (typically leaving
more rubber on the road than on my wheels) Usually I can run fine on the
interstate with this tank, until last night.... When I first started to
notice this issue, my first thought was that I had water in my tank, dry gas
seemed to work. I need to get this fixed ASAP, help on the manner would be
appreciated, I don't want to be stuck in the middle of nowhere again.
Thankfully I had my cell phone to call home and have help drive up with gas,
and a friendly passerby driving a 98 F-150 4x4 (just thought I should
mention that) towed me off the road to a pulloff spot, ironically, across
the street from a Mobil station.... CLOSED of course.

This link points to my webpage which has pictures of the underside of my
truck I took about a month ago to possibly help point me what to do.

http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://members.xoom.com/mdunbar420/fuel.htm

Again, thanks.

Mike Dunbar
89 F-150 XLT Lariat
White River Jct., Vermont

"Just remember, the wheel's spinning but the hamster's dead"

Pet Peeve of a Goldfish:
"Just because I have a three-second memory, they don't think I'll mind
eating the same fish flakes ... Oh boy! Fish flakes!"

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Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:01:37 EST
From: Kbeverwein aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - 87 Ranger Codes

tks
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:29:05 EST
From: AWood70928 aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - Major Fuel System Issues (HELP!)

In a message dated 1/17/00 11:46:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
mdunbar vtc.vsc.edu writes:

<< Pardon my language when I say it was damn cold last night. Here in Vermont
it snowed early in the day, and then dropped into the teens with a nasty
windchill somewhere around -40 to -60. >>

That's why I moved to Southern New Hampshire from Barre, Mike. Couldn't take
those Vermont winters. Only got down to about -30 here last night with the
wind.

The second picture on your sight is the High Pressure Fuel Pump. I only know
that because I had to replace the one on my 87 and it looks the same. The
third pic looks like a fuel filter to me - and is in about the same location
as mine. That's as much as I know about all this.

Stay out of the hot sun.

Al
Manchester - the sunny south
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:36:34 -0800
From: Eric Sneed reil.com>
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Power Steering

Hello,
My 89 f150 $ is at it again, now it is the power steerings turn.
I have two questions:

1.Where are the common places to look for a bad leak in this system?

2., What type of shop does power steering work?
two alignment shops and 4WPW will not work on power steering systems.


Thanks in advance
ES

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:53:10 -0700
From: Fred Moreno dualcurve.com>
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - DI propane? & Cooler propane?

Les wrote in reply to Chris:

Hi Chris,
It's already been done. If you remove the fuel injectors,
and replace with propane,
and you use liquid propane, the injector will freeze, so a
gas is still the way to
go.

Yes but no, there is a gentleman by the name of Dave Bennett (sp?) in
Michigan with a system that uses liquid propane. He has a pump mounted
inside the tank - I think he uses Sleeger (sp?again) tanks. His sytem works
quit well and has been tested in Phoenix and in Michigan. Why his system has
not made it big is beyond me, propably politcal and financial reasons....If
you want more information, one of my best friends works with him, I will
contact him for more information.

The Eurpeans have a few models using true DI but it is
EXPENSIVE, and now you are back to the reliability of injectors.

Yes the europeans are experiencing one small difficulty, that is
reliability. You buy the car today, and six months from now you need all new
injectors at best. This is common with not only the Dutch but also the
Italians, sorry of I offend anyone, but this is probably why some have
indirectly approached our company for solutions to their situations.


Diesel fuel trucks using 30% diesel injection & 70% propane
mix, a Dutch creation, I believe, and Phred can probably give us even more
options.

About one year ago, my teaching partner bought a system that introduced a
small amount of propane into the air stream of a diesel engine. They made
claims of increased performance, mileage, cleaner oil etc, and these pretty
much were true. My partner installs the system on his fathers' Dudge Cummins
diesel. Works...for about two weeks (damn there we go again with the
reliability issue!)
So anyways my buddy starts playing the send it back, wait for the part in
the mail, install it, two weeks later it fails again, call technical
hotline, okay we don't have a fluke, this is a real problem. Sorry.
Well my buddy Mark Gainer is my partner because he is good at what he does,
knows his caca in and out of maintenance, troubleshooting, all around
mechanically inclined, is a stickler for perfection and always buys the
first round.
He understands the system - it's a no-brainer for him- sees the problem
with it and implements his own changes with a few components, adds safety
features for the operator to monitor, fine tunes the entire system and
patents the whole enchilada. This was over 8 months ago and probably 15-20
trucks by now.
I have driven his own Dudge Cummins with and without the propane in the
airstream. Conclusion is that my next truck WILL be a diesel. The increase
in HP, rectal dynamometer is awesome, his mileage went from 20 mpg to 29
mpg. This is a 3/4 ton 1992 regular cab 4X4. Those who want more
information can get it straight from Mark, just email me directly and I will
forward the information. Don't believe me, ask him directly. I have seen the
light....

A propane installer, over here is doing M.Benz cars, where
the bosch jetronic
injection system is too old & expensive to repair, some of
these systems are 30-35
years old. The fuel pump drive is disconnected and injectors
are sealed off and
left in to look stock and the propane mixer is installed in
the back of the air
cleaner, where it can't be seen. Don't think these cars
can't go, these 6.9 ltr 2
ton+ vehicles are still capable if burning rubber in 1st &
2nd gear and pulling
over 150mph top speed.

The only real problem I have with your suggestion is the
issue of simplicity. Have
you taken the propane mixer apart? The OHG -450X, if you
count the return spring,
has TWO (2) moving parts. There is nothing to them, they
make the Pommy S.U. or a
Briggs & Stratton mower carby look complex. In this day of
increasingly complex
engine control systems that are fast outsmarting the
dealers, I find it
refreshingly simple to use. Just watch this list to see how
much trouble fuel
tanks & pumps cause, not a worry on a dual tank propane
truck. There isn't even a
bronze sinter fuel filter to clog, or needle & seat to fail.
There is not even a
cold start choke control. What is a FI filter worth?. I am
using the 'Over the Hill
Gang-450X'. This mixer next to an injection system, is in my
opinion still going to
be more reliable and less prone to failure than injectors.
Why do you need propane
injection to up the Comp. Ratio? Do it anyway. 10 to 1 is a
good start, especially
if you are getting the 110 octane propane. Are you having
pre ignition problems ?
Has your dizzy been optimized ( re-curved ) for propane?


Chris McKinnon wrote:

The idea behind DI is that compression ratios can be higher
without any pre-detonation problems, not to mention that the engine computer
can really control the mixture based on driving habits.

I have spoken with the propane guru's and they say to build the engine with
about 9.5:1 compression ratio. You never know what grade fuel you're going
to get especially when travelling. To solve the detonation issue, two
things:
1 - bring in cold air from outside the engine compartment. Propane is a gas
and the warmer the gase to more volume it occupies. Keep it cool and you'll
get more in the combustion chamber.
2 - Water injection is suppose to work great to cool down the inlet air and
combustion temperatures. Look what it does for gasoline applications and
multiply that by 10 because now you are dealing with a gaseous substance not
liquid. God I wish I had more time and money for myself....

Well the shop is closing down, I'll type more tomorrow.

Phred
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:03:05 -0500
From: Blake Malkamaki little-mountain.com>
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - Fan clutches: Hayden or Motorcraft?

>> Thanks all for your help on the fan clutch. I think I will look for a
>> Hayden if that is the best. I too hate buying some of the junk at
>> AutoZone.
>> I have dealt with NAPA for 30 years, but sometimes I fall into the
>> AutoZone
>> lure. Who sells Hayden?
>
>NAPA has them.
>

I stopped at Ford today and, with my discount, Motorcraft clutch fans are
over $90. I can get the same part number from http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://carparts.com for
$47.11. I can also get a Hayden HD for $51.10 from them.

Which do you recommend?


Blake
Little Mountain
Concord, Ohio
Early Oil Well Historian http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://little-mountain.com/oilwell
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://little-mountain.com
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://little-mountain.com/blake
"Society is safest when the criminals don't know who's armed."
"An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject...."


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:56:48 EST
From: Spruce1495aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - 1993 F150 w/A40D Trans.

Excuse me, Bob, I meant E40D. It's in my F150 1993 year.

Thanks, Bill
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Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:58:50 -0500
From: "Todd Schiller" email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - Re: Brake Lines

I used Inline tube ,bought the stainless steel lines for my 85 F-150 cost
around $180 for complete set from master cylinder to the hoses. They fit
great. they can be found at www.inlinetube.com

Todd Schiller
85 F-150 4X4 Flareside

- -----Original Message-----
From: BanksRVAaol.com aol.com>
To: 80-96-listford-trucks.com <80-96-listford-trucks.com>
Date: Sunday, January 16, 2000 10:37 AM
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Re: Brake Lines


>Hi, has anyone had any experience with companies who offer pre bent brake
>lines?
>If anyone has, can you tell me who you used.
>Thanks,
>Joe 82 F100
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>



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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:12:50 EST
From: BanksRVAaol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - Re: Brake Lines

Thanks for the info Todd.
Joe
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 00:04:09 -0400
From: "Brad Watts" nbnet.nb.ca>
Subject: RE: FTE 80-96 - Power Steering

Check the:

sector shaft where it exits the box

adjustment bolt, on top of the box, opposite the sector shaft

the hose on the side of the pump that can swivel.

If it's the sector shaft leaking, I'd recommend having the shaft removed,
ground down, spray welded and returned. I have seen a lot of people just
replace the seals only to find it leak again in 2 months. It sounds like a
scary adventure but if you do the labour work your self, the shaft rebuild
and new seals should be well under $100. I can say that because I did it
for $ 110 on our good ol Canadian dollar.

Cheers!

Brad Watts / AMT
E-mail wattsbnbnet.nb.ca
Web www.amt.nb.ca


- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-80-96-listford-trucks.com
[mailto:owner-80-96-listford-trucks.com] On Behalf Of Eric Sneed
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 1:37 PM
To: '80-96-listford-trucks.com'
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Power Steering


Hello,
My 89 f150 $ is at it again, now it is the power steerings turn.
I have two questions:

1.Where are the common places to look for a bad leak in this system?

2., What type of shop does power steering work?
two alignment shops and 4WPW will not work on power steering systems.


Thanks in advance
ES

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:19:56 -0600
From: "Harris, Scott" dfwairport.com>
Subject: FTE 80-96 - waterproofing

Any of you have any good tips on waterproofing a distributor? Seems lately
even if I sneeze near the thing it seem to get moisture in it and cuts out
until it dries itself. I remember some mention of this a while back but
couldn't recall exactly what.


Scott Harris
'85 F150SC 302 efi
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:11:15 -0600
From: Jim Cannon gtalumni.org>
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - Clutch Fan

FWIW, my '80 F-150 with the 300 I-6 has a flex fan and no clutch. As the
RPM goes up, the blades flex out flat and move less air (use less power). I
like it, but I have heard that these flex blades are known to crack and fly
apart without warning at higher RPM, tearing up your hood and radiator, a
few hoses, etc. If you are working under the hood it can be really ugly
when a blade breaks.

At 22:53 16/01/00 -0600, you wrote:
>> It will burn a little more fuel, any other reaction is negligible.
>>
>> Bob
>
>Warm up will be extended but Bob may be correct in saying its
>negligible. However, you may not like the constant roaring as you
>accelerate. Generally, the more cfm you move w/a fan, the louder it
>is.
>
>Danny
>
>> Kevin Crandall wrote:
>>
>> > There has been a lot of talk about clutch fans lately, and I have a
>> > question. Can you just remove the clutch fan and replace it with an after
>> > market fan that rotates all the time? Will it cause any problems?

Jim Cannon
Houston, TX "A Ramblin' Wreck from Georgia Tech
'29 Ford Model A Phaeton and a helluva' engineer!"
'80 Ford F-150 300 I-6 2WD '63 Buick Riviera 401 V-8
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Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:20:14 -0600
From: Jim Cannon gtalumni.org>
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - Major Fuel System Issues (HELP!)

At 11:38 17/01/00 -0500, you wrote:

>
>I've noticed recently that there was something strange, but am not sure
>where to start in an attempt to fix things. My truck runs perfect when using
>the front tank, unfortunately, it was bone dry last night, but when using
>the rear tank, there is an audible "whirring" sound coming from the vicinity
>of the reservoir/pressure pump, etc area under the truck.

From the symptoms, sounds like your rear in-tank fuel pump is going out. I
do not have a fuel injected truck, so I can not help beyond that.

PS - it was about 78 degrees here in Houston today, and sunny. Pay back
for those hot, humid summer days we endure


Jim Cannon
Houston, TX "A Ramblin' Wreck from Georgia Tech
'29 Ford Model A Phaeton and a helluva' engineer!"
'80 Ford F-150 300 I-6 2WD '63 Buick Riviera 401 V-8
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Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:43:02 -0800
From: Bob Kennedy uswest.net>
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - 1993 F150 w/A40D Trans.

Spruce1495aol.com wrote:

> I have (2) questions:
> 1. Does anyone know of a device to allow a more positive shift in the A4OD
> without rebuilding or removal. I have heard of a unit that simply plugs into
> existing control, but can't find info on it.

Banks makes one, I wouldn't recommend it. The other, by Baumann Engineering,
seems to be holding up pretty well from what I've heard.

Go to http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.baumannengineering.com

>
>
> 2. I have had a metallic vibration sound coming from the transmission when
> shifting from OD to normal Drive. Ford replaced the torque converter at 58K,
> but that didn't seem to have any or little effect. The truck has 91K on it,
> and the trans never has given me any trouble, even towing my 5th wheel.
> Whaddayathink?!

Is it only between 3rd and OD? Does it occur upshift or downshift or both?
I 'haven't heard of this problem before.


>
>
> Bill in KY
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Bob


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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 17:01:04 +1100
From: les williams cyber.net.au>
Subject: FTE 80-96 - An Open Question.....

Hi All,
I apologize for this not being strictly a ford question, but it must
involve a lot of fords, and I think it would be fair to say most people
on this list are from the 'real' world, and would know political/media
B**l S*it when you see it. - You can always reply to me directly.

In a letter to the editor section of the local motorists magazine, (Open
Road, P6) about an ABC Dateline program exploring the abuses of the
seizure of cars of drink drivers, and other offences.
'Police in small towns like Sulfur, Louisiana, seize cars travelling
on Interstate 10 on the thinnest of pretexts. Louisiana judges get 20%
of all property they order seized. Not suprisingly, travellers now avoid
the State, and the tourism is suffering.......'and so the article
continues in not what I would call a very complimentary manner, towards
the constabulary, and system of justice in the state of Louisiana.
Is this true of any state?
Is this possible?

20%??!! of the top!! Wow.... this sounds to me, like the state has the
local Mafia franchise. We're talking about the USA now, not some eastern
block country.
The reason I'm asking is, some politicians & their lackeys have just
returned from an all expenses paid junket tour to the US and have mooted
the idea, if it wins votes, then let's do to OZ.....

I'm gunna buy me one of those judges Franchises.......

We already have a 'Spin the tyres (doing donuts etc) and have the car
impounded for 90 days'...

regards

Les
Lost in the Land of OZ

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Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:01:46 -0800
From: "Leo Mosley" pacificcoast.net>
Subject: FTE 80-96 - 1987 F150 Front Brakes

I am about to remove the front rotors on my 87 F150 for machining. I notice
that the caliper securing mechanism looks like a "U" shaped piece with tabs
on either end to hold it in place. There also seems to be a rubber filler to
keep the piece expanded. I would assume you compress this piece in the area
of the tabs and push it out. Does this sound right, and can the piece be
used again?
Thanks Leo

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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:33:26 +1100
From: les williams cyber.net.au>
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - DI propane? & Cooler propane?

Fred Moreno wrote:

> Yes but no, there is a gentleman by the name of Dave Bennett (sp?) in
> Michigan with a system that uses liquid propane. He has a pump mounted
> inside the tank - I think he uses Sleeger (sp?again) tanks. His sytem works
> quit well and has been tested in Phoenix and in Michigan. Why his system has
> not made it big is beyond me, propably politcal and financial reasons....If
> you want more information, one of my best friends works with him, I will
> contact him for more information.

It STILL uses a pump in the tank? The liquid is at a tank pressure of approx.
180psi, the very reason we don't need pumps, currently. The tanks are expensive
enough already, representing approx half the cost of the install, and need
retesting every 10 years.
Yes, Please, more Info. whilst respecting any proprietary knowledge. Petrol
technology has had more than 100 years of experimentation & development, Propane
is only a relative newcomer and serious developments have only really been in
the last 25-30 years. Maybe Dave is operating in a less than sympathetic
climate, move to OZ or Europe where diesel fuel is between .82cpl in OZ to 1.85
cpl and up in parts of europe. Damn it, there is that conversion problem again.
How many Litres to the US gallon??

>
> The Eurpeans have a few models using true DI but it is
> EXPENSIVE, and now you are back to the reliability of injectors.
>
> Yes the europeans are experiencing one small difficulty, that is
> reliability. You buy the car today, and six months from now you need all new
> injectors at best. This is common with not only the Dutch but also the
> Italians, sorry of I offend anyone, but this is probably why some have
> indirectly approached our company for solutions to their situations.
>

No offence should be taken. The reality of countries trying different propane
delivery systems is a reflection of the reality of fuel prices in their
respective countries, Geez, If I could buy petrol for 1.12 a US gallon, like you
guys can, My F100 would be a stroked 460, at least.

Why is/should propane be harder on injectors than petrol?
Although I now see injection for street cars as a necessary evil to appease the
smog gods.

> I have spoken with the propane guru's and they say to build the engine with
> about 9.5:1 compression ratio. You never know what grade fuel you're going
> to get especially when travelling. To solve the detonation issue, two
> things:
> 1 - bring in cold air from outside the engine compartment. Propane is a gas
> and the warmer the gase to more volume it occupies. Keep it cool and you'll
> get more in the combustion chamber.
> 2 - Water injection is suppose to work great to cool down the inlet air and
> combustion temperatures. Look what it does for gasoline applications and
> multiply that by 10 because now you are dealing with a gaseous substance not
> liquid.

AND install the MSD timing control box, (I have had my MSD catalog 'borrowed' so
I don't have the part #) so you can knock back the timing in the case of a dose
of bad Gas (?? Gotta stop eatin' those beans!). Vitalgas (Caltex/Texaco Oz)
technical support - LPG are suggesting 9.5:1 on our 92 octane 'blend', however I
think this could be a country by country issue.
Out of sheer personal experience, the mantra for a propane powered truck should
be, 'Cold, Cold, Cold'
I did note Chris's comment about driving a cold truck, probably a stuck thermo.
But what do you want comfort or performance? While your shivering in the truck,
the propane is happy. ;-))
If you shop around you should be able to get 160 deg F thermo replacement, I'd
love to know what's in it now.

Oh, Today's temp was 30 deg C and 42 (100 deg F) predicted for tomorrow.......

> God I wish I had more time and money for myself....

Phred, If you were to be part of the Idle Rich, spending you waking hours
chasing under dressed dolly-birds around the deck of the 56' Company owned, tax
write off, Cruiser for entertainment, look at all the Real Fun you would be
missing out on. ;-^))

>
> Well the shop is closing down, I'll type more tomorrow.
>
> Phred
>

I'm a day ahead of you.

regards

Les
Lost in the Land of OZ

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End of 80-96-list-digest V4 #16
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