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Received: with LISTAR (v0.128a; list 80-96-list); Sun, 05 Mar 2000 08:46:02 -0500 (EST)
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 08:46:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Ford Truck Enthusiasts List Server ford-trucks.com>
To: 80-96-list digest users ford-trucks.com>
Reply-to: 80-96-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: 80-96-list Digest V2000 #25
Ford Truck Enthusiasts 80-96 Truck Mailing List
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From: "The Casey's" home.com>
Subject: Problems starting
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 07:16:00 -0000
My wife's car is acting crazy anyone ever heard of something like this. She will go to start it the lights are dim it will click barely you leave the key in the on position and in a minute everything lits up and you can crank the car. I thought she was joking when she mention this. The F-150 is back together and the truck that provide the parts is about to go to the recycling yard for it's final mile I guess my neighbors will be glad to see only four vehicles instead of five. Now comes the fun part the engine swap. Thats for the help gentlemen and ladies have a nice day.
Hey Les..........Whutza 'mug punter' ? I certainly hope that this in not
another racial slur ;^>
From: "Peters, Gary (G.R.)" visteon.com>
Subject: Re: Okay somebody educate me!!!
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 09:16:47 -0500
Ok so higher compression also means more spark power is required and with
propane that would be even more important so maybe that's the real issue?
At some point the spark can be actually extinguished by the cylinder
pressure. If we put this in perspective then, theoretically, just based on
those numbers you need roughly 3.6 times more spark power (heat intensity)
to do the job reliably. Add more compression and it get worse yet. So High
energy ignition and platinum plugs would be a necessity even with lower
compressions I would think?
Michigan, Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
> One more point, gasoline has an Auto Ignition temperature anywhere in
>between 80-300 degrees F, where as propane Auto Ignition is listed as
>anywhere from 920-1020 degrees F. Respectively converted
>numbers in degrees
>C are 27-149 versus 493-549. So if each fuel is brought up to that
>temperature range, it will eventually ignite somewhere in that range.
>This stress the importance of a well maintained ignition
>system when using
>propane. It is much harder to ignite than gasoline.
From: "Peters, Gary (G.R.)" visteon.com>
Subject: Re: Cheap tunups :-)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 09:46:10 -0500
Sorry, I retract my statement, I should have said "altogether too many"
instead of "most" :-) It's actually what the bible calls the "Air of the
world" and we can see it in stores where they sell a 12 pack of paper towels
for a price that is actually $0.02 more per roll than their 8 pack but they
know that most people don't carry a calculator around with them. It's
normal to believe that the larger volume would be cheaper per unit but this
is a very wide spread practice and none of them bat an eye when you accuse
them of cheating, it's simply "modern market practice". They haven't lied
to you, the price is right there on the package........
You can reason that you are doing what the customer asks and not investigate
and still be legally safe from prosecution but an honest shop will certainly
want to give the customer the best bang for his buck, as you say :-) While
it may not be "most" it is still common enough that I will continue to do my
own work as long as I am physically able....when I'm not, I probably won't
need their services anyway since I will probably be strapped to a bed or
resort to "Dail a Ride" to get around :-(
Michigan, Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
> I think you're a little off the mark by portraying ''most''
>garages as unscrupulous.
Next time this happens, don't turn the key off. If the radio also won't
come on then turn it on real loud. Open the hood and start jiggling
battery cables. If you get lucky, the radio will pop on loud and you'll
have found your problem. When it happened to me, the problem was in the
negative battery cable. It was externally good in appearance but had
corroded under the insulation. Jiggling it made the connection. The
radio lets you know when you found the problem. At night, the headlight
will work for that as well.
As a side note, your post is always a pain to read. Most of the posts I
get "wrap so I need only to scroll down. With yours it scrolls
horizontally which is difficult to read. I'm not sure how to fix it in
your email software.
The Casey's wrote:
> My wife's car is acting crazy anyone ever heard of something like this. She will go to start it the lights are dim it will click barely you leave the key in the on position and in a minute everything lits up and you can crank the car. I thought she was joking when she mention this. The F-150 is back together and the truck that provide the parts is
From: "Peters, Gary (G.R.)" visteon.com>
Subject: Transmission gear ratios.......
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 11:12:23 -0500
Petersen's 4 wheel and Off Road has a great article in it this month, April,
2000 issue, about trannys, xfer cases etc, and failed to include the Ford
C-6 in it's line up of great trannys for some reason but did include it in
their list which also includes a side bar with after market ratios available
from A-1 and TCI. I won't list them all here but there are 3 ratio sets for
the C-6, not just two as I thought if their info is accurate (always a
question mark in a magazine) The article starts on page 30 and the list is
on page 34 if anyone is interested.
The article shows the E4OD as having the 10% better low and 5% lower second
and one lower one offered by aftermarket companies at 13% lower low and 5%
Here are the ford ones:
2.46, 1.46, 1.0
2.82, 1.54, 1.0
2.75, 1,57, 1.0
6.32, 3.09, 1.69, 1.0
5.11, 3.03, 1.79, 1.00
6.40, 3.09, 1.69, 1.00
2.40, 1.47, 1.00, 0.67
2.71, 1.53, 1.00, 0.71
6.69, 3.34, 1.79, 1.00
7.00, 4.00, 2.17, 1.00, 0.80
Michigan, Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 12:22:12 -0500
From: Ken Payne ford-trucks.com>
Subject: Re: Modified Slurs
Quite frankly, if your co-workers flip flop on what's the
icing on the cake with every make they buy, they lack a
back-bone. Choose a favorite or two! Basing an opinion
on "I own it therefore its the best" is wishy-washy.
Me? I've had a Dodge truck, and a Chevy car. I hated
them both the entire time I owned them, never liked them
and will never buy another. They were nothing but trouble.
I've had 8 Fords, both new and used. I'll buy more
in the future.
>has its distributor at the rear of the engine. Certainly Chevy builds a
>superior performance engine.
I'm going to have to strongly disagree.
>Any fool can see that. You can build a Chevy cheaper and
>better than any other V8 on the planet. Period.
Again, can't agree. Cheaper, yes. Better, no. Is a small
block Chevy better then a Chrysler Hemi? Can it produce as
much horse-power cheaper? No. Is it better than a 427 side
oiler? Can a 351w put out as much HP as a 350. Yes.
Can a Ford 460 produce as much HP as a 454? Certainly. The
difference in cost is negligible and it'll last longer. Who
won the recent race? Who's changed racing rules to disallow
it every time Ford or Mopar had an engine innovation? Chevy
teams. If you control the rule-book, it certainly skews the
odds in your favor.
>my next project car is going to be a '27 T-bucket kit, and since
>performance is an issue, it's gonna be Chevy powered.
Its always struck me that anyone who does that has no originality.
A 302 or 351 will work just as well, produces just as much HP and
small block Fords are very plentiful and cheap.
Mac Donald's makes cheap burgers, but they aren't the best....
Yes they do mess up your alignment, and I would not recomend you do it.
> If you really want to level the truck, get the leveling springs!.
> When I used the leveling blocks on my truck, (92F1504x4)
> I had to get the truck not only aligned, but also new caster camber
> My philosiphy was that I wanted to keep the stock ride and increase the
> height, to make the truck look normal and level. Unfortunateyly I spent
> money in alignment and new bushings and leveling block costs, and it
> really lift the truck as much as the company said. I used STEMPH
> blocks, specially made for ford truck coil springs.
> End result, just get the leveling springs and put them in, and the truck
> be level, and you wont have to go to the alignment shop and spend more
> Everything I heard about the leveling springs has been good, even the
> that they dont change the ride softness enough to notice.
> Good luck
Interesting. Are you talking about those shock/spring kits that
replace the shock and has a coil spring intergral?
I intentionally declined these due to their well known poor shock
performance. Due to space limitations they are constrained to a
small shock diameter which w/current designs, means weak(IMO)
shock performance. With current technology, you can only get so
much out of seals/valving w/o having to go to bigger cyl/pistons(i.e.,
If that is what your referring to, your right about the ride...its pretty
gentle. If thats what you care for. I found them to considerably
more "bouncy" than w/shims. But, thats me. Some owners may
not notice the difference.
Changing vehicle height from factory(front or back) affects front end
geometry whether you use the "load levelers", stiffer springs,
shims, etc. Whether that height change puts you out of adjustment
ranges in your front end depends on factory adjustment design,
how much adjustment they used setting up at the factory and
previous adjustments w/alignments or even adjustments used up
from a previous wreak.
BTW, 2 competent front end shops say shims(other than coil
spring replacement) is the only method they recommend for raising
vehicle height in the front. They are adjustable too. Start at 2" and if
thats too much, take them out and cut them down.
> DannyF wrote:
> > > Has anyone ever used Daystar lift/level blocks under the front coils of
> > > a
> > > F-150? I want to lift the front up and add springs to the rear but do
> > > they
> > > mess up your alignment?
> > Not familiar w/that particular brand but I've used alum.
> > shims/spacers under the coil springs. They are made specifically
> > for this. I think the max height is only 2-2 1/2". For me that was
> > enough as I was leveling out the truck from that all-to-common
> > "raked" look.
> > Never had a tire wear problem and an alignment much later than
> > the shim installation only showed the alignment slightly off on
> > camber.
> > Danny
> > fitz011 ev1.net
From: "Phil & Debi" stargate.net>
Subject: Re: MIleage Check on Old truck
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 12:54:29 -0500
I have been reading all the talk of mileage and gas prices, I thought my
truck was lousy on gas, but seems to be going pretty good from what i can
see. Gets around 15.6 driving back and forth to work and gets a best of 19
mpg on highway. It is a 91 150 4x4 with 4.9l 5 speed and 3:55 gears and
177,000 miles on it. Gas finally has dropped to around 1.37 in Pittsburgh.
My 66 only gets 5mpg and runs on 94, havent driven it much at all lately.
91 F150 4x4
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 07:02:29 +1100
From: les williams cyber.net.au>
Subject: Re: granny for president!
Yes, they breed 'em tough down there, I reckon it's something in the water they
Especially when this is the only state where police already have a proven
'Shoot to Kill Policy' anyway. :-))
Lost in the Land of OZ
Eric Sneed wrote:
> On the lighter side of things....
> Gun-toting granny shoots 2 rapists' testicles off
> MELBOURNE, Australia -- Gun-toting granny Ava Estelle, 81, was so
> ticked-off when two thugs raped her 18-year-old granddaughter that she
> tracked the
> unsuspecting ex-cons down - - and shot their testicles off!
> "The old lady spent a week hunting those bums down -- and when she found
> them, she took revenge on them in her own special way," said admiring
> Melbourne police investigator Evan Delp.
I am trying to find the part# for NGK V-Power plugs, for a 91' F-150
with a 300/6. The NGK app book doesn't show this plug for any 300s, and I
haven't had a chance to call NGK directly (the search engine isn't
implemented on their website). Does anyone have this engine/plugs? Also,
should I use the factory recomended gap if I do find the plugs? I was
reading that some (specialty?) plugs require slightly wider gap.
From: "Dave Harmier" pdq.net>
Subject: Mark, PARTY ON DUDE!
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 18:42:35 -0600
I have a '92 F-150, Hope to acquire Monday a real nice '90 F-250 Crew Cab
7.3/E4OD. Dad drives a '91 F-150.
That said, we have an '81 Chevy Elky for our play car... partly because it
was too good of a deal to pass up... but mostly because people practically
give chevy parts away.... It's bucks up to play with Fords or worse yet,
Now going out to cruise the Elky!
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 12:03:07 +1100
From: les williams cyber.net.au>
Subject: Re: mug punter
No Worries Mate,
First let me say, Gawd, Strike Me Pink and give me time to stop laughing and
get back into a vertical position. Such are the problems of international
I thought I was doing a good job of staying clear of the 'racial slur'
thread, after all, as Ken said we all have problems, and besides that, it's
an unwinable argument.
Ok, so a 'mug punter' is a good old Oz slang saying usually used in
association with betting on horse races. The term is used a lot especially
around one race we have down here called the Melbourne Cup. A field of 30+
horses, all of them favourites, (a silly time to place a bet anyway) so
people that would normally never gamble, or have a punt, will try their luck
on this one, only a mug would bet on it, so the expression of being a 'mug
punter'. This is not the same as suggesting the person may be in any way
intellectually challenged (stupid). I'm not a punter, mug or otherwise, I
have found so many other ways to blow my money. Maintaining an Effie in OZ
for starters!! However others, from their point of view, may suggest that I
was a mug punter for buying an Effie......
This term is used in the daily press, on TV etc. and in no way is it
considered to be a worry.
My use of the term was in relationship to the customer having a $185 tune
up, but has absolutely no idea what goes on, and if there is a problem, has
no idea what the right questions are to ask.
I suppose the word 'Sucker' or 'Pigeon' could be used but that sounds so
harsh. Do you have a better suggestion?
..... but I'm still havin' Fun in a Ford. ...... but then I'd have a little
bit of fun in a Yugo, as long as I don't have to walk.....
Lost in the Land of OZ
Steve Schmeckpeper wrote:
> Hey Les..........Whutza 'mug punter' ? I certainly hope that this in not
> another racial slur ;^>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 17:20:43 -0800
From: scott ford-trucks.com>
>Also, why do we have to
>put down Chevy or any other make to feel good about our fords.
I agree that racial slurs don't belong on this list,but vehicular
Just a hunch here,but I believe it is all in fun.I really am
intelligent enough to know that chevy (small c)is not a swear word.
I spell it ch*vy in jest.
But if I did not think Ford (capital F)built a superior product,I would
not currently own three of them and I would not
be on a Enthusiat's list.
It is no longer PC to bash a inanimate object ??????
I have been known to call my own trucks unprintable names at times.
Is some type of automotve PC police ging to come to my house and charge
me with verbally abusing my truck now????
If I can't bash ch*vies and other off brands here then where????
As far as feeling good about my Ford,back when I used to own a
riceburner it felt great to have a Ford truck to tow it home on more
than one occasion.That car gave me more trouble in a year than my three
Fords give me in five.
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 20:39:19 -0500
From: "Theodore D. Mills" martnet.com>
Subject: Re: Modified Slurs
>>has its distributor at the rear of the engine.
The Ford 2.8 V6 has it's distributor at the back too.....not my favorite
Maybe the 2.9 also?
>>Any fool can see that. You can build a Chevy cheaper and
>>better than any other V8 on the planet. Period.
>Again, can't agree. Cheaper, yes. Better, no. Is a small
>block Chevy better then a Chrysler Hemi? Can it produce as
>much horse-power cheaper? No. Is it better than a 427 side
>oiler? Can a 351w put out as much HP as a 350. Yes.
>Can a Ford 460 produce as much HP as a 454? Certainly. The
>difference in cost is negligible and it'll last longer. Who
>won the recent race? Who's changed racing rules to disallow
>it every time Ford or Mopar had an engine innovation? Chevy
>teams. If you control the rule-book, it certainly skews the
>odds in your favor.
There seem to be so many aftermarket performance parts for Chevys that any
idiot that can hold a wrench can pick something that will run well when
they bolt it up.
Building A Hi-Po ford actually requires a little knowledge of your engine
and what you want to do with it
>>my next project car is going to be a '27 T-bucket kit, and since
Cool project, I'd like one too someday.
>>performance is an issue, it's gonna be Chevy powered.
BOO! Everybody does that!
>Its always struck me that anyone who does that has no originality.
>A 302 or 351 will work just as well, produces just as much HP and
>small block Fords are very plentiful and cheap.
My wife has always wanted a '57 Bel-Air. While I can appreciate the
"classics", there is no way it's getting into my garage unless it's Ford
Powered. Say maybe a 390 or 460??
I always liked the body styling on the 69 Dodge Charger R/T. Now there's a
460 candidate if I ever saw one!
Mine acted that way for about 3 months before I found that I had a dead cell in my brand new battery. Might check there!
- My wife's car is acting crazy anyone ever heard of something like this. She will go to start it the lights are dim it will click barely you leave the key in the on position and in a minute everything lits up and you can crank the car. I thought she was joking when she mention this.
This is a long message, so go get a cup of coffee, okay? And
I'm not trying to be quarrelsome, I'm just pointing out a
few things based upon experience. Remember through all this
that I am still an F-series (and Ford in general)
enthusiast, just a realistic one.
> back-bone. Choose a favorite or two! Basing an opinion
> on "I own it therefore its the best" is wishy-washy. Me?
I agree 100 percent. I was only making the observation that
there are people who are that way.
> both the entire time I owned them, never liked them and
> will never buy another. They were nothing but trouble.
I have had troublesome vehicles from each of the big three,
Ford included. I have had fewer problems with Ford trucks,
and I vastly prefer their styling and their durability over
other makes' trucks.
> I've had 8 Fords, both new and used. I'll buy more in the
As will I.
> >better than any other V8 on the planet. Period.
> Again, can't agree. Cheaper, yes. Better, no. Is a
> small block Chevy better then a Chrysler Hemi? Can it
Actually, yes it is, in many respects. Have you priced a
Hemi lately? Have you ever driven one? Maintained one?
Repaired one? Most people haven't even SEEN one. They were
temperamental as hell and a royal pain to work on. What was
worse, they weren't all that damned fast on the street. Oh,
at NASCAR they were king, because they could sustain revs
higher than the other competitors, but it was getting that
thing into the upper rpm ranges that was a colossal chore.
On the street, it was almost impossible. The Ford 427's
were about the same way, even those mutant SOHCs.
It is common knowledge that a fresh, well-driven (and
interestingly, less expensive) 440 six-pack could outrun a
Hemi in a drag race, all other things being equal. The 440
was far less difficult to work on, less expensive, and they
held up better, to boot.
A Hemi produced approximately 425-500 horsepower in street
trim. A Chevy 350 can produce similar figures if built
properly. Although the 350 will probably only last about
30,000-40,000 miles producing that kind of power, that
actually puts in on par with the Hemi. After about 25,000
miles Hemis started to come apart, and by 50,000 miles they
were burned-out. You very seldom see a Hemi with more than
50,000 miles that hasn't been rebuilt at least once.
> produce as much horse-power cheaper? No. Is it better
> than a 427 side oiler? Can a 351w put out as much HP as a
> 350. Yes.
Yes, a 351 Windsor CAN put out as much as a 350 Chevy. But
to get a Chevy to produce 350 horsepower is almost nothing.
Match the ports to the intake, throw a decent cam in it, a
4-bbl carb and manifold, and a good set of headers. Bam!
350 horsepower, and probably not even $1000 worth of work
and parts. Of course, I'm assuming you're starting with a
decent compression ratio and a long-block in reasonable
I'm not even going to address the side-oiler in comparison.
While the '7 was a fine performance engine, the last example
of one was produced THIRTY TWO YEARS ago. The Hemi, by
comparison, is still available (parts, anyway) simply
because it is used extensively in drag racing and the blocks
and heads are still manufactured by Keith Black. I think
MoPar rolled out Hemi parts also via their performance parts
To get the same 350 hp out of a Windsor is going to cost
more. Here's why:
The ports of the average Windsor are tiny in comparison to
the Chevy. Go find a set of heads in a boneyard that will
actually allow a 351W to breathe above 4500 rpm. It's not
all that easy, is it? Just about every Chevy small block
ever made has generous intake ports that will support up to
about 5,000 rpm without having to rework them. Ching.
Run down to the AutoZone or Pep Boys or even the local speed
shop and ask for a Performer RPM intake for a 350 Chev. He
probably has it in stock. Now ask for a Performer RPM
intake for a Windsor. I'll bet he has to order it, and I'll
bet it costs more, too. Same with the camshaft. Cha-ching.
Go to the boneyard again and try to find an OEM 4-bbl intake
for a 351W. Take a lunch; you'll need it. You'll find a
4-bbl intake for a 350 Chevy within ten minutes.
To make that Perf-RPM work, you'll need some serious head
mods, possibly even to go find an early set of Windsor iron
By the time you're done getting the 351W to 350 horsepower,
you'll probably have spent 25-40 percent more than you would
have getting a Chevy to the same output. And realistically,
at those power levels, the Chevy and the Ford will probably
hold up about the same. Durability isn't so much a factor
of what brand, but how competent the machinist/mechanic is
and how hard the engine is run. Higher-durability parts
(i.e; stronger rods, steel cranks, four-bolt-main blocks,
etc) are far more accessible for a Chevy than for a Ford.
The bottom line is this: there is more "bang for the buck"
with a Chevrolet small block.
> Can a Ford 460 produce as much HP as a 454? Certainly.
> The difference in cost is negligible and it'll last
This is true. Once you get into big-blocks, the cost of
building a performance engine evens out between Ford and
Chevy. I'm not so certain about the "lasting longer" point,
though. As I stated above, it isn't so much the brand, it's
the expertise of the builder and how hard it's driven. All
other things being equal, they would last pretty much about
> longer. Who won the recent race? Who's changed racing
> rules to disallow it every time Ford or Mopar had an
> engine innovation? Chevy teams. If you control the
> rule-book, it certainly skews the odds in your favor.
This is also true. But remember, more often than not, what
wins a race at NASCAR isn't the car's engine but the skill
of the driver and the skill of the mechanics who "dial-in"
the car. Handling is all at NASCAR; a poorly set up car can
will probably lose even if it has the most powerful engine
at the race.
As a further aside, the last I heard, Fords were running
some sort of definitely non-production hybrid engine, a mill
with Cleveland-style heads on a specialized Windsor-type
block. Definitely not the sort of thing you're going to run
into at the 7-11! Chevies, on the other hand, are running
an engine that is fairly close to their production small
block in terms of how the long block is laid out. That
should tell you something, as well.
> >them. But, my next project car is going to be a '27
> >T-bucket kit, and since performance is an issue, it's
> >gonna be Chevy powered.
> Its always struck me that anyone who does that has no
> originality. A 302 or 351 will work just as well, produces
> just as much HP and small block Fords are very plentiful
> and cheap.
So putting a Ford engine in it will make me original? NOT.
If I truly wanted to be "original" I'd go find me a Caddy
Northstar or a Jag engine. Or I could go "retro" and find
an old Flathead. Would any of those net me more power?
Probably not, at least, not in stock trim, but they would be
"original" in addition to costing more money! As I pointed
out above, it is simply easier and more cost-effective to
build up a bow-tie to achieve a specific output.
Just because a path is more difficult does not necessary
mean it MUST be better. And money is difficult to come by,
so I spend it in a manner that nets me the most returns.
I would never transplant a Chevy engine into a Ford. The
hassle involved with that simply makes it cost-ineffective.
The difference with the T-bucket kit is that the frame is
already set up for a Chevy small block. The reason is
simple...more people are going to build one with a SBC, for
the reasons I've already discussed. My gripes about the
distributor being in the back don't apply here, because the
engine's going to hang out in the breeze (i.e.; no cowl or
hood) and distributor will be accessible in this car.
> Mac Donald's makes cheap burgers, but they aren't the
True, but if you have to watch what you spend, Mickey Dee's
is probably a better choice than Fuddruckers!
To illustrate further what I mean, I'm willing to bet that
you typed your message on an IBM-compatible running Windows
95 or 98, correct? So why aren't you using LINUX or a Mac?
Both are superior products to the Windows-Intel platforms,
and LINUX is even FREE! The reason is very likely that it
is easier to run Windows without sitting down and learning
LINUX's arcane commands, and the PC is less expensive than a
Mac. I'm not faulting you...I run Windows/Intel myself for
those very reasons. But in this case, "better" doesn't....To access the rest of this feature you must be a logged in Registered User
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