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------------------------------------
80-96-list Digest Thu, 24 Feb 2000 Volume: 2000 Issue: 017

In This Issue:
Alfalfa powered 5.0L
Propane and Natural Gas
new seats
Re: my '96 F150 is rusting
351 Carb
Re: Gas price and Propane
Re: 351 Carb
Re: Gas price and Propane
Re: 351 Carb
Re: new seats
Re: Propane and Natural Gas
RE 96' F150 Rusting
Re: Propane, its a gas!
Re: Propane and Natural Gas
Re: Gas price and Propane
Re: Forklifts...
Re: Propane and Natural Gas
Re: 351 Carb
Re: new seats
Re: 351 Carb
Re: new seats

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Fred Moreno dualcurve.com>
Subject: Alfalfa powered 5.0L
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:01:44 -0700

Blake inquired;

I wonder if you could fill up the back of your truck with garbage and burn
the methane produced by it.

Damn, Blake I just cleaned out our horse corral last week-end and fill up
the bed of the F-150 to the top with processed alfalfa! Next time I'll put a
tarp over the whole thing, run a hose from under the tarp straight into the
intake. When she's too rich, I'll just pinch the hose a bit.

Hey Chris,
Double damn, I can't beleive you live that close to TechnoCarb, I'm
jealous.
When you visit them, tell them I'm spreading good (and real) information
about them, maybe they'll give you a free system and one for me too.

BTW, my tank is a 12 X 12 X 60 Manchester, basically two cylinders
manifolded together, I usually cram 50 or 52 gallons in it on a cool day
(below 90 degrees F), I think legally it is only suppose to hold 43 gallons.
Water capacity is 54 gallons.


To Mike Dunbar,
My farmtruck/daily driver/favorite playthinggy Eddie B. F-150 4X4 with the
5.0L, 5-speed, short bed, 3.55:1 has a towing capacity of 3000 lbs. The
automatic tansmission kicks up the tow rating a little more I remember, but
I'll wear pink before I drive an automatic.
This is from the brochure/specs sheet that came from Ford found in the
dealership. I know its not much, but I've had a lot more than that hooked to
the hitch. I think the owners manual (still in my glove box) will also list
this spec sheet.

Phred KD5AQB
Ward? What did the beaver start now?


------------------------------

From: "Mahaffey, Chris M" ch.etn.com>
Subject: Propane and Natural Gas
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:11:23 -0500

For those of you who have converted to propane, does it require a special
filling station or can you take your truck to any place capable of refilling
propane cylinders?

Have any of you had experience with natural gas powered vehicles? What are
the requirements for filling one of these vehicles? At the risk of sounding
stupid, I've got natural gas in my house to heat with, could I run a pipe to
my garage and refill a natural gas vehicle from it? I would guess the tank
would require more pressure than what's in the gas lines in my house so some
sort of pump may be required, and the cost of that may make it impracticle,
but the thought of being able to fill the tank in my own garage without the
hassle of stopping at a gas station (except for long trips) would be great.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:16:33 -0800 (PST)
From: rich may yahoo.com>
Subject: new seats

I was wondering if anyone knows if I could swap in
Lincoln leather seats in a 92-96 Bronco? thanks

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://im.yahoo.com

------------------------------

From: BAH NWC.EDU
Subject: Re: my '96 F150 is rusting
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:37:50 -0600


>From: "Garold Shaffer" worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: my 96 F150 is rusting!!!!!!
>Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 15:49:16 -0600

>Since my truck is only 4 yrs old and it only has 37k on
>it I think I might have a warranty paint issues here.
>Has anyone dealt with Ford (or any other dealer) with
>a paint warranty issue?

Since I work part-time in the Service Department of a Ford dealer, let me
pass along a couple of suggestions that might be of help in getting
assistance from the dealer/factory.

First, you have to recognize that you are out-of-warranty (the 36/36 has
expired), so any help you get will be a good-will gesture from Ford. (The
fact that you are minimally past 36/36, will help.)

Second, the dealer has some discretion in how the matter is handled, so
your chances of getting factory help are far better when you don't tick off
the service manager (he/she is only human and has to deal with a lot of
less-than-pleasant people every day)! When your approach is professional
and pleasant, seeking their assistance with a problem that just became
apparent, they can do A LOT to see if factory help is available.

Third, be realistic in your expectations (and it sounds like you are).
You'd be amazed at what some people expect/demand!

You won't get a complete paint job, but with the right approach, a
cooperative dealer, and a legitimate factory paint problem, you could get
considerable help in getting the damaged areas properly refinished.

Good luck!

Bruce Hanson
Apple Valley, MN



------------------------------

From: RQTHOMSON aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 17:49:26 EST
Subject: 351 Carb

I have recently replaced my 83 F100 300 I6 with a 351W w/headers, duals, etc.
The engine runs fine but the carb (a 750 Edelbrock that was worn out with the
engine) needs replacing because it leaks & is too big. Most of my driving (an
old man driving back & forth to work) is at less than 10% throttle & is
sooting up my new engine & exhaust. The question is do I use a 500 Edelbrock,
600 Edelbrock, or 600 Holley? If anyone has any experience with this, let me
know. I am definitely going with a smaller carb to get better mixing & can't
decide between the 500 & 600. The 750 works fine after I cleaned the garbage
& scum out of it but is very sensitive to throttle pressure & has a few small
leaks.

------------------------------

From: "Dave Harmier" pdq.net>
Subject: Re: Gas price and Propane
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 17:30:59 -0600

Okay guys, I won't do propane for two reasons. The 2000 dollar plus price
of admission, and the fact that if I wait in line at the local Randalls,
and swipe my "Remarkable Card" I get RU for 126.9.... GOTTA love Texas in
THAT respect!!!! (All other 2nd and 3rd tier stations are 132.9-134.9 for
RU.)

'Nuff a dat!

Dave H.
Houston (81 degrees 3:30pm 2-24-00) Send a Bit more cold air would ya?


------------------------------

From: Lingus0169 aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 18:34:56 EST
Subject: Re: 351 Carb

i have a 351w stock, and i plan on putting headers and a new carb. on in the
near future. i am going to replace my 2 bbl with a holley 650. my thinking is
if i ever decide to put more horespower in it, ill have the right carb for
the job. you can get a 650 holley for about $295, i think it also come with
electric choke, im not sure.
85 f250 xl 4x4 4spd
82 351w

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 21:02:52 -0500
From: flagship worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Gas price and Propane

It doesn't have to be $2000. A complete dual fuel unit including the
fuel tank went for $200 recently on ebay. Just a matter of looking
around.



Dave Harmier wrote:
>
> Okay guys, I won't do propane for two reasons. The 2000 dollar plus price
> of admission, and the fact that if I wait in line at the local Randalls,
> and swipe my "Remarkable Card" I get RU for 126.9.... GOTTA love Texas in
> THAT respect!!!! (All other 2nd and 3rd tier stations are 132.9-134.9 for
> RU.)
>
> 'Nuff a dat!
>

------------------------------

From: slikness mindspring.com
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 22:22:34 -0500
Subject: Re: 351 Carb

I would suggest the 600 cfm Edelbrock. They are a lot easier to work on and you don't have to adjust them as often. The Holleys, though, are built for performance and they give you a lot of different ways to dial them in. However, if you're at the strip, you're going to want it set up differently than if you're on the street, etc. The 600 cfm will take you easily into the 350-400 HP range without starving the fuel flow, and if you have the 2 bbl today, you have the smaller posrts in the heads which allow less flow to the cylinders anyway.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Slik

**************
> i have a 351w stock, and i plan on putting headers and a new carb. on in the near future. i am going to replace my 2 bbl with a holley 650. my thinking is ....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 21:20:02 -0600
From: Jim Cannon gtalumni.org>
Subject: Re: new seats

Rich-
You can do pretty much anything you set your mind to.

At 13:16 24/02/00 -0800, you wrote:
>I was wondering if anyone knows if I could swap in
>Lincoln leather seats in a 92-96 Bronco? thanks


Jim Cannon
Houston, TX "A Ramblin' Wreck from Georgia Tech
'29 Ford Model A Phaeton and a helluva' engineer!"
'80 Ford F-150 300 I-6 2WD '63 Buick Riviera 401 V-8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 21:42:51 -0600
From: Jim Cannon gtalumni.org>
Subject: Re: Propane and Natural Gas

The following is from http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.afdc.nrel.gov/documents/cn3.html

"CNG Conversion System

In CNG vehicles, the gas is stored at high pressures of 2,400 to
3,600 pounds per square inch (psi) in one or more cylinders usually
located under the body or in the trunk of the vehicle. The filling valve
is placed near the tank or in the front grille. When the gaseous fuel
leaves the cylinder tank, it travels through high-pressure fuel lines
into one or more pressure regulators where the CNG is reduced to
low atmospheric pressure."

It would take quite a little compressor to get the gas up to this pressure,
but it is doable. A good thing to do at home, overnight. I am not aware of
anyone offering such a system, but I think it is a good idea. The fittings
would have to be truely FOOL PROOF to be safe, or people would be blowing
up their garages right and left.

It is also possible to fill the tank faster if you transfer from
high-pressure storage tanks. When I get my scuba tank filled with air, they
use a system of multiple storage tanks to charge my tank. Each tank is at
progressivley higher pressure. This allows them to fill the tank in just a
few minutes. All that extra equipment would add to the cost, if you had it
in your garage.

At 16:11 24/02/00 -0500, Chris wrote:
>Have any of you had experience with natural gas powered vehicles? What are
>the requirements for filling one of these vehicles? At the risk of sounding
>stupid, I've got natural gas in my house to heat with, could I run a pipe to
>my garage and refill a natural gas vehicle from it? I would guess the tank
>would require more pressure than what's in the gas lines in my house so some
>sort of pump may be required, and the cost of that may make it impracticle,
>but the thought of being able to fill the tank in my own garage without the
>hassle of stopping at a gas station (except for long trips) would be great.

Jim Cannon
Houston, TX "A Ramblin' Wreck from Georgia Tech
'29 Ford Model A Phaeton and a helluva' engineer!"
'80 Ford F-150 300 I-6 2WD '63 Buick Riviera 401 V-8

------------------------------

From: SOBFROGG webtv.net (Scott Mummery)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 22:33:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: RE 96' F150 Rusting

Don't you just love living in the Chi town are. The fact that most towns
prefer to burn the snow off the road w/salt still makes me giggle:-).
I have a 95 F150 and every year I go on rust patrol. Granted I do not
have any rust on the painted side. As for warranty stay awa from Sessler
Ford in Libertyville. They are the biggest bunch of f**** heads around.
A friend of mine was having problems with the front suspension on a 96
F250 HD 4X all in all they had the truck for about a month and could not
find the problem. So he finally took my advice and went to Victor Ford
in Wauconda. To make a long story short Sessler had left the spring
shims that are used in transport in the spring packs. DUUUHHHHH. Any way
I just love telling people that tale.
By the way as for being anil about your truck my F150 Flareside has
130,000 miles it is a 95 4X4 w 5.8L and I pull it into the shop and it
gets washed once a week. In the winter time I turn the heat up to 85 so
all the door seals and locks will dry out. Good luck.
Scott
95 F150 Flareside SC 4X4 5.8L


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 00:31:01 -0500
From: Blake Malkamaki little-mountain.com>
Subject: Re: Propane, its a gas!

>If you have a big enough back, and can stand the odours, and the health
>inspectors don't shut you down, Why not??
>Although having just read Gary's post about the Porta-potti in the E van has
>got me doing some serious lateral thinking - How far could you go on a solid
>brecky of beans, onions & cabbage??? It creates an all new meaning to the term
>'Car Pooling' - Hmmm ..... Pfffttt, sorry...
>I want to see the Govt. try and take their tax share of this 'fuel' .....;-))
>

We run one of the 800 horsepower boilers at the plant I work on methane gas
from a landfill 3 miles away. It does a good job. Not as much BTU as
propane, but it is cheap.


Blake
Little Mountain
Concord, Ohio
Early Oil Well Historian http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://little-mountain.com/oilwell
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://little-mountain.com
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://little-mountain.com/blake
"Society is safest when the criminals don't know who's armed."
"An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject...."



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 00:39:23 -0500
From: Blake Malkamaki little-mountain.com>
Subject: Re: Propane and Natural Gas

>For those of you who have converted to propane, does it require a special
>filling station or can you take your truck to any place capable of refilling
>propane cylinders?
>
>Have any of you had experience with natural gas powered vehicles? What are
>the requirements for filling one of these vehicles? At the risk of sounding
>stupid, I've got natural gas in my house to heat with, could I run a pipe to
>my garage and refill a natural gas vehicle from it? I would guess the tank
>would require more pressure than what's in the gas lines in my house so some
>sort of pump may be required, and the cost of that may make it impracticle,
>but the thought of being able to fill the tank in my own garage without the
>hassle of stopping at a gas station (except for long trips) would be great.

Compressed natural gas would work fine, but you can not get too much into a
tank like you can propane. Therefore your range is very limited. Propane
turns to a liquid when compressed, so you can get a lot more into a can.
But natural gas will not turn to liquid unless cooled to about -200 degrees
F.

Natural gas (methane/ethane mixture) does not have as much BTU as propane,
so you will have to use more for the same power.


Blake
Little Mountain
Concord, Ohio
Early Oil Well Historian http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://little-mountain.com/oilwell
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://little-mountain.com
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://little-mountain.com/blake
"Society is safest when the criminals don't know who's armed."
"An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject...."



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 00:45:22 -0500
From: Blake Malkamaki little-mountain.com>
Subject: Re: Gas price and Propane

>Okay guys, I won't do propane for two reasons. The 2000 dollar plus price
>of admission, and the fact that if I wait in line at the local Randalls,
>and swipe my "Remarkable Card" I get RU for 126.9.... GOTTA love Texas in
>THAT respect!!!! (All other 2nd and 3rd tier stations are 132.9-134.9 for
>RU.)
>

If you live near the oilfields, just get some drip gas.


Blake
Little Mountain
Concord, Ohio
Early Oil Well Historian http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://little-mountain.com/oilwell
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://little-mountain.com
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://little-mountain.com/blake
"Society is safest when the criminals don't know who's armed."
"An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject...."



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 19:43:12 +1100
From: les williams cyber.net.au>
Subject: Re: Forklifts...


Fred Moreno wrote:

> Les, stop thinking about racing every engine on propane,
> although...forklift racing could be fun, especially if the forks are allowed
> to be used against your opponents machine...hmmm, the next Olympic sport???
> And yes a forklift is a very short rail sometimes on solid rubber tires,
> sometimes not, but they have the turning raduis any off-roader can only
> dream of having.
>
> Flash-to-pass Phred
> '95 F-150 4X4 propane or gasoline fed 5.0L with 171 K miles.
>

But as you know and your beloved employer would readily agree with, Racing
Improves the Breed, and promotes the product, be it an acceptance of Propane as
a fuel, OR MSD Ignition as a worthwhile investment over and above the stock
ignition system. I, like you probably are, am sick of peoples assumptions that
because it's on LPG, it sux !!! Come down here and run against the average
sydney cab, the drivers wouldn't wear it if it was total cr*p!!

In another post you mention the Impco Mixers, and I will apologize in advance to
all the proud Impco users, wouldn't you agree that it would be very difficult to
use the words 'performance' & 'Impco' to the positive, in the same sentence?
The GM Rodeo here in OZ (probably known to you as a Izusu SUV) V6 as a 'factory
approved' (read expensive) LPG conversion. Wow, what a sux, the more you push it
the leaner it runs, and no apparent way to richen the a/f ratio up high, guess
what , it's an Impco job.......now if it was a 'race proven' OHG 450X, the
choice of mr.a.k. miller, and our choice down here on large capacity Ford & Benz
V8's, that would be a world of difference!!! I apologize if I sound harsh but
these good people on this list need to learn from square one, mixers range in
price from $10 to $310 aud., you don't need to Einstein to figure out which end
of the price range the OHG comes from, and I do believe this is a case of you do
get what you pay for. There are other ways to save money on a conversion.
-----------------------------------------

For what it's worth, unless there has been a serious change over the last 12
months, there is a serious LACK of info on LPG/Propane (search under both) I
suspect it is more to do with Proprietary Information, people trying to maintain
a technical edge on the opposition. My theory anyway.
By all means find as much as you can but the best person to talk to already owns
a Ford, understands Fords, already uses Propane in a Ford, and has access to a
great 'toy room' (dyno room) I'd just die to have access to, and is already on
this list. - it is Phred. Get your best quote on components and post it here,
I'm sure Phred would be kind enough to comment on the quality of the deal for
which you are about to cut, and an educational process for the rest of us. ;-))

If you can access a reliable supply, take the big plunge and go all propane, and
build a propane engine, 10 or 11: 1 c/ratio etc. It's an all new, exciting scene
in engine building, after a pedestrian diet of 8.5's & 9.00 :1 engine builds to
appease the smog gods.

But I'm still having Fun in a propane fueled only Ford F100, just ask the
Hyundai, backwards fitted baseball capped, driver that stripped the left CV
joint trying to beat me at a traffic light G.P. this A.M....... Hehehehe ...
sucker ....
Sorry Phred, your right, - no more racing, today, anyway....

regards
Les
Lost in the land of OZ


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 23:13:24 +1100
From: les williams cyber.net.au>
Subject: Re: Propane and Natural Gas

Hi Chris,
How can you sound stupid asking a question about a subject most people arn't
even aware exists ? It's the start of a new adventure in auto engineering. The
availability of propane in OZ is no problem and with a range of about 900 k's
per refill, I would have to go way out into the sticks to get caught out. Just
as a side line, when the propane engine runs out of gas, instead of just rolling
to a stop, as you would with petrol fuelled truck, propane will just get slower
and keep rolling right on, running on tank fumes only. I couldn't coax the truck
over 60kph, but I did get another 8-9k's and made it to a refill station. An all
new meaning to the term of 'running on the smell of an oil rag'
Filling of the propane tank, outside mainland USA is a relativly simple, and a
self-serve job. Yes, it does reguire a little more patience as it is slower
filling, after all it is a closed fuel system and the supply pump has to
pressurise you tank to refill. Certainly, down here in OZ there is no venting of
the tank to the atmosphere, like when filling you BBQ bottle. It's so easy even
taxi drivers can do it!! ;-)) Phred or Chris can fill you in about USA it's
self.

IMHOpinion NGas has a ways to go. The pressures required to liguify ng are over
2k, so the containers look like industrial oxy bottles and just as heavy. I
believe it has been tested in some european countries. A VERY SERIOUS pump is
installed on your premises, which takes the ng from house line pressure to in
excess of 2k psi. This is an overnite operation. NO splash and dash here!!!
Every so often the State govt. down here does a news/publicity story on how they
are such caring/sharing/treehuggers and wheel out a Govt bus running on ng,
diesel/ng, hydrogen/diesel, diesel/politicians hot air is about it. A half ton
fuel tank is not a problem in this case.
Whulst you may be critical of the weight of the mild steel propane tanks vs
petrol tanks, if money is no object install stainless steel units, the added
bonus is light weight and like anything manufactured out of stainless steel,
just about last forever. Hot air balloons use them, and weight is critical for
balloons.

You seem to have answered your own question here, be it ng or battery power, the
quick refill on the long trip is the continuing problem, that's why I keep
coming back to the propane/lpg solution.

regards
Les
Lost in the Land of OZ.

"Mahaffey, Chris M" wrote:

> For those of you who have converted to propane, does it require a special
> filling station or can you take your truck to any place capable of refilling
> propane cylinders?
>
> Have any of you had experience with natural gas powered vehicles? What are
> the requirements for filling one of these vehicles? At the risk of sounding
> stupid, I've got natural gas in my house to heat with, could I run a pipe to
> my garage and refill a natural gas vehicle from it? I would guess the tank
> would require more pressure than what's in the gas lines in my house so some
> sort of pump may be required, and the cost of that may make it impracticle,
> but the thought of being able to fill the tank in my own garage without the
> hassle of stopping at a gas station (except for long trips) would be great.
>


------------------------------

From: "Peters, Gary (G.R.)" visteon.com>
Subject: Re: 351 Carb
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:00:34 -0500

The windsor came with a 500 cfm two barrel as I recall so a 500 or 600 would
work well enough. I have the old standby 600 Holley on my 351m/400 and it
works well enough but I understand that the Edlebrock, once properly tuned,
will meter better at low rpms and give you better throttle response down low
and better economy. I personally do not like the Holleys for the street :-(

If you have access to a spread bore manifold for that engine (no stock ones
I know of) the Rochester is a good choice for best economy and you can then
go to a larger over all CFM like the 750 which is pretty standard on chevy
small blocks. You can also put a rochester on an adapter on a square bore
manifold but won't get quite as nice performance that way.

The trick is to get signal strength at low rpms for best metering which is
what the small primaries of the spread bores are designed to do and yet
still have total CFM for WOT operation to get good top end performance.
I've said this before......the spread bore technology was the right place to
be for carbs but was cut off and development was stopped by EFI technology
but it was still light years ahead of square bore technology so if you want
the best of the best in carb technology, go to the spread bore format of one
kind or another unless you are only interested in one rpm for racing
purposes like the NASCAR boys :-)

Metering rod carbs will always deliver better economy at low rpms than other
types so even the square bore edlebrock or afb's are better than Holley's
for the street. If you really want it to rock put 8 SU's on there....then
get a good manometer to tune them.....and 8 O2 sensors and......:-)

--
Michigan, Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
--

>sooting up my new engine & exhaust. The question is do I use a
>500 Edelbrock,
>600 Edelbrock, or 600 Holley? If anyone has any experience
>with this, let me
>know. I am definitely going with a smaller carb to get better
>mixing & can't

------------------------------

From: "Peters, Gary (G.R.)" visteon.com>
Subject: Re: new seats
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:02:21 -0500

I got some 78's that are going in 78 bronco one day soon.....:-) Not
leather yet though, maybe when I get them reupholstered......some day :-)

--
Michigan, Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
--

>I was wondering if anyone knows if I could swap in
>Lincoln leather seats in a 92-96 Bronco? thanks

------------------------------

From: "Peters, Gary (G.R.)" visteon.com>
Subject: Re: 351 Carb
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 10:11:58 -0500

My first Holley was a rebuild I got from Murrays for $118 including the core
charge. I looked in the Holley replacement and original equipment list and
found a couple numbers to work on the 460 and asked specifically for those
numbers.....4411 I think was the number or 1144 (maybe it was 5411?), not
sure now but that's how I got acqainted with Holley for less money. Mind
you, I'm not recommending a Holley in any case but if you insist on getting
one, at least don't pay full price for it just to be discouraged later :-)

I actually still have that list if anyone wants to know which part number
goes with what application. I'll try to remember to look for it tonight and
bring it in. I have a bunch of numbers circled on it for the 460 but all
applications are on the list up to 70 or 80 something which is when the book
was published. Hard to believe it's been that long since I built my first....


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