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Subject: 80-96-list-digest V3 #349
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80-96-list-digest Friday, December 10 1999 Volume 03 : Number 349



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1980-1996 Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

Re: FTE 80-96 - Propane
FTE 80-96 - Re: Timing
FTE 80-96 - need a part
Re: FTE 80-96 - Propane
FTE 80-96 - off topic - Ford but not truck
FTE 80-96 - Landing lights
Re: FTE 80-96 - Propane conversion
Re: FTE 80-96 - Propane
Re: FTE 80-96 - Landing lights - Candle Power
FTE 80-96 - Cleaning an EGR Valve
Re: FTE 80-96 - Propane
FTE 80-96 - Da Gas...
FTE 80-96 - 96 F250 tranny noise
Re: FTE 80-96 - Propane
FTE 80-96 - Responding to the wrong person
FTE 80-96 - Recommended Source for Rebuilt C-6 Tranny?
Re: FTE 80-96 - Recommended Source for Rebuilt C-6 Tranny?
FTE 80-96 - ADMIN: New Ford trucks
FTE 80-96 - Propane conversion

=======================================================================

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 07:14:27 EST
From: FLR150 aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - Propane

In a message dated 12/9/99 2:02:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, chrism cnx.net
writes:


most things our trucks are overpowered to start with. >>
Chris,
OVERPOWERED TO START WITH? Holy moly, how can you say that a motor that comes
of the factory assembly line with 185 rwhp in a 5200 LB vehicle is
overpowered? If that is over powered to you then maybe you need to be driving
an old Honda CVCC with the 4 stroke 2 cylinder engine.
My .02
Wayne Foy
'94 Flareside SC
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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:27:44 EST
From: BanksRVA aol.com
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Re: Timing

Thanks to everyone who gave advice on my timing problem. I guess I will time
it by ear and drive on!
Joe
82 F100
300-I6
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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:57:50 -0600
From: "Joel Thomas"
Subject: FTE 80-96 - need a part

I am looking for the tranny cover that bolts to the floorboard that covers
that tranny and transfer case that would fit a 1984 F-150
the thing that you bolt the boots to.

thanks reasonably priced and not hacked up or anything perfectly normal.

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Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 07:13:07 +1100
From: les williams
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - Propane

Hi Jim,
It is necessary to change the advance curve on the Dizzy, propane curve is quite
different to the curve you would have with petrol.
Your choices here are :

* MSD dual curve Black ( or is it red??) Box to give you the optimum choice
on both fuels
* Leave the curve set for petrol and let the propane suffer.
* Set the curve for Propane and let the petrol suffer.
* Set the curve half way and let them both suffer. This is the option I have
seen the most of.
* Install Propane only and optimize for propane performance.

This is one of many decisions to be made, BUT you cannot have too much spark for
propane. The octane rating is higher for Propane. The stock dura spark is
probably o.k. just be sure it's 100% performing.
Phred has probably forgotten more about ignition systems than I'll ever know in
the first place. It's his job. He is 'the man' to tell you the difference
between Dura Spark & MSD. I changed to MSD and the slight odour that you get
with the engine idling disappeared, and starting was ever easier. In all
fairness, there is other multiple spark ignitions out there, I have no idea if
they are better or not.
A single propane system is far easier to tune and optimize for performance.
Propane has more torque down low and runs out of wind at about 5,000 rpm. How
often do you bump the tacho beyond 5,000 rpm? Under normal driving conditions
and I include the occasional traffic light G.P. in that, you would be hard
pressed to tell the difference. A duel set up is a poor compromise and you will
not get 100% out of either. Installers in OZ will probably want to kick my ass
for that statement, but that's reality. Come on down and run me!!

How did you go regards LPG supply ?
What do you normally use the truck for ? Daily driver ? Towing ?

regards

Les
Lost in the Land of OZ


"Moore, Jimmy" wrote:

> Why is it so necessary to change the ignition system? When you say change,
> does that mean the distributor, etc, or the key ignition?
>
> How about the power? Do you get the same power from the motor as with
> petro?
>
> Jim Moore
> 1981 Ford F-150 300 Six
> Oklahoma City, OK
>


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Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 14:38:51 -0600
From: Roy Houston
Subject: FTE 80-96 - off topic - Ford but not truck

Have a 94 Crown Vic at work that we lost the keys to and have no idea where
this thing transferred in from. Now since we don't know where we bought it
from we have to have it towed to the dealer to replace the ignition because
they won't (or can't) give out the key code.

Help! Anybody ever run across this. Wouldn't be a big deal 'cept the guy
was on personal business and is gonna get stuck for the $150.

How much to trouble to change the ignition switch if we just go buy it at
the dealer??

Tks, Roy


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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 13:51:58 -0600
From: Mark E Reimers
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Landing lights

Finding some housings is easy. Just get those tractor lights and use the
housing. It's the same size. I don't know if you can get just the
housing or not though.

- - Mark Reimers KB9ODG
'66 Bronco 170 I-6, 3-speed, 3.5" suspension lift, 3" body lift, 35"
tires ...
'87 F-150 XLT 4x2 300 I-6, 4-speed, two working fuel tanks!(finally)


> I've got a line on housings & will get back to the list with a
> source
> when I know they're available.
>
> Local NAPA stores (N.Texas) have not heard of landing lights...all
> they
> have are tractor lights. If anybody finds landing lights at NAPA,
> I'd
> appreciate hearing about it.
>
> HTH.
>
> steve in tx
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> ------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 09:15:21 +1100
From: les williams
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - Propane conversion

Hi Mark,
Since I'm in OZ, Phred or Chris may be able to point you in the right
direction, re: Kit Info
As for economy, no sorry you loose. Some people suggest 10-15% loss, but the
price is usually less. Today's price, Friday in Sydney is .78cpl for ULP fuel
and .36cpl for LPG. Unfortunately only you can do the maths and make the
call. On the above figures, which fuel does Sydney's taxi fleet use? On these
same figures you could cop a 50% loss and still be out in front on the
economy stakes, but don't forget you will be forking over a considerable sum
of money to convert to propane.
Did you see the post to Jim, with the suggested starting point questions ?
How did you fare?

regards
Les
Lost in the Land of OZ

Mark E Reimers wrote:

> Where does one get info or kits or whatever to run a vehicle on propane?
>
> Would one get better gas milage with Propane? I'm sure it burns cleaner,
> and makes slightly less power(read, not much at all), but is it really
> worth it to someone in the Midwest USofA that does a lot of hiway driving
> and some around town driving?
>
> - Mark Reimers KB9ODG
> '66 Bronco 170 I-6, 3-speed, 3.5" suspension lift, 3" body lift, 35"
> tires ...
> '87 F-150 XLT 4x2 300 I-6, 4-speed, two working fuel tanks!(finally)
> ___________________________________________________________________
> Why pay more to get Web access?
> Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
> Get your free software today: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
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Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 09:15:51 +1100
From: les williams
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - Propane

FLR150 aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/9/99 2:02:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, chrism cnx.net
> writes:
>
>
> most things our trucks are overpowered to start with. >>
> Chris,
> OVERPOWERED TO START WITH? Holy moly, how can you say that a motor that comes
> of the factory assembly line with 185 rwhp in a 5200 LB vehicle is
> overpowered? If that is over powered to you then maybe you need to be driving
> an old Honda CVCC with the 4 stroke 2 cylinder engine.
> My .02
> Wayne Foy
> '94 Flareside SC
>

Hi Wayne,
As a dedicated non-reformed street racer, there is no such thing as 'Too Much
Power'.
I did see an F350 7.3 ltr (460 cid) on propane and it went like a scalded cat to
about 2,000 rpm, and that was about that. An old Bloke owned it and was told he
would loose power, so when his truck wouldn't perform he blamed it on the
propane, but it did improve the fuel economy.
He sold it to a young bloke who soon found he could beat almost anything in first
gear, and things fizzled out in second. So he sold the truck. I saw the truck at
a propane conversion shop, the owner had just bought it for a song. The young
bloke was convinced that the lousy performance was due to Propane, so he thought
himself lucky to get the pittance he was offered for it. The proprietor of the
shop invited me to look at the truck, knowing my interest in all things propane &
'F' series.
The mixer was a woosy little single barrel affair sitting on a stack of 3 reducer
adapter plates, from the normal 4 bbl inlet manifold, to this very poor excuse of
a mixer. The licensed LPG installer that did this job should have been taken out
the back and Shot for this criminal act of vandalism to a Ford Truck. (-
probably a Ch*vy sympathizer!!)
A new correct sized mixer was installed solving all the problems in one hit. Ran
hard all the way to 5.000 rpm, no worries. If there is a power loss, it should be
almost negligible, or else find out why!! And asking your local mechanic or Ford
Dealer will in most cases be a waste of time.

regards

Les
Lost in the Land of OZ

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Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 14:18:52 PST
From: "ken haley"
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - Landing lights - Candle Power

>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: ken haley
>To:
>Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 4:15 PM
>Subject: RE: FTE 80-96 - Landing lights
>
>
> > Okay,
> >
> > Candlepower = the intensity of light from one candle. Really doesn't
>mean
>a
> > thing. Advertising gimmick. I actually teach a physics lesson on this
>topic.
> > Go by wattage and beam pattern, all else being equal. Note that
>different
> > types of filament/glass/in-bulb environment yield different colors and
> > intensities of light emitted. Stick with Cibie and you can't go wrong,
>but
> > you will pay for what you get. Otherwise, you get what you pay for. :)
> >
> > Ken
> >
>Well, .... no. There is a relationship between Watts and Candle Power.
>
>1 Watt is apporoximately 8377.3 Candle power.
>
>So a 500,000 Candle Power hand held is about the same as a 60 Watt Lamp
>or a 1,000,000 Candle Power rating is about the same as 120 Watt lamp.
>
>So when you plug one of those into your lighter, it's drawing 5 or 10 Amps.
>
>Matt

Matt,

Much more is involved in lighting than wattage or candlepower. "Watt" and
"Candlepower" are like interchanging apples and oranges. They are both
fruit, but using oranges in Gramma's apple pie recipe will sure cause a stir
at the family's holiday dinner.

Exactly how bright is a candle shined at a 'roo or white tail dear at a
range of 100 meters, anyway? Candlepower relates to the amount of light
energy emitted AT THE FILAMENT, or at whatever distance from the filament
the seller thinks is groovy, and has next to nothing to do with
illumination. On top of that, the driving and fog lights of the same power
ould have much different candlepower ratings at the same distances because
of the way the beams are focused. Obviously, the use of the term
"candlepower" is quite ill-defined.

Also, the "watts" you are referring to measures the amount of electrical
electrical energy flowing through the bulb. "Candlepower" is supposed to
measure the amount of light energy emitted by the bulb. Bulbs of a certain
wattage could emit a range of candlepowers depending on the materials each
bulb is made of and the design of the bulb. Therefore, your
watts/candlepower ratio is accurate for one bulb, but certainly not every
bulb. An easy, at-home example: compare the intensity of a 100 watt
incandescent and a pair of 40 watt florescent tubes. Which fixture makes
more light? The flourescents, even though their combined wattage is only 80%
of the incandescent's.

Like I said before, "candlepower" doesn't mean diddly written on the side of
a box--there is no industry standard for measurement. A better comparison
would be "Lumens/cm^3 (a measure of the amount of light energy striking a
surface) at 100 meters with X clarity within Ydegrees of vertical and Z
degrees of horizontal dispersion". Don't expect this to happen, though,
because then direct comparisons would be valid, and advertising agencies
hate that.

Pay the money for name-brand equipment that is legal and serves your
purpose. I don't think Cibie has followed Fram unto the list of good
reputations gone bad, yet.

Ken
>
> >
> > >Does anyone know how this wattage would compare to a handheld
>spotlight?
> > >When a spotlight is purchased they always seem to rate them in candle
> > >power,
> > >like 500,000 or 1,000,000. I know it probably varies with bulb type
> > >(halogen vs. xenon) and things, but is there an approximate conversion
>from
> > >watts to candle power? I had a friend who had taken an aircraft
>landing
> > >light and mounted it in a sauce pan to create a handheld spotlight from
>it.
> > >It was very bright but it didn't seem to have the same focused beam of
>a
> > >commercial spotlight.
> > >
> > >Chris
>
>
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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 14:18:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Roger Lane
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Cleaning an EGR Valve

I need to remove and clean my EGR valve. Are there any pointers or quick
tips that anyone can pass on? As in: any difficulty removing the valve,
what type of cleaner can be used?
I would also like to pass on some information. Recently my fuel mileage
went to crap (from 14 to 9 mpg), I also had some pinging that I had never
heard before. My computer codes told me the MAP sensor was reading out of
range. (Code 22) I swapped in a different MAP sensor and all seems to be
well. No more pinging, I won't know about the fuel mileage until I fill the
tank, and no more code 22. Now I just have a code 52, EVP sensor not
functioning right. So I thought I would clean the EGR valve and see if it
would help. Any information that I can get from the infinite wisdom of this
group would be greatly appreciated (blatently sucking up to get some info).
By the way, I'm working on a '89 F250 4x4 w/ 5.0l.
TIA
Roger
lanero excite.com

"Accomplishing the impossible only means the boss will add it to your
regular duties."





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Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 14:51:41 PST
From: "ken haley"
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - Propane

>
>Hi Wayne,
> As a dedicated non-reformed street racer, there is no such thing as
>'Too Much
>Power'.
s be a waste of time.
>
>regards
>
>Les
>Lost in the Land of OZ

Les,

You are correct. There is no such thing as "too much power". There may not
even be such a thing as "enough power", which is "never being able to use it
all". I suppose a Keith Black hemi in a dart would be "enough power", but it
wouldn't run long enough to find out.

Ken

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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 16:59:41 -0700
From: Fred Moreno
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Da Gas...

You guys are really cruel... the day my Quantum Physics final exams kicks
the beejeezus out of every brain cell available, everybody decides to jump
on the propane and ignition question.

Jim Moore questions the feasability of propane, and you being in Oklahoma,
you are lucky to have a good man not too far that can answer all your
question pertaining to cost for the system, fuel, where to buy etc... Call
Joe Anderson with R&W Supply in Tulsa, his number is 918-665-0400. Tell him
I gave you his number.

Joe and I have been good friends for a long time, we talk about lots of
subject to include propane quality conversion and who still does them
(that's what you need to know), horses, hay, and women. He is also the
supplier for Vortok air cleaner assemblies, which in my personal opinion is
far better than anything K&N ever dreamed up. Vortoks manufactures air
cleaner assemblies for locomotives, big tractor trailers rigs, heavy
equipment, etc...is that tough enough? The assembly I recieved is a Ford
factory replacement, uses the factory air snorkel and tubes. American made.

But one important thing that is different with the US versus Canada (and
most likely OZ), is that we do not have the fueling infrastructure the two
other countries have. Here in the US good luck finding propane after 5
o'clock on a weekday. Saturdays you can often find it up until noon, and
doing good if the propane shops are still open till 5. Sundays is usually a
lost cause. Now there is always someplace to buy propane like some truck
stops or gas stations that stay open all night, but man are you going to pay
for that service. Typically 50% more.
This is why here in the US most propane vehicles are capable of using
gasoline as a back-up. You just about have to (except for this idiot when he
had a Nissan 4X4 p/u). Planning was required whenever I was going on a trip.
I had to be at such and such a place BEFORE they closed or else you park.
In Canada, most gasoline pump islands has a propane pump also. So many
convience stores sell the stuff. At least this is what I saw in BC and
Alberta. Canadian list members, please inform me if this is right or not.
You do lose a small amount of power with propane because of the
displacement of oxygen due to the volume of a gas entering the combustion
chamber. A drop of liquid gasoline takes up less space than a shot of
propane gas, so you have less oxygen for the fire. You got to have oxygen to
go boom. The less oxygen in the combustion chamber, the less boom you get.
But you can make up for a little of that loss by modifying the ignition
timing curve. You're dealing with a whole different fuel characteristics
than gasoline. Your BTU's are about 10% less with propane (that's where the
energy is found) but you have anywhere from 95 to 105 octane, depending on
the grade and contents. Do you really believe the standards for propane are
stricly enforced like they are for gasoline? Yeah, right.
So anyways with a higher octane fuel, you can advance your timing under
certain conditions to make up for that loss in BTU and oxygen. But this is
not something lenear, so don't go up jacking the distributor by 5 degrees.
That's where the product that Autotronic (MSD ignition) comes in.
Also you have certain diagnostic features that are going to go crazy if you
start using propane with a computer controlled electronic fuel injected
vehicle. Remember the Check Engine light? That's where the product that
Autotronic (MSD ignition) comes in.
Another thing is that now you are not running a closed loop system anymore,
that is your computer is no longer controlling the fuel input into the
engine (via the gasoline injectors). That's going to really make your fuel
consumption affect the life of your catalytic converter. So you need
something that controls the propane flow into the engine based on RPM and
load. That's where the product that Autotronic (MSD ignition) comes in.
Ignition: Gasoline roughly takes about 600 degrees F to ignite a perfect
Air/Fuel (A/F) ratio, and propane requires about 850 degrees F for the same
conditions. This is off the top of my head so the figures might be a little
off, but the differential is what is important. Remember I am a little
duh-ed out right now.
So the requirement for ignition muscle is significantly more for propane
than gasoline, implying that your secondary ignition will work harder and
have more stress put on it when using propane. If you have a component on
the verge of failure in your secondary ignition, it is guaranteed to become
a problem when you switch fuels. High energy ignitions will certainly
benefit the users of propane, but that's not to say a Duraspark or factory
TFI-IV is insufficient. As long as the spark plugs, spark plug wires, coil,
cap and rotor are in good shape, you will be fine. But would you rather
light a fire with a single match or use a torch?
I apologize for the use of excessive bandwith, but this is propane 101 in a
nutshell. I've been writing this off and on between tasks here at work, so
there may be some ramblin'. Plus I have no idea what my name is today, damn
guys any other day but today!
The person who corrected me about water and the oxygen sensor is absolutely
correct about the carbon fouling the sensor. I should of had my hat on
straight.
Les and Mark, I will get back to you guys the next time the sun comes up.
Time to go home...where's my pillow??

Phred KD5AQB
a;slfjfkoaief'lekdseei'

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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 17:53:13 -0700
From: Curt Anderson
Subject: FTE 80-96 - 96 F250 tranny noise

I have a 96 F250 that has a drive train noise when the clutch is depressed
removing power to the rear wheels. This is most noticeable at under 5 MPH
when in any gear. It sounds like excessive backlash in the differential,
but sounds as if it is coming from the transmission or clutch area. The
truck drives great at higher speeds with no noise, unless it is bucked with
the gas pedal. The differential, u-joints and slip yoke are all within Ford
specs according to a Ford factory service manual. I have checked and
tightened the yoke on the transfer case. After spending hours trying to
track the noise down I assumed that the noise must be coming from the
transmission. The tranny was pulled and taken to a tranny shop for
repair. All that they found were some worn syncros which were replaced. I
also replaced the throw out bearing, but not the pilot bearing which felt
OK (kind of foolish I might add, but I did not want to get into the
clutch). The fluid in the transfer case and differential were clean (no
chunks or shavings). The tranny shop and I are at a loss as to where the
noise is coming from. I hope some one might have some suggestions. I have
heard that this tranny is typically somewhat noisy, but is this type of
noise common?

* 96 F250 4X4 long bed extended cab with 62k miles
* 460, S5-47 (ZF #1317) 5speed, Borg-Warner 44-07 heavy duty manual
shift transfer case, lock out hubs.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Curt Anderson
Cander qwestinternet.net

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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 21:34:38 EST
From: FLR150 aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - Propane

In a message dated 12/9/99 5:16:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
lesw cyber.net.au writes:


Much
Power'. >>
Les,
Oh brother don't I know it. I took my 5.0 l from the mediocre at best 185
rear wheel HP to a whopping 300 rwhp monster. I have pushed my 5200 LB
Flareside Supercab to a best of 14.4 98mph, with mostly "bolt-ons" and some
good tuning, not to mention a little bit of the "juice". And as an incurable
street racer(out every Friday and Saturday unless it rains), I make my share
of the sucker money, do to the "Work Truck" look. Have a look at my site and
tell me what you think. Wa
yne's Flareside/Ford Welcome Page. I am still in the process of updating
my site to include all my new mods and PICS...but it will be all updated
soon. I have asked a LOT of questions and built my combo slowly and steadily
to make sure it was right.
Anyway....enough of my rambling
Later
Wayne Foy
'94 Flareside SC
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Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 22:08:43 -0500
From: Ken Payne
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Responding to the wrong person

Forwarded for: dale fortenberry jr

I noticed in my last digest that someone had sent a response to the
wrong person. I can see how this is easy to do with this digest. Now I
don't want to ruffle feathers, but out of the several digests that I
s*bscribe to, this is the only one where the members re-send the entire
origianl message, or at least big chunks of it with their responses.
Add to this the fact that some people get each message individually and
others get them in bulk, and you have a very sloppy, hard to read
digest. Am I alone in feeling this way? One of the other digests I
s*bscribe to has the responses numbered so that I can scroll down to the
part I want to read. That is SO nice.

Just my opinion.

Dale Fortenberry Jr.


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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:23:28 EST
From: Awfanning aol.com
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Recommended Source for Rebuilt C-6 Tranny?

A buddy here at work has an '80 F-150 4x4 with 351W engine and C-6
transmission. Mileage is just shy of 100k and tranny is apparently acting up
the morning, before it warms up. Not really sure of the deatils (or looking
for a diagnosis, for that matter) but wondering if there are any universally
recognized (i.e., "good") sources for replacement C-6 transmissions. Summit
Racing, for example, offers a rebuilt unit from TCI for about $950 plus $95
shipping.

Alan Fanning
San Jose
'91 Taurus SHO, '89 Sable, and '82 F-150
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 23:02:54 -0500
From: "slik"
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - Recommended Source for Rebuilt C-6 Tranny?

I purchased a TCI from Jegs and I like it. I put in the 2000 rpm stall
convertor and, in retrospect, probably should have stayed stock. I only
have a 2.73 rear and I need to go to 3.55s or 3.89s to get it to really work
together. TPI also rebuilds C6s and has an excellent reputation. I stopped
at their booth at the auto show last month and I was impressed with what I
saw. You can find them advertised in Street Rodding or Hot Rod.

Slik

- ----- Original Message ----- >...wondering if there are any universally
> recognized (i.e., "good") sources for replacement C-6 transmissions.
Summit
> Racing, for example, offers a rebuilt unit from TCI for about $950 plus
$95
> shipping.
>


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 00:23:33 -0500
From: Ken Payne
Subject: FTE 80-96 - ADMIN: New Ford trucks

Check out the news section of the web site. Several Ford
Motor Company press releases have been added about the
2000 F150s, including new models and also about the new
Explorer Sport.

Ken Payne
Admin, Ford Truck Enthusiasts

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 20:46:28 +1000
From: =?Windows-1252?Q?Jos=E9_&_Susan_Ozorio?=
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Propane conversion

Hi from the land downunder.
I have a '90 F150 XLT 4x4 (351w EFI) (C6 Auto) with dual fuel installed. By....


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