From: owner-80-96-list-digest ford-trucks.com (80-96-list-digest)
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Subject: 80-96-list-digest V3 #294
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80-96-list-digest Wednesday, October 20 1999 Volume 03 : Number 294



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1980-1996 Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

Re: FTE 80-96 - I6-300 stuff
Re: FTE 80-96 - I6-300 stuff
RE: FTE 80-96 - 93, 460 F-350 vs 94 F-250 turb diesel
FTE 80-96 - 460 vs. diesel
Re: FTE 80-96 - 460 vs. diesel
Re: FTE 80-96 - 460 vs. diesel
Re: FTE 80-96 - 460 vs. diesel
Re: FTE 80-96 - I6-300 stuff
Re: FTE 80-96 - 460 vs. diesel
FTE 80-96 - Headlights adjustment
Re: FTE 80-96 - Headlights adjustment
RE: FTE 80-96 - 93, 460 F-350 vs 94 F-250 turb diesel
RE: FTE 80-96 - 93, 460 F-350 vs 94 F-250 turb diesel
FTE 80-96 - Engine Thermostats
FTE 80-96 - Any Suggestions???
Re: FTE 80-96 - Engine Thermostats

=======================================================================

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 06:47:58 EDT
From: FLR150 aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - I6-300 stuff

In a message dated 10/19/99 1:56:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
persell home.com writes:

>
It seems lately I have a differing opinion to a quite a few posts. Again I
disagree. While I do not know much about the I-6 motors, I can tell you that
MOST of the V-8 Ford motors favor a cooler than stock Tstat. The stock Tstat
runs at 195-210 depending on the model year, application, and motor size.
Most of the Ford V-8's will run much better and cooler with the 180 degree
Tstat. Although, any temp below this will keep the EEC computers in their
start up "closed loop" modes.
My.02
Wayne Foy
'94 Flareside SC
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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:11:20 -0400
From: "Michael McCarthy"
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - I6-300 stuff

I don't know squat about thermostats in Ford trucks but I do know that ever
since I put a 195 degree thermostat in my '85 I6 300 it has purred like a
kitten. I don't know what was in it before but whatever it was it stuck open
and had to be replaced. My lucky day.

Michael McCarthy
Export, PA

- -----Original Message-----
From: FLR150 aol.com
To: 80-96-list ford-trucks.com
Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 6:49 AM
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - I6-300 stuff


>In a message dated 10/19/99 1:56:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>persell home.com writes:
>
>>
>It seems lately I have a differing opinion to a quite a few posts. Again I
>disagree. While I do not know much about the I-6 motors, I can tell you
that
>MOST of the V-8 Ford motors favor a cooler than stock Tstat. The stock
Tstat
>runs at 195-210 depending on the model year, application, and motor size.
>Most of the Ford V-8's will run much better and cooler with the 180 degree
>Tstat. Although, any temp below this will keep the EEC computers in their
>start up "closed loop" modes.
>My.02
>Wayne Foy
>'94 Flareside SC
>== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:41:57 -0400
From: Greg Carter
Subject: RE: FTE 80-96 - 93, 460 F-350 vs 94 F-250 turb diesel

Hi,
I would agree with Blake on the solid front axle however only if

You do serious off road.
You do a lot of snow plowing.

If all you need it for is the occasional 4x4 to get through the mud on the
job site, or pull your boat out of the water then the IFS is fine, and in
fact a much nicer ride.

Bye.

Greg Carter
Entrust Technologies - http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.entrust.com
http://www.ford-trucks.com/articles/buildup/dana60.html


- -----Original Message-----
From: Blake Malkamaki [mailto:blake little-mountain.com]
Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 9:33 PM
To: 80-96-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - 93, 460 F-350 vs 94 F-250 turb diesel



BUT, as far as the truck itself goes, I personally would go with a solid
axle truck anytime over an independent suspension front end. So unless you
can find an F-350 diesel, you will have a difficult choice to make.

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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:04:59 -0500
From: BAH NWC.EDU
Subject: FTE 80-96 - 460 vs. diesel

>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:07:26 -0400
>From: James Oxley
>Subject: FTE 80-96 - 93, 460 F-350 vs 94 F-250 turb diesel

>Hi all

>I am considering purchasing a newer pickup.
>These are my two choices so far.

>First one was a 93, F-350 XLT with 460.
>Std cab, loaded with 95K. Asking 11,900$.

>Second was a 94, F-250 XLT with turbo diesel.
>Std cab, Loaded with 68K. Asking 15,475$

>How are diesels in the winter?? I know I won't
>be happy having to plug it in every night.

Where do you live? Your climate is going
to influence how you feel about the truck.
You can't just jump in and turn the key!

Here in Minnesota they perform wonderfully...
so long as the pre-ignition relay and coils
are in good shape and you always plug in
the block heater.

Once running, the driveability and torque
of a diesel are hard to beat, but they are
a different animal. The PowerStroke diesel
is a great engine, but maintenance and
repair costs are significantly higher.

Bruce Hanson
Apple Valley, MN


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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 11:25:52 -0400
From: James Oxley
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - 460 vs. diesel

> Where do you live? Your climate is going
> to influence how you feel about the truck.
> You can't just jump in and turn the key!
>

Central Jersey, so it can get cold here, although it's been pretty mild
for the past couple years.

> Here in Minnesota they perform wonderfully...
> so long as the pre-ignition relay and coils
> are in good shape and you always plug in
> the block heater.

I would not be into that, I'm sure.


> Once running, the driveability and torque
> of a diesel are hard to beat, but they are
> a different animal. The PowerStroke diesel
> is a great engine, but maintenance and
> repair costs are significantly higher.

What kind of maint. batteries, oil changes? I've driven the powerstroke
in a 92 Centurion and I was not impressed with the power. Does the turbo
diesel have a lot more power.


> Well the diesel should get a lot more milage than the 460, but unless it
> has overdrive it will probably only get about 14 mpg. If it has OD, it may
> get close to 20 depending on gearing. The diesel will outtouque the 460,
> but needs higher gearing to get its benefits.
>
> The diesel will probably have a better resale value and will make up the
> price difference.

I figured it out and I'd have to drive 60,000 miles to recoupe the
3000$ difference in price that seems to accompany identical diesel rigs
with like milage.

> BUT, as far as the truck itself goes, I personally would go with a solid
> axle truck anytime over an independent suspension front end. So unless you
> can find an F-350 diesel, you will have a difficult choice to make.

Yes, I drove my friends 91 F-250 and it seemed to wander a lot. Even
more than my stock 79 Bronco. I've driven 95 Broncos that wander pretty
good. I not a big fan of TTB.

>I would agree with Blake on the solid front axle however only if

>You do serious off road.

I do, but won't be with this truck. I might even stuff a solid axle 44
under the front to keep the weight down and make ride a little better.

>You do a lot of snow plowing.

Nope, no plowing. I'm curious though, did they ever make auto hubs for a
dana 60 front?

>If all you need it for is the occasional 4x4 to get through the mud on >the job site, or pull your boat out of the water then the IFS is fine, >and in fact a much nicer ride.

What I realy need it for is to tow my 78 Bronco to the trails. I tried
towing it with my 79 Bronco, but the Bronco was not happy towing that
much weight. My 78 Bronc weighs 6600 lbs (with dana 60's, 44" boggers
and gear) and my trailer is about 2200. I will not be towing more than
60 miles and mostly flat ground.


Thanks for all the replies. I'm going to drive the 460 at lunch
today.


OX
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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 11:29:36 -0400
From: "Doug ( DJ Fire )"
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - 460 vs. diesel

Date: October 19, 1999 10:26 AM
Subject: FTE 80-96 - 460 vs. diesel

>>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:07:26 -0400
>>From: James Oxley
>>Subject: FTE 80-96 - 93, 460 F-350 vs 94 F-250 turb diesel


> Once running, the driveability and torque
> of a diesel are hard to beat, but they are
> a different animal. The PowerStroke diesel
> is a great engine, but maintenance and
> repair costs are significantly higher.
>
> Bruce Hanson
> Apple Valley, MN
>
>
NAW - Diesels aren't more expensive. ( Sighing heavily ) How about my $
900.oo Alternator? Or the cost of replacing 6 tires. Remembering that the
tires have to be of a certain load capacity. What about $ 40.oo per glow
plug. ( 8 in system )

- 86 F-350 11,000 lbs. - 6.9L Diesel Dually "Jam-1" ( It is a retired
ambulance ) The Alternator is a 200 AMP Alternator.

Firefitr cxp.com


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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:23:36 -0400
From: Mike Sloane
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - 460 vs. diesel

I think that everyone's experiences with diesel engined trucks are going to
be different. One of my trucks is an '87 F350 with 6.9L diesel and "mason
dump" body rated at 10,000 lbs. When you take into consideration that you are
working with a dually rear axle and huge "E" load rated tires, it doesn't
handle all that badly. Now that it has the steering components tightened up
or replaced, new shocks, and new tires in front, the steering is pretty good
(for a big light truck). But acceleration with the 5 speed transmission can
best be described as "leisurely" at best because of the narrow torque band of
the diesel. On the plus side, it seems to make very little difference whether
the truck is unloaded or pulling a trailer with antique tractor behind
(until you get to a steep hill). As far as expense to operate, everything
seems to cost more on a diesel - the biggest shock was the exhaust system
(which, fortunately, seem to last a lot longer than gasoline exhausts).

Frankly, if I didn't use a truck for plowing snow, I would have looked for a
gas powered truck. But I really like the low end torque of a diesel for road
work and for hauling salt & sand. I also freely admit that I get a kick out
of driving a big noisy diesel V-8 now and then, but I think that would get
old real fast if I had to use it daily for my 80 mile round trip commute.

I understand that the new diesel engines are a little more powerful than
mine, but I also understand that fuel filters for them cost about $30, oil
filters $15, etc. And around here in northern NJ, the cost of diesel fuel is
about the same as regular gasoline, so there is no savings there. On the plus
side, my engine is lacking all that computerized junk that seems to cause 90%
of the problems I read about on this list. It is nice to look into an engine
compartment and see an engine, instead of a bunch of wires, hoses, and
mysterious black boxes.

One side note - when driving the diesel truck I am much less likely to
encounter deer in the road at night than when I am driving my other truck or
car. I guess the noise (or smell!) scares them away or something.
mike

"Doug ( DJ Fire )" wrote:

> Date: October 19, 1999 10:26 AM
> Subject: FTE 80-96 - 460 vs. diesel
>
> >>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:07:26 -0400
> >>From: James Oxley
> >>Subject: FTE 80-96 - 93, 460 F-350 vs 94 F-250 turb diesel
>
> > Once running, the driveability and torque
> > of a diesel are hard to beat, but they are
> > a different animal. The PowerStroke diesel
> > is a great engine, but maintenance and
> > repair costs are significantly higher.
> >
> > Bruce Hanson
> > Apple Valley, MN
> >
> >
> NAW - Diesels aren't more expensive. ( Sighing heavily ) How about my $
> 900.oo Alternator? Or the cost of replacing 6 tires. Remembering that the
> tires have to be of a certain load capacity. What about $ 40.oo per glow
> plug. ( 8 in system )
>
> - 86 F-350 11,000 lbs. - 6.9L Diesel Dually "Jam-1" ( It is a retired
> ambulance ) The Alternator is a 200 AMP Alternator.
>
> Firefitr cxp.com
>
> == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

- --

- ------------
Mike Sloane
Allamuchy NJ
(msloane att.net)



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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:22 -0500
From: Jason D Odor
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - I6-300 stuff

What is the ratification of staying in there closed loop mode or start up mode?




mpmccarthy worldnet.att.net on 10/19/99 07:19:33 AM
Please respond to 80-96-list ford-trucks.com JCI
To: 80-96-list ford-trucks.com JCI
cc: (bcc: Jason D Odor/TAYMI/ASG/Johnson_Controls)
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - I6-300 stuff

I don't know squat about thermostats in Ford trucks but I do know that ever
since I put a 195 degree thermostat in my '85 I6 300 it has purred like a
kitten. I don't know what was in it before but whatever it was it stuck open
and had to be replaced. My lucky day.

Michael McCarthy
Export, PA

- -----Original Message-----
From: FLR150 aol.com
To: 80-96-list ford-trucks.com
Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 6:49 AM
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - I6-300 stuff


>In a message dated 10/19/99 1:56:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>persell home.com writes:
>
>>
>It seems lately I have a differing opinion to a quite a few posts. Again I
>disagree. While I do not know much about the I-6 motors, I can tell you
that
>MOST of the V-8 Ford motors favor a cooler than stock Tstat. The stock
Tstat
>runs at 195-210 depending on the model year, application, and motor size.
>Most of the Ford V-8's will run much better and cooler with the 180 degree
>Tstat. Although, any temp below this will keep the EEC computers in their
>start up "closed loop" modes.
>My.02
>Wayne Foy
>'94 Flareside SC
>== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:49:24 -0400
From: James Oxley
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - 460 vs. diesel

Well,

I drove the F-350 at lunch. Serious power there. Got up to 90 real easy
on the highway. Had a hard time not frying the tires taking off.

Other than that it was a POS. TG was falling off (literally). Under
the hood looked like one of my trail rigs after it was swamped. It
wasn't muddy, it had waterlines (maybe a NC truck from the floods??).
Rotors were shot. Trans shifted so hard, I thought it was gonna fall out
(dealer claims a shift kit was installed :-)). Interior was rough,
rattling and it had massive wind noise on the passenger side. Also felt
like whole front axle was loose, although the underside looked good. It
was used by a landscaper, so it obviously led a hard life.

Thanks again

OX
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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:52:35 -0700
From: "Gerald L. Hinkle Jr. CPA"
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Headlights adjustment

Hey list dudes,

I completed the install of my new suspension system on my truck. I was
very appreciative of the instructions you guys gave me on measuring the
headlights aim prior to and figuring where they should be aimed after but
one problem. all comments told me of adjustment screws along the edge of
the head lights but they just don't exist. How in the heck do you make the
aiming adjustment on my truck? I have a 1994 F-350. Where are the
adjustment screws? I did notice a small rod like peg sticking up behind
the lights, under the hood, could this be involved? Any help is
appreciated because due to the 4" lift and new 35" BFG's the headlights are
pointed to the sky! (did not alter the rear suspension)

Jerry Hinkle
1994 F-350 Crew Cab 4x4
http://www.ford-trucks.com/pictorial/big/1994_f350_1.html
"LTS-ROK" 80 JEEP CJ-5
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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 11:23:04 PDT
From: "Christopher Worley"
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - Headlights adjustment

On my '93 F150 There is a Hex rod right behind the headlight, under the
hood. When I was at Autozone the other day I noticed that they also have a
tool to adjust this. All it is is a ratchet handle with the hex socket on
the other end. You should be allright using a socket and wrench (if you
need to come down a lot.)
Good luck and let me know how it goes.


Chris Worley
'93 F150 Super Cab 351


>From: "Gerald L. Hinkle Jr. CPA"
>Reply-To: 80-96-list ford-trucks.com
>To: "ford trucks"
>Subject: FTE 80-96 - Headlights adjustment
>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:52:35 -0700
>
>Hey list dudes,
>
>I completed the install of my new suspension system on my truck. I was
>very appreciative of the instructions you guys gave me on measuring the
>headlights aim prior to and figuring where they should be aimed after but
>one problem. all comments told me of adjustment screws along the edge of
>the head lights but they just don't exist. How in the heck do you make the
>aiming adjustment on my truck? I have a 1994 F-350. Where are the
>adjustment screws? I did notice a small rod like peg sticking up behind
>the lights, under the hood, could this be involved? Any help is
>appreciated because due to the 4" lift and new 35" BFG's the headlights are
>pointed to the sky! (did not alter the rear suspension)
>
>Jerry Hinkle
>1994 F-350 Crew Cab 4x4
>http://www.ford-trucks.com/pictorial/big/1994_f350_1.html
>"LTS-ROK" 80 JEEP CJ-5
>== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

______________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:21:31 -0500
From: Blake Malkamaki
Subject: RE: FTE 80-96 - 93, 460 F-350 vs 94 F-250 turb diesel

>Hi,
>I would agree with Blake on the solid front axle however only if
>
>You do serious off road.
>You do a lot of snow plowing.
>
>If all you need it for is the occasional 4x4 to get through the mud on the
>job site, or pull your boat out of the water then the IFS is fine, and in
>fact a much nicer ride.
>

I have driven solid axle F-350s that rode better than IFS F-250s. One big
advantage is that they start out taller and can use bigger tires without
modifications.


Blake
Little Mountain
Concord, Ohio
Early Oil Well Historian http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://little-mountain.com/oilwell
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://little-mountain.com
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://little-mountain.com/blake
"Society is safest when the criminals don't know who's armed."
"An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject...."


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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:19:08 -0700
From: Eric Sneed
Subject: RE: FTE 80-96 - 93, 460 F-350 vs 94 F-250 turb diesel

Solid or IFS, it all depends on what you plan on using you rig for. If you
are going to rock crawl(full size trucks are not the best choice for this)
then go with the solid.I have been told and read that if you are looking to
do higher speed desert type stuff then the IFS is the way to go. The IFS
handles the up and down action better than the solid, where as the solid
handles side loads(impacts) better. For heavy duty towing the solid wins. If
your truck spends most of its time doing something other than heavy towing
or rock crawling then the IFS rides a lot nicer. My opinion is based on
experience and info, but is still my opinion.

Eric
89 F150 IFS 4x4 L6 4sp
85 F350 Solid 4x4 460 auto(new, at least to me)

-----Original Message-----
From: Blake Malkamaki [SMTP:blake little-mountain.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 3:22 PM
To: 80-96-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: RE: FTE 80-96 - 93, 460 F-350 vs 94 F-250 turb
diesel

>Hi,
>I would agree with Blake on the solid front axle however only if
>
>You do serious off road.
>You do a lot of snow plowing.
>
>If all you need it for is the occasional 4x4 to get through the mud
on the
>job site, or pull your boat out of the water then the IFS is fine,
and in
>fact a much nicer ride.
>

I have driven solid axle F-350s that rode better than IFS F-250s.
One big
advantage is that they start out taller and can use bigger tires
without
modifications.


Blake
Little Mountain
Concord, Ohio
Early Oil Well Historian http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://little-mountain.com/oilwell
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://little-mountain.com
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://little-mountain.com/blake
"Society is safest when the criminals don't know who's armed."
"An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject...."


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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:39:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Mike Persell"
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Engine Thermostats

On Tue, 19 Oct 1999 06:47:58 EDT, FLR150 aol.com wrote:
>It seems lately I have a differing opinion to a quite a few posts. Again I
>disagree. While I do not know much about the I-6 motors, I can tell you that
>MOST of the V-8 Ford motors favor a cooler than stock Tstat. The stock Tstat
>runs at 195-210 depending on the model year, application, and motor size.
>Most of the Ford V-8's will run much better and cooler with the 180 degree
>Tstat. Although, any temp below this will keep the EEC computers in their
>start up "closed loop" modes.

In every test I ran while working in oil company test labs, we found that engines would
fail the Sequence tests if they ran less than the factory temp thermostats. Ford small
blocks in particular have such a fast flame speed in the chambers that when they run
less than optimum temp they stick the rings bad.

In the 240 inch inline six we completely killed an engine at the equivalent of 55,000
miles running a 180 deg thermostat. In the hotter climates a hotter thermostat can
help the thermodynamics of the cooling process IF the radiator is clean and the block is
relatively free of contamination in the water jackets.

In my own 85 302, a factory recommended 195 deg thermostat means no condensation,
more power, smotther idle, less oil consumption and better fuel mileage.

In the words of the marketing suits, your mileage may vary.

Mike

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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 22:18:39 -0500
From: Allen Stearns
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Any Suggestions???

I have a problem that I'm hoping someone can help me with. My 89
Aerostar 3 liter has 12V applied at all times to the IAC Valve and it
won't start when cold due to the air bypassing the butterfly. From all
I have read in manuals it should be less than one volt until after the
engine starts. I opened the signal wire at the IAC and put a toggle
switch in line with it. I now turn the switch off, it starts normally,
and then I turn the switch on and leave it on. This works o.k. but I
would like to find out what controls the IAC valve and why there is 12V
on it all the time (even when the switch is on, before starting). Can
anyone offer any suggestions?
Thanks!!!
Al Stearns
alpau bellsouth.net

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Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 04:48:13 -0400
From: "Michael McCarthy"
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - Engine Thermostats

Mike, thanks for the info. I knew I wasn't dreaming. My truck does actually
run better with the 195 degree thermostat installed. We often malign the
engineers that design automobile engines but it is usually because we don't
understand what they have designed. It seems to me that it is easy to cross
that fine line between improving performance & deteriorating performance
when altering the original design. I always go for "stock" parts. If I can
get the thing running as it was designed to run then I can verify
performance and fix what needs to be fixed and leave the rest alone.

Michael McCarthy
Export, PA

- -----Original Message-----
From: Mike Persell
To: 80-96-list ford-trucks.com
Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 10:49 PM
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Engine Thermostats


>In every test I ran while working in oil company test labs, we found that
engines would
>fail the Sequence tests if they ran less than the factory temp thermostats.....


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