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Subject: 80-96-list-digest V3 #244
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80-96-list-digest Wednesday, September 1 1999 Volume 03 : Number 244



=======================================================================
Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1980-1996 Trucks and Vans
Visit our web site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/
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In this issue:

RE: FTE 80-96 - Stereo
FTE 80-96 - auto vs. manual
RE: FTE 80-96 - 4X4 Warn Hub Problem - new question
RE: FTE 80-96 - Stereo
FTE 80-96 - Squeak in '95 Bronco roof
RE: FTE 80-96 - auto vs. manual
FTE 80-96 - '89 F-150 Shop Manuals?
FTE 80-96 - Fuel Filter Change in PSD
RE: FTE 80-96 - Fuel Filter Change in PSD
Re: FTE 80-96 - '89 F-150 Shop Manuals?
Re: FTE 80-96 - auto vs. manual
RE: FTE 80-96 - '89 F-150 Shop Manuals?
FTE 80-96 - Power Steering Box Leak
RE: FTE 80-96 - Power Steering Box Leak
FTE 80-96 - 8.8" Is Bleeding...
FTE 80-96 - Bigger Tires?
Re: FTE 80-96 - auto vs. manual
RE: FTE 80-96 - Bigger Tires?
FTE 80-96 - Transfer Cases, which one?
Re: FTE 80-96 - Transfer Cases, which one?
Re: FTE 80-96 - Squeak in '95 Bronco roof
Re: FTE 80-96 - Bigger Tires?
Re: FTE 80-96 - Transfer Cases, which one?

=======================================================================

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:48:32 -0400
From: Brad DeFore
Subject: RE: FTE 80-96 - Stereo

Hi Al,
My 2cents say to buy a good decent AM/FM/CD player instead. I had the
AM/FM/Cassette in mine but it only had the front 2 speakers, so I snatched
it out and replaced with a Pioneer cd player. They make a wiring harness
that enables you to just plug in the new system without cutting the old
harness. I used this and when/if I sell the beast I can drop the old one
back in. Since then I've added 2 more 6x9 and a 100 watt amp. The amp fit
fine underneath the back seat (king cab) and I've made some boxes for the
6x9's to fit in that drop over the bars on the side of the seat (does
anyone know what these things were for? Their just 2 hoops that curl up and
back down on both sides of the back seat) and have an armrest on top. This
allows me to take them out to listen and they stay put when I put em back
in. Total cost was $350.00 so it's not a killer system but it jams and it
hasn't skipped yet even bouncing around the trails. That plastic ass. is to
hold the back up and secure it from bouncing, use it on the new one. Sorry
guys I think I put in 2dollars worth so see ya.


90 F150 4x4 351
Brad DeFore
BDeFore ComputerLogic.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: Allen Collins [SMTP:7X30WATERS PRODIGY.NET]
Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 10:15 PM
To: 80-96-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Stereo

Hello to the list,
Sent this message, but looks like it was lost. A friend gave me an Am/Fm
cassette deck out of a 90's model F-150. Only thing is it does not have
the
wiring harness or diagram for hooking it up. Anyone have a wiring diagram
for a F4TF-19B132-AC.. Not sure how it installs in the dash, it has a
plastic slide assembly on the back. I have a 1986 F-150 with a very sick
sparkojunk stereo. Would this cassette deck work or should I save my money
and buy a quality unit?

Thanks in advance
Al

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 05:54:30 PDT
From: "Scottie Schmidt"
Subject: FTE 80-96 - auto vs. manual

Hi,
Which would you guys reccamned for farming and plowing? Manual, or auto?

Thanks,
Scottie Schmidt JR.


______________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 09:30:36 -0400
From: Greg Carter
Subject: RE: FTE 80-96 - 4X4 Warn Hub Problem - new question

It all depends, is it really badly scored? You should be more concerned
with the area where the seal rides than the area where the bearing rides.
You want to make sure that the axle shaft is smooth (no rust pits, deep
scores etc..) where the spindle seal will contact it, otherwise water is
going to get in. If it is badly rusted in this area, removing the rust wont
help much since you will still end up with pitting. Also read the post I
forwarded from yesterday about packing the area with lots of grease. Most
of the axle shaft will look rough, only be concerned with the first bit.

Yes you can get them at salvage yards, but make sure you get a good one, no
pitting. You'll have to remove the complete axle shaft and then separate
the two halves at the u-joint. Replace the u-joint at the same time, with
greaseble ones, a good auto parts store should be able to get these.

Fun isn't it! What started out as a locking hub fix has turned into a
complete rebuild!
Bye.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ken Brayton [mailto:kwbrayton triax.com]
Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 9:44 PM
To: Ford 80-96-List-Digest
Subject: FTE 80-96 - 4X4 Warn Hub Problem - new question


So here's my question and I would appreciate receiving
answers to my email at kwbrayton triax.com, if you please:
Would it be prudent to replace the shorter right axle shaft
that the spindle rides on as well as the spindle assembly?
My guess is yes, as it appears to be scored some there too.
Is this a part that can be purchased used from a salvage
yard or is this something that should be purchase new?

One last note, I've notice a lot of rust in and around these
parts. Could water damage due to a failed oil seal be at the
root of all these problems?

Thanks again for everyone's help. I hope the list gets
working again REAL SOON NOW!

Ken Brayton
Albany, Oregon
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.triax.com/~brayton

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 09:38:35 -0400
From: Dave Heverin
Subject: RE: FTE 80-96 - Stereo

Al,

I must agree with Brad. Don't replace a bad stereo with "OK" stereo. I
have been looking at Crutchfield and they have AM/FM/CD units as low as
$149.00

BTW, 6x9 speakers will also fit in the side walls in the 87 thru 91
supercab. You have to cut some sheet metal, but the depth is available for
most 6x9's.

Dave
88' F150 Supercab


- -----Original Message-----
From: Brad DeFore [mailto:bdefore computerlogic.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 8:49 AM
To: '80-96-list ford-trucks.com'
Subject: RE: FTE 80-96 - Stereo


Hi Al,
My 2cents say to buy a good decent AM/FM/CD player instead. I had the
AM/FM/Cassette in mine but it only had the front 2 speakers, so I snatched
it out and replaced with a Pioneer cd player. They make a wiring harness
that enables you to just plug in the new system without cutting the old
harness. I used this and when/if I sell the beast I can drop the old one
back in. Since then I've added 2 more 6x9 and a 100 watt amp. The amp fit
fine underneath the back seat (king cab) and I've made some boxes for the
6x9's to fit in that drop over the bars on the side of the seat (does
anyone know what these things were for? Their just 2 hoops that curl up and
back down on both sides of the back seat) and have an armrest on top. This
allows me to take them out to listen and they stay put when I put em back
in. Total cost was $350.00 so it's not a killer system but it jams and it
hasn't skipped yet even bouncing around the trails. That plastic ass. is to
hold the back up and secure it from bouncing, use it on the new one. Sorry
guys I think I put in 2dollars worth so see ya.


90 F150 4x4 351
Brad DeFore
BDeFore ComputerLogic.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: Allen Collins [SMTP:7X30WATERS PRODIGY.NET]
Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 10:15 PM
To: 80-96-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Stereo

Hello to the list,
Sent this message, but looks like it was lost. A friend gave me an Am/Fm
cassette deck out of a 90's model F-150. Only thing is it does not have
the
wiring harness or diagram for hooking it up. Anyone have a wiring diagram
for a F4TF-19B132-AC.. Not sure how it installs in the dash, it has a
plastic slide assembly on the back. I have a 1986 F-150 with a very sick
sparkojunk stereo. Would this cassette deck work or should I save my money
and buy a quality unit?

Thanks in advance
Al

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 07:21:51 -0700
From: "Davies, Don"
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Squeak in '95 Bronco roof

I have a squeak in the top of my '95 Bronco right behind the drivers head in
>the roof - it sounds like it is coming from where the fiberglass meets the
>metal on the roof - does anyone know of a way to get rid of this ?
>don.davies techgrp.com

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:03:27 -0500
From: "Mike Persell"
Subject: RE: FTE 80-96 - auto vs. manual

1999 7:55 AM
Subject: FTE 80-96 - auto vs. manual


>Hi, Which would you guys reccamned for farming and
>plowing? Manual, or auto?

For low speed, high torque use always go with the manual
gearbox. Lower gearing available is one thing but the
automatic depends on the airflow through radiator for
cooling and the low speed work will kill it unless you
engineer some better cooling.

Mike


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:15:30 -0700
From: "Matt Hodel"
Subject: FTE 80-96 - '89 F-150 Shop Manuals?

Hey, I've been looking for a set of shop manuals for an 89 F-150 that I
recently bought.. However, Helms (Which seems to be the place everyone talks
about) doesn't have any in stock and doesn't know when (or if) they'll get
any more in...

Will any of the manuals for the years near mine work? Or would it be
worthwhile to go talk to the nearby Ford dealership (Don't want to, they
really pissed me off when I went truck shopping...)

Thanks...

Matt Hodel
Java/Asp Programmer, GeekBoy, and for this list....
89 F-150 4x4 300-i6 4spd Oil leak
iPONG Game Community
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.ipong.com


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:50:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Foye
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Fuel Filter Change in PSD

Hey everyone,

I have a later model PSD and I have found in the last
few weeks that the Fuel Filter idiot light will come
on during hard acceleration usually during a downshift
and climbing. Happens especially during towing. So,
I want to change it out. I've already drained it but,
I'm still experiencing the same problem.
Does anybody know how to change the fuel filter?
Proper procedure, I sure will make this a whole lot
less painful.

Thanks,

Chris
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 11:59:11 -0400
From: Dave Heverin
Subject: RE: FTE 80-96 - Fuel Filter Change in PSD

Chris,

Forgive my ignorance. What is a "PSD"?

Dave




- -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Foye [mailto:cfoye yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 11:50 AM
To: 80-96-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Fuel Filter Change in PSD


Hey everyone,

I have a later model PSD and I have found in the last
few weeks that the Fuel Filter idiot light will come
on during hard acceleration usually during a downshift
and climbing. Happens especially during towing. So,
I want to change it out. I've already drained it but,
I'm still experiencing the same problem.
Does anybody know how to change the fuel filter?
Proper procedure, I sure will make this a whole lot
less painful.

Thanks,

Chris
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 12:29:01 -0400
From: Mike Sloane
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - '89 F-150 Shop Manuals?

It wouldn't do you any good to go to your Ford dealer - they will just send you
to Helms. If you cannot find anything used, you might try to find an old Motor
manual, the Haynes books, or Chilton manuals. The Popular Mechanics (AllData)
CD-ROM is all but useless, and certainly not worth $30. I went though all of
this looking for manuals for my '83 F250 and '87 F350 (diesel). If you have a
good relationship with a local mechanic, he probably has a set of Motor manuals
dating back to the early '90s and will let you look at them or even make a
photocopy of the pages you need.

Mike

Matt Hodel wrote:

> Hey, I've been looking for a set of shop manuals for an 89 F-150 that I
> recently bought.. However, Helms (Which seems to be the place everyone talks
> about) doesn't have any in stock and doesn't know when (or if) they'll get
> any more in...
>
> Will any of the manuals for the years near mine work? Or would it be
> worthwhile to go talk to the nearby Ford dealership (Don't want to, they
> really pissed me off when I went truck shopping...)
>
> Thanks...
>
> Matt Hodel
> Java/Asp Programmer, GeekBoy, and for this list....
> 89 F-150 4x4 300-i6 4spd Oil leak
> iPONG Game Community
> http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.ipong.com
>
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- --

- ------------
Mike Sloane
Allamuchy NJ
(msloane att.net)



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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 12:31:37 -0400
From: Mike Sloane
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - auto vs. manual

Wrong list, Scottie. You should try the Ford/Ferguson tractor list at
.

Mike

Scottie Schmidt wrote:

> Hi,
> Which would you guys reccamned for farming and plowing? Manual, or auto?
>
> Thanks,
> Scottie Schmidt JR.
>
> ______________________________________________________
> > == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

- --

- ------------
Mike Sloane
Allamuchy NJ
(msloane att.net)



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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 13:40:59 -0400
From: Greg Carter
Subject: RE: FTE 80-96 - '89 F-150 Shop Manuals?

Or you library... I only use it in a last resort, but I usually always find
what I need, usually Chilton books. But I have to go to a large main
branch, the smaller closer branches don't have them...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Mike Sloane [mailto:msloane att.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 12:29 PM
To: 80-96-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - '89 F-150 Shop Manuals?


It wouldn't do you any good to go to your Ford dealer - they will just send
you
to Helms. If you cannot find anything used, you might try to find an old
Motor
manual, the Haynes books, or Chilton manuals. The Popular Mechanics
(AllData)
CD-ROM is all but useless, and certainly not worth $30. I went though all of
this looking for manuals for my '83 F250 and '87 F350 (diesel). If you have
a
good relationship with a local mechanic, he probably has a set of Motor
manuals
dating back to the early '90s and will let you look at them or even make a
photocopy of the pages you need.
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:12:02 -0400
From: "Mark Salvetti"
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Power Steering Box Leak

Hi everyone. I have a 1986 F150 2WD. I came out to the truck today to find
PS fluid leaking from the shaft that the Pitman arm is connected to. Nice
big puddle, so I'm going to have to get this fixed right away.

I only have a Haynes, but removal of the power steering box seems pretty
straightforward. Looks like I'll need a puller to remove the Pitman arm.
Do I also need to remove the tie rod from the other end of the Pitman? Am I
looking at buying a whole rebuilt box, or is there a seal in there that I
can replace?

Any R&R or "been there done that" advice greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Mark Salvetti
1986 F-150 2WD

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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:47:04 -0400
From: Greg Carter
Subject: RE: FTE 80-96 - Power Steering Box Leak

You can buy a seal kit for 20 bucks or so.

You'll have to separate the tierod from the pitman arm. Then take the
pitman arm off the box. You can 'loan' the pitman arm puller at some
autoparts stores (Canadian Tire in Canada).

You have to get the seal out of the box! You can either use a sheet metal
screw (self tapping) and screw it in a bit then sort of pry on it, or use
the messy but works method. With the steering box in the truck and lines
still hooked up (with pitman arm removed) start the truck, turn the wheel
until you hit the stops, then hold it there. The pressure will blow out the
seal. I used this method, it is messy because you can't really predict
where the fluid with shot out from...

The nut that holds the arm on is large, and is on with about 250-400 ft-lbs,
so a 3/4" drive socket set helps. If you don't have the puller or the
correct socket:

I first took mine out with the arm attached, drove over to the ford dealer,
had them impact the arm off (10 bucks), drove home, hooked it back up and
blew out the seal. Removed it again, and put in the new seal in. However I
had a hard time getting the seal in, you will need a pipe about the same
size as the seal that will fit over the shaft so you can drive the new seal
in correctly. Don't bother trying to tap it in with a screw driver or
similar, I tried and wrecked one seal...

Having a friend handy to help put the unit back in is handy, cause you have
to line up the steering shaft at the same time.

You can buy rebuilt units for 300 CND (I think I remember people in the US
saying around 150 US), a lot less hassle but more money.
Bye.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Mark Salvetti [mailto:msalvetti mediaone.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 5:12 PM
To: Ford Trucks 80-96
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Power Steering Box Leak


Hi everyone. I have a 1986 F150 2WD. I came out to the truck today to find
PS fluid leaking from the shaft that the Pitman arm is connected to. Nice
big puddle, so I'm going to have to get this fixed right away.

I only have a Haynes, but removal of the power steering box seems pretty
straightforward. Looks like I'll need a puller to remove the Pitman arm.
Do I also need to remove the tie rod from the other end of the Pitman? Am I
looking at buying a whole rebuilt box, or is there a seal in there that I
can replace?

Any R&R or "been there done that" advice greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Mark Salvetti
1986 F-150 2WD

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:08:51 -0500
From: Brent McNabb
Subject: FTE 80-96 - 8.8" Is Bleeding...

Admittedly, I'm not very good at making a silicone sealant bead, but I
thought I did a good job this time. I've recently changed out the
bearings and seals in my '86 F-150 with a 8.8" rear end. My problem
is, after the axle warms up, it starts leaking gear oil, from the
cover.

My questions are, what kind of silicone sealer is best? I've been
using Permatex Ultra Blue in a 1/8" bead. My Haynes manual doesn't
give a bead size, nor an aftermarket sealer suggestion, just a Ford
part number. I despise making sealant beads, is there any kind of
sealant that you just wipe on?

Also, I refilled the axle with 80w140 gear oil, since once again, my
Haynes manual specified no specific weight, just a GL number to look
for. It is GL-5 rated, but what is the recommended weight?



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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:23:30 -0400
From: "Perkins, James"
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Bigger Tires?

I am about to start driving my truck to work 50 miles roundtrip every day
and am thinking about trying to increase my gas mileage however I can. It
seems to me that the cheapest and easiest way to do that would be to fit a
set of oversize tires to effectively lower my axle ratio.

I have pencilled out some numbers and am thinking that by going from the
stock P235/75's to 32x11.50 LT's I could lower my effective axle ratio and
RPMs by a little under 10%. Assuming that this would also increase my
mileage by 10%, that would seem to be translate into enough real dollars to
make it worth the effort, assuming I don't have any real cost to make the
change since I already need new tires. Since I am running a 351 with a 3.55
rear end and will be travelling empty, I have to believe that my truck will
still be very driveable with this change.

My question is whether anyone else has done something similar and can tell
me:

1. Will 32x11.50 LT's easily fit on my truck without modifications? How
about 33x12.50's?

2. Can the speedo be corrected by a simply gear change? If so, is it easily
reversible so I can pull off the tires if I want to tow something heavy?

3. Will I actually get a fuel mileage increase that will make it worth the
effort? I recognize that it would take awhile to pay for the tires to do
this, but since I need tires anyway it doesn't seem like it will really cost
me too much to make the change.

4. Will this change cause any driveability or other problems/differences I
haven't thought about?

Thanks for your help.

Jim Perkins
'91 F150 4X4 SC
Spokane, WA

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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:21:00 -0500
From: Blake Malkamaki
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - auto vs. manual

>Hi,
> Which would you guys reccamned for farming and plowing? Manual, or auto?
>

Do you mean plowing snow? Or plowing a field?


Blake
Little Mountain
Concord, Ohio
Early Oil Well Historian http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://little-mountain.com/oilwell
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://little-mountain.com
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://little-mountain.com/blake
"Society is safest when the criminals don't know who's armed."
"An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject...."


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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:43:30 -0700
From: "McMahon, Todd R."
Subject: RE: FTE 80-96 - Bigger Tires?

I would think that bigger tires would mean a larger load on the engine (not
to mention the additional weight), which would counter any expected fuel
economy gains.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Perkins, James [mailto:James.Perkins wang.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 3:24 PM
To: '80-96-list ford-trucks.com'
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Bigger Tires?


I am about to start driving my truck to work 50 miles roundtrip every day
and am thinking about trying to increase my gas mileage however I can. It
seems to me that the cheapest and easiest way to do that would be to fit a
set of oversize tires to effectively lower my axle ratio.

I have pencilled out some numbers and am thinking that by going from the
stock P235/75's to 32x11.50 LT's I could lower my effective axle ratio and
RPMs by a little under 10%. Assuming that this would also increase my
mileage by 10%, that would seem to be translate into enough real dollars to
make it worth the effort, assuming I don't have any real cost to make the
change since I already need new tires. Since I am running a 351 with a 3.55
rear end and will be travelling empty, I have to believe that my truck will
still be very driveable with this change.

My question is whether anyone else has done something similar and can tell
me:

1. Will 32x11.50 LT's easily fit on my truck without modifications? How
about 33x12.50's?

2. Can the speedo be corrected by a simply gear change? If so, is it easily
reversible so I can pull off the tires if I want to tow something heavy?

3. Will I actually get a fuel mileage increase that will make it worth the
effort? I recognize that it would take awhile to pay for the tires to do
this, but since I need tires anyway it doesn't seem like it will really cost
me too much to make the change.

4. Will this change cause any driveability or other problems/differences I
haven't thought about?

Thanks for your help.

Jim Perkins
'91 F150 4X4 SC
Spokane, WA

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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:56:06 -0400
From: Greg Carter
Subject: FTE 80-96 - Transfer Cases, which one?

HI,

I have a 91 F-250 4x4, 5.0L, Mazda Tranny. How do I figure out which
transfer case I have?
Thanks.
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:50:27 -0700
From: Bob Kennedy
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - Transfer Cases, which one?

Smooth case, shifter on the floor NP series, ribbed case BW series.

Bob


Greg Carter wrote:

> HI,
>
> I have a 91 F-250 4x4, 5.0L, Mazda Tranny. How do I figure out which
> transfer case I have?
> Thanks.
> == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 20:46:44 EDT
From: LGRanch aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - Squeak in '95 Bronco roof

Remove the strip of plastic molding on the inside of the truck where the
metal meets the fiberglass roof. There will be bolts along the back of the
joint. Tighten these abit until the squeak stops. Do not over tighten these.
If you tighten these too much you will bow the roof metal in.
== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:07:01 -0400
From: "Doug ( DJ Fire )"
Subject: Re: FTE 80-96 - Bigger Tires?

The bad things about a larger tire is that it is heavier than a stock
tire, therefore it requires more energy to get the vehicle up to speed. Now
once the vehicle is up to speed, then the extra weight will help very
little, but you will increase your speed to engine rpm ratio.

As far as the speedometer goes, no their is not any EASY way to fix it.
But all FORD owners know that there are no EASY things when it comes to a
Ford.

Doug - Owner of Jambalance ( 86 F-350 6.9 Liter Diesel )
Firefitr cxp.com
- -----Original Message-----
From: Perkins, James
To: '80-96-list ....


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