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Subject: 61-79-list Digest V2001 #52
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------------------------------------
61-79-list Digest Sat, 17 Feb 2001 Volume: 2001  Issue: 052

In This Issue:
Re: Torsens....
Re: Cold timing, was: Re: 390 intake
The mechanic said WHAT?!
Re: Timing my motor - need advice
Re: Timing my motor - need advice
Re: 240/300 engine removal & work stand questions
203 vs 205
Re: The mechanic said WHAT?!
Cam timing
Re: fuel sending unit
Re: Timing my motor - need advice
Re: The mechanic said WHAT?!
Re: 203 to 205???
Re: Wrong Offy & 351W
Re: The mechanic said WHAT?!
Timing alignment
Timing alignment
Static timing
ticking lifter
Brake lines
ALERT//RIPPED OFF
Re: ALERT//RIPPED OFF
Re: Timing my motor - need advice
Re: setting valves on 460
360

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "GaryBBB" <gpeters3 lni.net>
Subject: Re: Torsens....
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:49:54 -0800


If the pictures I studied are an accurate depiction of the design then when
the free wheel reaches the ratio of turns to the non-moving wheel the
non-moving wheel "Has" to turn and actually should be turning the whole time
but at a slower rate than the spinning wheel by the amount of the ratio.  If
it's 2:1 neither wheel should turn less than 1/2 turn for each turn of the
other.  Ad packages don't always tell the whole story though and the proof
is in the puddin as they say.  I can only relate the Theoreticaly expected
results based on the design.

If this story is saying that no matter how long he kept power to it, one
wheel would spin and the other not then I am not understanding this system
correctly:-)  If OTOH he could not move because the good wheel would also
spin from lack of help from the other one then we have a whole nother smoke
:-)  The best test of a locker I've seen is a ditch where two tires are
buried in deep, wet snow (perfect traction) and the other two are sitting on
an ice covered paved road.  If it will walk out of that then you have some
kind of locking going on but if not then they are not doing you any good.
My understanding is that the Torsen's will pull you out in this case as will
friction lockers with a little brake application.  Torsen's should not
require any brake intervention or I am not understanding the design (once
again:-))

--
Happily Retired (but broke)
Michigan Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
--

> What originally prompted the discussion was a Audi driver got
> stuck on his
> driveway and wanted to know what to do go get over the area where
> opposite
> wheels on the front and rear axles would go airborne.  The quick answer
> which I dispensed was to pull up on the e-brake.  This did in
> fact work, so
> that may be how some people think a Torsen can lock up totally.


------------------------------

From: "GaryBBB" <gpeters3 lni.net>
Subject: Re: Cold timing, was: Re: 390 intake
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:58:26 -0800


On dura spark systems you can static time the dizzy by lining up the
"Reluctor" with the center of the pickup coil with the (properly aligned)
damper on the timing mark you want it to run at.  This gets you closer than
3 degrees, every time :-)  Typically I don't even need to put a light on it
when I do this because I know it's right :-) (assuming the damper is in good
shape of course)  With points I turn on the ignition as you say and rotate
the dizzy back and forth until I get the points just dwelling at the point
of arcing and this also gets it spot on.  As you say though you should be
able to get well within 3 degrees even if you don't do a very good job of
either of these :-)

--
Happily Retired (but broke)
Michigan Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
--

> your shaft) to turn the shaft a little, install dist.. rotate it opposite
> direction of normal till the rotor is well before the cap
> terminal of the #
> 1 plug. Turn on the ign, rotate the dist just till the number one
> plug fires
> (which you have out of the motor connected to the plug wire and cap and in
> plain view) at this point you should be within 3 deg of what you will set
> timing at with engine running. Even if your not very careful at this
> procedure, you will get it close enough to get the motor to start.


------------------------------

From: "Stephen Brown" <snoopy1 ford-trucks.net>
Subject: The mechanic said WHAT?!
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 05:03:35 -0800

Hey Everyone,

My wife took our Ranger to a local repair shop on Friday to get it lubed
and get a price on a tune-up. This guy told my wife things that would make
a "real" mechanic's hair stand on end!
First of all, I told her that I wanted Castrol 20-50 put in it (I know, I've been
told in cold weather it's better to run a lighter viscosity, but its really not all that
cold here) But this guy told her that she needed 10-40 wt. because "in these
hotter running, high revving engines , you need a lighter oil to keep the engine
cool" and that "the 20-50 wt. would become as thin as the 10-40 in a short time
anyway"
Then he checked the tranny oil & he told my wife "It looks like someone screwed
up and put ATF in your tranny instead of gear oil you should have this changed
right away!" Luckily for me, my wife knew I just filled it with Mercon/Dextron3 ATF
(like the book calls for) When I replaced the clutch 2 months ago.....she declined
his offer to change the fluid, even though he warned her "It'll ruin your seals if you
leave it in".
Now here's the clincher,  My wife noticed a nice late 60's ford truck in the parking-
lot and asked if it was his, he said yes, so she started telling him about my 71 F250
and my plans to build my 360 into a 390.
He told her "Oh that's a bad idea, if you bore a 360 out to a 390 the cylinder walls
will be too thin,and they would end up cracking from heat & stress over time".

WHAT?!?!?!

My wife said there was an "ASE Certified" sticker on the door & plaque on the wall, but
I figured he must have got that by sending $5.00 and three proofs of purchases from
Lucky Charms cereal.......;-)
Now in all fairness I didn't see this "mechanic " so maybe it was just one of his helpers
or something, but, just in case I told my wife not to ever go there again, or I would make
her drive our 85 Mazda 626(a.k.a. The Turd) from now on....... ;-)

Stephen Brown

71' F250   "Baby"
68' F100  (project)
94' Ranger Supercab 4.0



------------------------------

From: "John LaGrone" <jlagrone ford-trucks.com>
Subject: Re: Timing my motor - need advice
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:01:16 -0600


> Every second turn of the crank will also turn the cam in such a way that
the
> dots pass each other in the center (assuming it it has the correct
> relationship in the first place of course :-)) so you turn the crank up
and
> the cam down so they line up.

Thanks, Gary. The old gray cells needed some help.

--John LaGrone
jlagrone ford-trucks.com
See Henry at: http://www.ford-trucks.com/jlagrone/henry.home.htm


------------------------------

From: draco pacifier.com
Subject: Re: Timing my motor - need advice
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 06:57:26 -0800 (PST)


Gary wrote:
> If you pull the plugs and the electrodes are burned off you better
> disassemble the engine and start over :-(  Normally you can see spark knock
> in the form of shiny metal spots on the porcelain which will stay there even
> after blasting lighty if severe enough.  I've seen them so bad they looked
> like fools gold with little specs all over them.  The metal will actually
> etch the porcelain when the condition is severe.

Good, I was hoping there might be some evidence like this so I can be
sure it is OK with this much advance.  I am curious though.  Do you
know what causes these metal spots to form?  Is it taking metal from
one place, the electrodes maybe, and depositing it in another?  I
assume the insulator is cooler so it would deposit there.

BTW, I decided to make the jump back into live mode.  I used to download
the digests and read them offline, but it is definitely better to be in
real time.


Mark in Southwest Washington
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.pacifier.com/~draco/Truck.html
--
'74 F-100 Ranger XLT 4X4


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:42:53 -0800
From: Don Haring <haring fedora.net>
Subject: Re: 240/300 engine removal & work stand questions


Ben <bluesky6 ix.netcom.com> asked about removing a 300.

I removed the 240 from my early Club Wagon, so the actually removal is much
different than it would be for a pickup, but the lifting should be the
same. You don't need that special hook. I bought a heavy chain and some
grade-8 bolts and large washers. If I remember correctly, I removed one of
the top rear exhaust manifold bolts, used that hole, and then used one of
the accessory bracket holes on the *opposite* side of the engine, in the
front. Since the chain crosses from front to back and left to right, it
will balance and hang straight. The crane hook will not fit into the inside
of the chain, so you just slide one link into the hook. This is difficult
to describe in words, but easy to see and do.

Since I have never removed an engine from a pickup, I'm not sure if you
need to angle the engine upward to clear everything. Using the chain, you
don't get any tilt movement, so it might be necessary to remove the hood.
Not sure.

I used a standard 4-leg engine stand and attached the engine after I
removed the bellhousing and clutch. Use Grade-8 7/16" bolts and have a
selection of different lengths and large washers to fit it correctly.

This was the first engine I've removed, and the list members were kind
enough to get me pointed in the right direction when I had questions. The
replacement engine hasn't gone in yet because I hernaited a disc in my back
about a month ago and it's still healing. :(

-don

--
Don Haring, Jr., Philadelphia, PA, Keystone Chapter FCA
61 Falcon Futura, 66 Falcon Club Wagon and classic scooters



------------------------------

From: "Azie L. Magnusson" <maggie11 HiWAAY.net>
Subject: 203 vs 205
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:20:30 -0600

Wayne G. writes:  >>The NP205 cast iron cases are different
between "Married" and "Divorced" setups..<<

Just blew my theory out the window..

Azie Magnusson
Ardmore, Al.


------------------------------

From: JUMPINFORD aol.com
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:25:55 EST
Subject: Re: The mechanic said WHAT?!


A few things come to mind while reading this.  Does this gentleman still
require mommy to tie his shoes?  Is this just another case of a GM certified
mechanic trying to switch over?  So many questions, but only one real good
answer.  This guy shouldnt even be bagging your groceries, much less workin
on a car.  You may wanna talk to the fellas manager, because its mistakes
like he was plannin on making that could cost that store some serious $$$.
If nuthin else, you can play with him.  Take him the Ranger and tell him you
need a carb tune up.  Take him your old ford and tell him you think the O2
sensor might be bad......  Might be more fun than a trip to disney land.

Darrell & Tweety

------------------------------

From: "Azie L. Magnusson" <maggie11 HiWAAY.net>
Subject: Cam timing
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:27:08 -0600

Mark of AW Wash writes:  >>.  I am not sure if he meant this
actually happened, or may have happened<<

I'm not sire what Gary meant either, but I do know it did happen..

Not could have, but did..

Azie Magnusson
Ardmore, Al.


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 09:50:56 -0600
From: Stu Varner <nukegm ford-trucks.com>
Subject: Re: fuel sending unit


At 07:55 AM 2/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>----------------------------------------------------------
>Support FTE - Check out our store:
>http://www.motorhaven.com/
>----------------------------------------------------------
>
>does anyone know if a fuel sending unit part no C8TF-9275-B will fit in a
1971 F-100 custom (in cab tank)?
>

The correct part number for this unit should be a D7TZ-9275-G - I just
bought one the other day from my local
Ford dealer, the only current manufacturer of the sending units.  They are
pricey but thankfully still available.

Good Luck!

Stu
Nuke GM!

------------------------------

From: "GaryBBB" <gpeters3 lni.net>
Subject: Re: Timing my motor - need advice
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:23:15 -0800


Well, what it it that detonation does that's not good for the engine?
Besides hammering the bearings out that is?  Detonation produces more heat
in localized areas of the combustion chamber than the materials are designed
to handle so some of it gets litterally melted off and floats around in the
chamber until it finds a place to land.  It actually gets deposited on
everything but the only place you can "Detect" it is on the porcelain of the
plugs without actually taking the heads off.  The plugs will get so hot that
the metal easily etches into the porcelain but if you take the head off and
carefully inspect the piston top and combustion chamber you will find
evidence of melted material there too.  Without removing the heads, the
plugs are the best way to determine it though :-)

The first areas that will heat up this much are the edges of the piston top
or top ring land and the plug electrodes since these are the thinnest areas
in the combustion chamber.  The next thinnest spot is the edges of the
exhaust valves which will get red hot under prolonged detonation.  As I said
though, it is possible to have detonation that is doing damage without
hearing it under certain conditions so checking the porcelain on the plugs
is the best insurance you have.  If you have a plug cleaner (blaster) stick
them in there for just a second to get the black off so you can see and then
inspect them.  If you blast them too much you may remove most of the
evidence.

--
Happily Retired (but broke)
Michigan Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
--

> Good, I was hoping there might be some evidence like this so I can be
> sure it is OK with this much advance.  I am curious though.  Do you
> know what causes these metal spots to form?  Is it taking metal from
> one place, the electrodes maybe, and depositing it in another?  I
> assume the insulator is cooler so it would deposit there.


------------------------------

From: "GaryBBB" <gpeters3 lni.net>
Subject: Re: The mechanic said WHAT?!
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:40:49 -0800


I've been telling you guys that the people who are in the classes to become
Master Mechanics are either there because someone told them that we will
always need mechanics and that they will always be in demand or there was a
lot of money in it or they fixed something once and it worked so they
thought they are good mechanics or something like that.  I'm sorry to keep
harping on this but not every one is cut out to be a mechanic and in the
classes I took if there were 2 out of a class of 20 that had any hope of
becoming a "Good" one I would be surprised.  It takes more than just
intellegence to be a good mechanic.  It requires that "Thing" that makes
watching a project come together Exciting.  That "Thing" that allows you to
forsee what needs to be done and that "Thing" that allows you to memorize
virtually every shred of mechanical trivia that you come in contact with.
If you don't meet these criteria you should be looking somewhere else to
make your living or you will struggle the rest of your life just to survive,
much less make a good living at it.  Without the "Thing" your intelligence
will only take you so far......not far enough......

You can enjoy working on your truck without being a good mechanic and you
can do a nice job on it too if you take your time and ask lots of questions
so don't be put off just because you are not a "Real" mechanic.  Just slow
down, ask questions and enjoy it but don't quit your day job as they say :-)

--
Happily Retired (but broke)
Michigan Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
--

> My wife said there was an "ASE Certified" sticker on the door &
> plaque on the wall, but
> I figured he must have got that by sending $5.00 and three proofs
> of purchases from
> Lucky Charms cereal.......;-)


------------------------------

From: "Matt" <draygo pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: 203 to 205???
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 13:22:14 -0800

That thought has crossed my mind, but after helping a friend replace the
chain in his, I'm not so sure that is what I want in mine. I guess I'm just
being too picky. Like I said before, I don't hot rod the truck anymore, and
I don't plan on doing it in the future, so why worry? So how do you like
yours? Who did it? Where can I get one?

Matt

"Accomplishing the impossible only means the boss will add it to your
regular duties."

----- Original Message -----
From: "wish" <wish ford-trucks.net>

> This may sound too easy, but have you considered the part time kits
available
> for the 203 ?
>
> That's what I've got, and I believe Mark does too ... granted its not as
cool
> as a 205, but its a lot less work (especially when you have someone else
do
> it :)
>




------------------------------

From: Aeroape82 aol.com
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:55:18 EST
Subject: Re: Wrong Offy & 351W

In a message dated 2/16/01 10:46:02 PM Central Standard Time,
bluesky6 ix.netcom.com writes:


> I've been looking at 351W engines. A 351W rebuilt long block is about
> the same price as the rebuilt 300 I was looking at. Has anyone done a
> 240/300 to 351W swap on a '67-'72 truck?
>
>

A 300 inline to a 351W I did in my 78 F150 a few yrs. ago had to move the
eng. to frame mts. back and redsign the clutch brackets. That was all that
was needed on the 78.

Glenn  NY
78 F250 (talk about projects and headaches)



------------------------------

From: Aeroape82 aol.com
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 18:14:54 EST
Subject: Re: The mechanic said WHAT?!

Some people have no business working in a garage.  Much less being around
vehicles where they might be able to create problems.  Luckily your wife knew
better.

Glenn  NY
78 F250  (talk about projects and headaches)



------------------------------

From: "Azie L. Magnusson" <maggie11 HiWAAY.net>
Subject: Timing alignment
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:19:31 -0600

John LaG. writes:  >>The crank makes two revs for the cam's one.

Correct - exactly two to one..


How do the dots on the gears line up? Doesn't the dot on the
crank go up and the cam down?<<

Correct again..  Gear up - cam down..  Pointing at each other..

If you draw a string across them and through the middle of the
bolts holding them on, theoretically the string will cover the
alignment dots.  All V8's of modern day that I am familiar with
align this way..  I seem to remember the Y blocks having the
marks right angles to vertical and some # of chain links
between them, but as I said - Modern V8's.

Azie Magnusson
Ardmore, Al.


------------------------------

From: "Azie L. Magnusson" <maggie11 HiWAAY.net>
Subject: Timing alignment
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:22:28 -0600

Gary writes:  >>With the timing cover off you can line up the dots on the sprockets
>and get it very close.  When the dots are exactly lined up it is always at
>TDC AFAIK.<<

Unless of course you have one of those "retarded" crank sprokets,
then you are not on TDC unless you are using the keyway and not
the alignment dot.


Azie Magnusson
Ardmore, Al.


------------------------------

From: "Azie L. Magnusson" <maggie11 HiWAAY.net>
Subject: Static timing
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:30:43 -0600

Eric M. writes:  >>rotate motor to TDC, then continue to rotate till timing marks line up to
what you would adjust the static timing to if it were running, vac plugged,
proper RPM,,,say 12 deg BTDC.  Now stab the dist, now take it out because
you didn't get the dist gear on the correct tooth and the rotor is not
pointing to where you want it to, drop it in again, now take it out,, darn
oil pump shaft is not lined up correctly and will not allow the dist to
completely drop down, use an extension and 5/16 socket (or correct size for
your shaft) to turn the shaft a little, install dist.. rotate it opposite
direction of normal till the rotor is well before the cap terminal of the #
1 plug. Turn on the ign, rotate the dist just till the number one plug fires
(which you have out of the motor connected to the plug wire and cap and in
plain view) at this point you should be within 3 deg of what you will set
timing at with engine running. Even if your not very careful at this
procedure, you will get it close enough to get the motor to start.<<

My Dad taught me this trick when I was 14 or so and that was about 50
years ago.  I still use it also and never failed me. Ain't old teachers great..

Azie Magnusson
Ardmore, Al.


------------------------------

From: "Azie L. Magnusson" <maggie11 HiWAAY.net>
Subject: ticking lifter
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:37:03 -0600

Darrell (and Tweety) writes:  >>, but before I do
that I am wondering how much Marvel Oil to add to an oil change to see if
that clears it up.  And if I need to change the oil right afterward, or if I
can leave it in there for a lil while.  When I fire it again Im going to pour
ATF down the carb to make sure the valves clean up and stay unstuck.  Any
advice is greatly appreciated.<<

I've had very good luck with adding a quart of ATF to the crankcase and
running it for a while.  Don't dog it or anything while it is in there, but it
is very good for removing tarnish/varnish etc.


Azie Magnusson
Ardmore, Al.


------------------------------

From: "Jason and Kathy" <kendrick mddc.com>
Subject: Brake lines
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 18:51:35 -0600


My brake problem involves a brake line on my Tempo, not one of my trucks, so
this may be off topic. A rear brake line has rusted through just a couple
inches before the fitting. Is it wise to splice the line with a compression
fitting, or should I just shorten the line, cut and re-flare?
Thanks,

Jason Kendrick
kendrick mddc.com


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:17:06 -0500
From: Joe <shoman p3.net>
Subject: ALERT//RIPPED OFF


Groups
please do not deal with a TIMMY BOYD from Las Vegas, NV
he sent me wrong parts and will not refund the money.
its a lesson learned.
Joe


------------------------------

From: JUMPINFORD aol.com
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:38:16 EST
Subject: Re: ALERT//RIPPED OFF


What exactly is wrong about the parts?  How much money is involved?  Im in
vegas, and Id be happy to pay him a visit for you, Just give me a few
details.  I can be very persuasive  :)

Darrell & Tweety

------------------------------

From: "Hogan, Tom (Portland)" <Tom.Hogan kla-tencor.com>
Subject: Re: Timing my motor - need advice
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:59:27 -0800


>
> Gary wrote:
> Normally you can see spark knock
> > in the form of shiny metal spots on the porcelain which
> will stay there even
> > after blasting lighty if severe enough.
<snip>

Mark wrote:
> Good, I was hoping there might be some evidence like this so I can be
> sure it is OK with this much advance.  I am curious though.  Do you
> know what causes these metal spots to form?  Is it taking metal from
> one place, the electrodes maybe, and depositing it in another?  I
> assume the insulator is cooler so it would deposit there.
> <snip>
> Mark in Southwest Washington

Mark those little shiny flecks that Gary is talking about are pieces of your
PISTONS! That's one of the reasons engines don't last under detonation.
This also occurs if you use too much nitrous.  Melts the top of the pistons
and flecks of aluminum deposit on the plugs.

Tom H.

------------------------------

From: GMontgo930 aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 01:25:35 EST
Subject: Re: setting valves on 460

As for the valve spring replacement, here's a trick Ive read and heard about.
Maybe someone else can vouch for it's ease.
1. Remove the sparkplug for the cylinder your to be working on.
2. Back the piston 1/2 way or more down the cylinder
3. Feed in a length of rope (1-2 Ft) through the spark plug hole.
4. Turn the crank over until the piston compresses the rope against the
cylinder head and valves. DO what ever valve spring work you need, the rope
keeps the valves closed and in the head.
5. Remove the rope when done by backing the piston back down and pull on the
rope.

Now for the valve adjustment - All the engines Ive worked on are the positive
stop type with hydraulic lifters. Tighten the rocker nut and your done. The
lifter is what takes up the slack in the valve train. If you have solids then
their is a procedure to follow, but Ive never done it for the above stated
reason. Kinda sounds to me like you need to determine exactly what it is
you've got in there. Ive never been in a 460 either.

George M in Fl.


In a message dated 02/16/01 10:29:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
us5zahns earthlink.net writes:


> Hello all,
>   I am planning on changing the valve springs on my 460 soon.  The engine
> has been running rough and coughing when I accelerate and idle.  I have
> taken it to a mechanic who said he found a broken spring and replaced it.
> It still ran rough but not as bad so I took it back and he said he found
> another weak spring and replaced it.  It is a little better but still the
> same type of problem.  I was planing on replacing all the springs myself and
> was looking for a little help.  I have never done this before and want to do
> it with the heads still on.  Any suggestions or tips on doing this might
> save me some headaches later.
>   The other problem I have is how to adjust the valves after the springs are
> replaced.  I have read several manuals on this procedure and they are all
> different.  One says the nut should only tighten 3/4 of a turn after the
> push rod contacts the lifter.  Another says use feeler gauges to set in the
> closed position and adjust with shims under the rocker arms.  Another says
> just tighten the rocker nuts to 25 lbs and leave it.   HELP.
> thanks,
> FredZ





------------------------------

From: "Jeffrey Bennett" <jmb40 amexol.net>
Subject: 360
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 08:44:32 -0500

I'm changing out the intake on a 360. The distributor is loose, and pulls up slightly
but then hangs up. Is there a trick to getting them out? Shouldn't they just pull out ....


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