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61-79-list Digest Thu, 01 Feb 2001 Volume: 2001  Issue: 033

In This Issue:
1970 Van
Re: 460 lost oil pressure-John L.
Re: Coil grounding
Re: 460 lost oil pressure-where is the sender located?
Re: Engine won't stop (again)
Zip ties
Coil grounding
Coils and capacitors
right price for 77 f250?
Re: Coil grounding
Re: Coil grounding
390
Re: Coil grounding
Re: 390
Coils and stuff (was Engine won't stop (again)
Re: Zip ties
Re: Re Coil Grounding
Re: 390
Zip ties & Blood
Re: Zip ties & Blood
Re: Manual steering gearbox replacement
Re: Re Coil Grounding
Ford Solid State Ignition
Re: 460 Oil Capacity
Re: Re Coil Grounding
Re: 460 Oil Capacity
CONVENTIONAL COIL VOLTAGE
Re: Re Coil Grounding
Re: Engine won't start-update

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Randy Lazar" <randy burgess.com>
Subject: 1970 Van
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:53:33 -0800


Hey all, I'm new to the list and have a 1970 Econoline E200 Van, and
would like to know if anyone knows of any clubs for the early '70's
vans, also if anyone knows of a good parts source for these vans.

Thanks,
Randy



------------------------------

From: "Karl Streich" <fordlist hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: 460 lost oil pressure-John L.
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 14:52:58 -0800



> > My '77 460 lost oil pressure the other day, it started at about half of
> > normal oil pressure, 1/4 of the way up the scale, and over 10 minutes
>droped
> > to nothing, asside from the obvious insturment malfunction what might be
>the
> > culprit???
>
>Karl,
>
>Did the engine quit running or did you shut it off? Was it knocking after
>the gauge said no oil pressure? Have you recently changed the oil?
>
>If you kept driving and the engine didn't quit on you, you probably have a
>gauge circuit problem.


The motor didn't quit, it didn't make any unusual noise either, I made a
point to go straight home (not far away) and park it.  It did occour to me
that the oil may have been diluted with gasoline from a stuck open needle
valve problem in the past. Oil level was OK, I had just toped it off.

Thanks, Karl



>You may have a plugged oil filter or if you just changed the oil a
>defective
>oil filter or the wrong type or size. My mother-in-law had a Cadillac that
>kept triggering the oil pressure warning light. Turned out to be the wrong
>oil filter.
>
>Another possibility is water in the oil. Check your crank case level. If it
>is over full and you are low on coolant....blown head gasket or cracked
>engine component.
>
>--John LaGrone
>jlagrone ford-trucks.com
>See Henry at: http://www.ford-trucks.com/jlagrone/henry.home.htm
>
>=============================================================
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>Please remove this footer when replying.
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------------------------------

From: BRussAZ aol.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 17:55:05 EST
Subject: Re: Coil grounding


In a message dated 2/1/01 12:50:15 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jlagrone ford-trucks.com writes:

<< Electricity always needs a ground to complete the circuit and move.  >>

This is just to you and not the liST...but...
Actually...your statement is not correct either...you only need a difference
in potential, conductors with ample supply of free electrons and a closed
loop to cause current to flow..."ground" is one of the most misunderstood
terms in electrical and electronic circuits....its my area of expertise.


Bill


------------------------------

From: "Karl Streich" <fordlist hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: 460 lost oil pressure-where is the sender located?
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 15:02:43 -0800



I haven't done much work on this truck and wondered if someone could tell me
where the sender is located, I allready have a mechanical gauge on a flex
tube that I can use to check it.

Thanks, Karl
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 16:03:09 -0700
From: "Richard Currit" <RCURRI state.wy.us>
Subject: Re: Engine won't stop (again)

Ok, all this talk about flux and such has got my head hurting.  But here
is a question.  It has been my experience that a wider points gap will
give a better idle and low end grunt at the expense of top end, and that
a narrower gap will give better topend with worse idle and low end
grunt.  Why is that?  No, seriously.  Have others noted this or am I
hallucinating?

Oh, and here is all I know about coils;   Get your buddy to hold the
coil wire about 1/4 inch from the engine block to check for spark.  If
his head bounces off the bottom of the hood on the first crank your coil
is fine:-)

High Plains Richard
'72 F100, 300 I6

------------------------------

From: "Azie L. Magnusson" <maggie11 HiWAAY.net>
Subject: Zip ties
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 17:25:15 -0600

Jim I. writes:  >>Come on John, that's rediculous. I think Zip ties have *always*
been around. (-:
How could primitive man ever have evolved into decent mechanics
without zip ties? I'm sure they must have been one of the first
tools ever invented, but they were probably made of stone or bronze
or something. Personally, I can't even imagine life without them!
<<

It was called baleing wire, I believe.

Azie Magnusson
Ardmore, Al.


------------------------------

From: "Azie L. Magnusson" <maggie11 HiWAAY.net>
Subject: Coil grounding
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 17:28:30 -0600

Dave S. wriotes:  >>The secondary side is basically static electricity -- no ground is there
and no ground is needed.  Just like lightning.

I disagree..  Gotta have a complete circuit to get a spark.

Azie Magnusson
Ardmore, Al.


------------------------------

From: "rich" <richth exis.net>
Subject: Coils and capacitors
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 18:45:12 -0500



> No, that's how I remember it too.  Closing the points energizes the
> primary....opening them collapses the flux producing inductance in the
> secondary coil.  The capacitor is there to absorb "Battery" voltage while
> the points are open so they don't arc and has nothing to
> I may not know how the coil is grounded but I do know a few things :-)

Now doggonit, I knew I screwed up as soon as I hit the send button.  I said
shoot, it's getting late, I'll correct the errors tommorrow, I mean, I only
had the point opening, closing thing Backwards. <grin>  Flame me group, I
deserve it.  I found my Automotive Encylopedia from my school day's.  It has
a great description of the piont system with pictures even :)  It even shows
a cutaway view of a coil.  No capacitor installed but there is a "resistance
unit" installed at the bottom of the coil that is wired between the + input
and the - output.  See Gary, you did have to solder some wires in there.
This book has a whole chapter dedicated to standard ignitions.  Charts,
graphs of different voltages required to jump various plug gaps, coil output
voltage at differnt RPMs, advance curves, very detailed, you name it , It's
probably in here.  Sorry for the mixup.  I knew what I ment to say.

Rich


------------------------------

From: "Mudhog" <mudhog houston.rr.com>
Subject: right price for 77 f250?
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 17:44:06 -0600

I have the chance to purchase a this truck. The price sounds good, but I thought I'd ask yall first.

1977, F250, 2x4, swb, crewcab, 351 engine, oversize radiator
Exterior, excellent..no rust, one dent, all chrome intact
Interior: haven't seen it yet, but told its decent
milage: don't know yet, but assume over 100,000.
mechanically sound: no engine or trans prolems
Price: between $1500 and $1800

I will get a closer look next week.


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 15:45:53 -0800
From: Dennis Pearson <dpearson ctc.edu>
Subject: Re: Coil grounding




BRussAZ aol.com wrote:

...you only need a difference
> in potential, conductors with ample supply of free electrons and a closed
> loop to cause current to flow..."ground" is one of the most misunderstood
> terms in electrical and electronic circuits....its my area of expertise.
>
> Bill

A closed loop being someway for the current to complete the trip from
(+) (positive) to (-)(negative)?  I agree. That work "ground" for
negative is confusing...

--
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://counterculture.ws
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://ctc.edu/~dpearson/popcult.html
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 15:47:27 -0800
From: Dennis Pearson <dpearson ctc.edu>
Subject: Re: Coil grounding




"Azie L. Magnusson" wrote:
>

> Dave S. wriotes:  >>The secondary side is basically static electricity -- no ground is there
> and no ground is needed.  Just like lightning.
>
> I disagree..  Gotta have a complete circuit to get a spark.
>

So does lightning...
--
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://counterculture.ws
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://ctc.edu/~dpearson/popcult.html
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://home.att.net/~dlpearson/lyrics.htm

------------------------------

From: Fordman9901 webtv.net
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 18:57:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 390


will a 390 boltup to a  autotrans that came off a 351m ?


------------------------------

From: daves8 juno.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 17:02:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Coil grounding


You're right.  I misspoke about the ground -- the point is that the coil
secondary does NOT ground to the case or the block.

When the spark discharges, it goes to ground through the spark plug.  The
center electrode is hot, the top electrode grounds to the block through
the threads in the head.  So, yes, the circuit does have a ground.

The spark (in both cases of spark plugs and lightning) is created when
the electric charge goes to ground.  There is no other ground inside the
coil.


Dave Schoenberg
Arvada, Colorado

On Thu, 1 Feb 2001 17:28:30 -0600 "Azie L. Magnusson"
<maggie11 HiWAAY.net> writes:
> Dave S. wriotes:  >>The secondary side is basically static
> electricity -- no ground is there and no ground is needed.  Just like
lightning.
>
> I disagree..  Gotta have a complete circuit to get a spark.
>
> Azie Magnusson
> Ardmore, Al.
________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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------------------------------

From: "Bill Beyer" <bbeyer pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: 390
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:13:19 -0800

No...

/// Friends help you move...Real friends help you move bodies \\


----- Original Message -----
From: <Fordman9901 webtv.net>
To: <61-79-list ford-trucks.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 3:57 PM
Subject: [61-79-list] 390


>
> will a 390 boltup to a  autotrans that came off a 351m ?




------------------------------

From: luminous neteze.com
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 16:20:39 -0800
Subject: Coils and stuff (was Engine won't stop (again)


High Plains Richard wrote:
>Ok, all this talk about flux and such has got my head hurting.  But here
>is a question.  It has been my experience that a wider points gap will
>give a better idle and low end grunt at the expense of top end, and that
>a narrower gap will give better topend with worse idle and low end
>grunt.  Why is that?  No, seriously.  Have others noted this or am I
>hallucinating?

The ignition coil has an optimum charging time, that is for a given
current flow there is an optimum time that current should flow
in the primary to build the maximum magnetic field. (and produce
maximum spark energy at the secondary)
This charging time is set by the points dwell angle, which is
directly related to points gap. It is also a function of engine
RPM. For a given points dwell angle, the coil charging time decreases
as engine RPM increases, so the optimum coil charging time is really
only met over a very narrow RPM band. Above and below this RPM range
coil charge time is a compromise.

Making the points gap wider decreases the charging time, so it's
better optimized for low RPM use. (slower RPM = longer charging time)
A smaller gap increases charging time, which is better suited to
higher RPM.

The factory points gap/dwell angle setting is a compromise,
really only "correct" over some mid-RPM range with some
reduction in spark energy at higher or lower RPM's. Generally
this is not a problem, or even noticable unless the ignition
system is in marginal health, or engine moifications have
increased the required spark energy needed for reliable
combustion. Higher compression ratio is something that increases
spark energy requirements...

Anyway, the point is, you're probably not hallucinating.

>Oh, and here is all I know about coils;   Get your buddy to hold the
>coil wire about 1/4 inch from the engine block to check for spark.  If
>his head bounces off the bottom of the hood on the first crank your coil
>is fine:-)

If you're really buddies, you'll at least make sure he's not standing
under the center of the hood directly under the hood latch post.
That sucker really hurts when you whack the back of your head
into it...

 Ouch,

  Jim Imboden
  1970 F100, 240/6  T-18


 luminous neteze.com




------------------------------

From: luminous neteze.com
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 16:25:58 -0800
Subject: Re: Zip ties



>Jim I. writes:  >>Come on John, that's rediculous. I think Zip ties have
*always*
> been around. (-:
> How could primitive man ever have evolved into decent mechanics
> without zip ties? I'm sure they must have been one of the first
> tools ever invented, but they were probably made of stone or bronze
> or something. Personally, I can't even imagine life without them!

>It was called baleing wire, I believe.
>
>Azie Magnusson
>Ardmore, Al.

Oh yeah, I remember that stuff!  For some reason bailing wire
and I aren't on very friendly terms. About half the time I use
it I manage to shove a pointy end of it into my palm or under
a fingernail or something.
I agree it's useful stuff, but somehow I always manage to hurt
myself with it.
At least it keeps my tetanus shots current...

 Cheers,

  Jim Imboden

 luminous neteze.com




------------------------------

From: daves8 juno.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 17:28:42 -0700
Subject: Re: Re Coil Grounding


1) The coil primary circuit is simply an electromagnet.  When the points
are closed the coil is energized and creates a magnetic field.  When the
points open, the coil deenergizes and the magnetic field collapses.

2) The secondary circuit is simply an iron bar that the high-tension lead
from the coil to the distributor plugs into.  The magnetic field
collapses around this bar (Faraday's conductor) and generates an
electrical charge in the bar.

3) This electrical charge is then conducted from the bar, through the
coil wire to the distributor cap, then through the rotor to a particular
plug wire and spark plug.

4) This electrical charge then jumps the gap between the electrodes in
the plug, and goes to ground via the spark plug threads.

5) The condenser next to the points simply keeps the points from arcing
by providing a path of least resistance for the primary circuit.  Without
the condenser, primary voltage would jump the gap in the points just like
the secondary voltage jumps the spark plug gap. While your car may run
without the condensor, the points will burn up rapidly.

6) The secondary circuit grounds through the spark plugs only -- nowhere
else.  There is no ground through the case of the coil.  A continuity
check between the high-tension terminal and the case should show an open
circuit -- no continuity.

Enough of this thread, already.  This ain't rocket science.

Dave Schoenberg
Arvada, Colorado
________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

From: "Jason and Kathy" <kendrick mddc.com>
Subject: Re: 390
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 18:25:29 -0600



<Fordman9901 webtv.net> wrote:
will a 390 boltup to a  autotrans that came off a 351m ?

Nope. Fe's have a bellhousing that's unique to them. No other engines even
get close to that pattern.
Jason Kendrick


------------------------------

From: JUMPINFORD aol.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:50:04 EST
Subject: Zip ties & Blood


In a message dated 2/1/2001 4:25:44 PM Pacific Standard Time,
luminous neteze.com writes:

<< I agree it's useful stuff, but somehow I always manage to hurt
 myself with it.
 At least it keeps my tetanus shots current...
 >>

One thing I swear by, is if I didnt loose blood while fixing something, its
guarenteed to have to come apart again in 24 hrs.  If I loose a large amount
of blood (anything more than the common bandaid can hold back) Im home free
with no more probs.  But this has a bad side.  You must stop the bleeding
with whats on hand cuz if you stop to get stitches, your gonna have to open
up another wound to appease the gods.  BTW, the best knuckle bandage I ever
used was a clean paper towel, and 2 small zip ties, one on each side of the
knuckle just snug enough to hold it on, got me an award for most creative
bandage in tech school.  Oh and brake cleaner is an excellent antibacterial
wound cleaner.

Darrell & Tweety

------------------------------

From: "Garrett Nelson" <garrettnelson writeme.com>
Subject: Re: Zip ties & Blood
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:04:02 -0800

Brake cleaner? That hurts just thinking about it!


Garrett Nelson
www.1966ford.com


 ----- Original Message -----
 From: JUMPINFORD aol.com
 To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
 Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 4:50 PM
 Subject: [61-79-list] Zip ties & Blood


 ----------------------------------------------------------
 Support FTE - Check out our store:
 http://www.motorhaven.com/
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 In a message dated 2/1/2001 4:25:44 PM Pacific Standard Time,
 luminous neteze.com writes:

 << I agree it's useful stuff, but somehow I always manage to hurt
   myself with it.
   At least it keeps my tetanus shots current...
   >>

 One thing I swear by, is if I didnt loose blood while fixing something, its
 guarenteed to have to come apart again in 24 hrs.  If I loose a large amount
 of blood (anything more than the common bandaid can hold back) Im home free
 with no more probs.  But this has a bad side.  You must stop the bleeding
 with whats on hand cuz if you stop to get stitches, your gonna have to open
 up another wound to appease the gods.  BTW, the best knuckle bandage I ever
 used was a clean paper towel, and 2 small zip ties, one on each side of the
 knuckle just snug enough to hold it on, got me an award for most creative
 bandage in tech school.  Oh and brake cleaner is an excellent antibacterial
 wound cleaner.

 Darrell & Tweety
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 Please remove this footer when replying.



------------------------------

From: Ben <bluesky6 ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Manual steering gearbox replacement
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 17:22:48 -0800


Thanks for the responses.

I contacted the manufacturer of the gearbox, Cardone, and they said
that they only do power steering boxes. So the one I had was
definitely not manual steering.

Ben

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 18:37:29 -0800
From: Dennis Pearson <dpearson ctc.edu>
Subject: Re: Re Coil Grounding




daves8 juno.com wrote:

> Enough of this thread, already.  This ain't rocket science.
>

No, it is automotive electronics, and I, for one, have a much better
understanding of how something I just took for granted for 41 years (I
got my first car at a very early age) works.  I have this need to
understand how things work...It's a sickness...I don't know how I missed
the coil...

Coincidentally, I discovered my problem on my 351C is not the coil, but
simply cheesy wiring...Gotta do something about that...

--
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------------------------------

From: "rich" <richth exis.net>
Subject: Ford Solid State Ignition
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:00:03 -0500




Ok Azzie, this is right out of the book. :)   The "reluctor" as you called
it,  is refered to as a permanent magnet generator. Ask for that in a parts
store and see the look you will get from the parts monkey :) I quote: "In
operation the PMG sends alternating current to the module, with the current
changing from positive to negative each time one of the gear teeth on the
armature passes the permanent magnet in the coil. When a gear tooth is
exactly opposite the coil, there is zero voltage.  The electronic module
sences this and cuts off current to the coil.  This causes the magnetic
field surrounding the coil to collapse, and the high tension lead current
generated is directed to the cylinders by a conventional rotor."

Here is a comparison given:  SPARK PLUG VOLTAGE
                                                   Start
Run
                                                   10V                14V

                                                   200 rpm
800 rpm
                         Solid state        32,000                26,000
                         Conventional    26,000                25,000

This is how it <solid state> improves starting.  As a side note I again
quote the book:   " Begining in 1974, the Ford solid state ignition system
is installed on all 400 cu. in. V8 engines with 2 Bbl. carburetor, and all
460 cu. in. V8 engines with 4 Bbl. carburetor.  It also appears on some 200
cu. in. six cylinder engines equipped with california emission controls."
These are quotes from one of the books that I was trained with.  If it's
wrong, dont blame me :)  The book is refering to autos and not trucks as far
as the engines and years go.


Don't have a clue
> how that reluctor in the electronic units works, but the results are
great.
>
> Azie Magnusson

Gary wrote:

Ain't electricity fun?  Here's another place we
can argue some :-)

OK Gary, this is for you.  As for the electronic control module, the
electronic components inside consist of "The necessary resistors,
capacitors, transistors and diodes totaling 35 units."  Hmmm.  If it wasnt
for that hard substance that these "35 units" were incased in, It would
probably be a piece of cake to repair. :)  Anyone wanna know how the general
can get his HEI unit to supply 10 KV more voltage to his plugs than our
Duraspark units can to ours.....I guess reading is fundemental, I learned
something AGAIN. :)

Rich


------------------------------

From: WhtsUpDoc2 aol.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:52:53 EST
Subject: Re: 460 Oil Capacity

I've always put five quarts in my 460. It's the orginal engine in a '78
F-250. My oil plug is at the front of the engine but facing the rear. I have
heard of some 460's that require 6, but I haven't heard of 7.

Jason Warner
Yukon, OK
'89 F-350 Crew Cab 4x4 Diesel
'78 F-250 Custom 460, C6
'76 F-150 Ranger XLT
'55 F-600 Custom 292

> Also, what should the amount of oil be (quarts)?  I changed the oil with the
> idea that it should have 7 quarts.  However, while adding, I checked at 6,
> and it read too much.  I've never heard of a 6 (or less??) quart oil pan on
> a 460, but I may be wrong.  The plug is on the front side of the engine, not
> the back (make a difference?).  I'm not sure what 460 it is, as when I
> bought the truck (79 bronco) it already had been swapped in.  I do notice a
> slight chatter of the lifters.  Any ideas, or experience with such a reading
> being false?.. Should I just put in 7?
>
>





------------------------------

From: BRussAZ aol.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:07:34 EST
Subject: Re: Re Coil Grounding



People,
Here is a great website that usually will tell you more than you wish to
know...check it out.

http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.howstuffworks.com/ignition-system.htm

cheers,
Bill


------------------------------

From: JUMPINFORD aol.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:09:59 EST
Subject: Re: 460 Oil Capacity


My dads 88 Van 460 requires 7, my 74 460 requires 6

Darrell & Tweety

------------------------------

From: "rich" <richth exis.net>
Subject:  CONVENTIONAL COIL VOLTAGE
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:32:10 -0500


A couple of months ago I asked the list what the voltage applied to the +
side of the coil should be.  The question was asked because J. Hansens Muny
Pitt has a butchered wiring harness and I wasnt sure if the primary voltage
to the coil was correct.  I never received a definitive answer.  I just
found it.  While cranking the engine, full battery voltage is applied to the
coil due to the resistor wire being cut out of the circuit.  I knew this,
and for your info, anything less than 9.6 V at the coil while cranking the
engine means too much starter current draw, bad ot fully charged battery or
defective wiring, and probably something else I forgot :)   Anywhoo, the
book states " with the ignition ON, the voltage reading from the resistor
side of the coil to ground should read approximately 5 -7 V, unless other
specifications are available. < I take it as they mean the + side of the
coil>  Resistance of resistor as used on 12V systems is approximately 1.5
ohms"  This is info only for anyone having the problem Jeff and I had with
his truck  Have I redeamed myself yet for last nights mis speak ? :)

Rich


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:16:44 -0600
Subject: Re: Grounded coils
From: Brett L Habben <bhabben juno.com>


Folks,
I think the thing that is throwing people for a loop here is that a
traditional Kettering ignition coil is an autotransformer (if I remember
the term correctly).  It does not have a totally separate set of primary
and secondary windings.  The plus and minus terminals of the coil are the
two ends of the primary side windings.  One end of the secondary side is
the coil wire/plug wire/spark plug to ground.  The other end is attached
to the coil plus terminal, along with one end of the primary windings.
Think of it as one long set of windings with a tap close to one end.
The points close, current flows through the primary (tapped section)
building up the magnetic field, the points open, the field collapses,
forcing current from coil plus terminal (B+) through the secondary set of
windings out through the spark plug to ground. Nowhere are any of the
windings attached to the case.
After rereading this it's about as clear as mud.  Maybe somebody else can
rephrase this in 10 words or less and the clouds will part and everthing
will be crystal clear.
Adios,
Brett
<snip>
>The secondary coil has to have a complete circuit and this may be done
via
>the green wire on the coil, not sure.  Perhaps when you saturate the
primary
>coil there is no flow in the secondary til you cut the power via the
points
>or module but not sure how that would give the secondary the ground it
>needs.
><snip>
>Happily Retired (but broke)
>Michigan Pot Hole Jumping,
>78 Bronco Loving, Gary

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------------------------------

From: luminous neteze.com
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 20:08:24 -0800
Subject: Re: Re Coil Grounding


Dave wrote:
>1) The coil primary circuit is simply an electromagnet.  When the points
>are closed the coil is energized and creates a magnetic field.  When the
>points open, the coil deenergizes and the magnetic field collapses.

This is quite true.

>2) The secondary circuit is simply an iron bar that the high-tension lead
>from the coil to the distributor plugs into.  The magnetic field
>collapses around this bar (Faraday's conductor) and generates an
>electrical charge in the bar.

The coil wire just plugs into an iron bar? Uhhhh....
No, the high voltage lead is in no way connected to the iron bar (core).
Absolutely no current flows within the iron bar itself. (except
for small eddy currents within the bar laminations. These currents
are undesirable and are "lost", that is, the energy is wasted
heating the iron and detracts from the power transfered to the secondary.
This iron core only serves to store the magnetic energy from the
primary winding. Current does not intentionally flow thru it.

>3) This electrical charge is then conducted from the bar, through the
>coil wire to the distributor cap, then through the rotor to a particular
>plug wire and spark plug.

No. The bar is electricaly insulated from the both primary and
secondary windings. The secondary is a winding of many many turns
of copper wire wrapped around the iron bar.
When the magnetic field collapses, energy is transferred to this coil
of wire and a voltage is produced between it's 2 ends.
We know that ONE end goes to the coil wire, then to the
cap/rotor/sparkplugs, then finally to the engine block.
In order for this current to WANT to go to the engine block, the
OTHER end of the secondary coil must also be electrically connected
to the block somehow. This completes the circuit.
How are you suggesting this is accomplished?

>4) This electrical charge then jumps the gap between the electrodes in
>the plug, and goes to ground via the spark plug threads.

Ground is perhaps the wrong word here. The current returns to the
engine block. Why does it want to go to the block?
Because that forms the return path back to the other end of the
secondary winding, which would also need to have some connection
to the block in order for current to flow.
This path to the block is provided because the "non coil wire" end
of the secondary winding is connected to the "-" terminal on the
primary, and the capacitor (which is across the points) provides
the return path to the block.

>5) The condenser next to the points simply keeps the points from arcing
>by providing a path of least resistance for the primary circuit.  Without
>the condenser, primary voltage would jump the gap in the points just like
>the secondary voltage jumps the spark plug gap. While your car may run
>without the condensor, the points will burn up rapidly.

Yes. and No. The condensor does keep the primary current from
continuing to flow thru the points as they open. It also
keeps the current from the *non coil wire end* secondary from
jumping across the points by providing a low impedance path
to the block, which it needs to complete the circuit.

>6) The secondary circuit grounds through the spark plugs only -- nowhere
>else.

But... it's a circuit, right?
The secondary winding is a coil of wire. It has has 2 ends. Right?
Lets call them A and B.  We know where end "A" goes. It connects to
the coil wire, does the distributor cap/rotor/cap thing, then goes
to the spark plug. Current from end "A" jumps the plug gap and goes
to the engine block. How are you proposing that the current then
returns from the block to end "B" of the secondary winding to complete
the circuit?
Are you suggesting that End "B" is connected to nothing and that
end "A" just wants to spit electrons out towards the block because
it's big and heavy, or...what?

>There is no ground through the case of the coil.  A continuity
>check between the high-tension terminal and the case should show an open
>circuit -- no continuity.

We are certainly in agreement there.

>Enough of this thread, already.  This ain't rocket science.

No it isn't rocket science. It's one of the simplest (and most
necessary) parts of an old Ford truck...
And yet judging from some of the strange posts on the subject,
there are still some folks who don't understand how the system
really works, beyond "the points open and close and if the coil
shocks your buddy then all is O.K."
I'm not trying to be a smart ass or push a point to far, but I  think
effective troubleshooting of a system is best accomplished when you
know how a system works... and there seems to be some disagreement
and confusion about just what is happening to make that spark jump
it's little gap.

Jim Imboden






 luminous neteze.com




------------------------------

From: "Gary Tobolski" <garyt mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Engine won't start-update
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 23:27:40 -0500


> Next was the engine kicking back after releasing the
> starter.  Everyone
> > recommended timing, but I didn't think so since the
> distributor hadn't
> been
> > out.  The problem was that I connected a vacuum advance
> line, and this
> > wasn't connected last time.  Remove the line, and the
> problem is solved.
>
> Not solved. Without vacuum advance, your engine will not
> perform properly
> over the full operating range.
>
I understand that.  Now, I am just trying to get the thing to start.  After
that, I will re-connect the line and adjust the timing.

> > Now for my question.  The fuel pump that was on the engine has three
> > connection points, which I was told was to return the fuel
> to the tank.  I
> > know this pump is good, so I would like to know which
> connection is the
> > return line.  Also, can I either just plug the line, or put
> a t-fitting
> just
> > before the fuel pump to connect this to?  Or am I just
> going to have to
> run
> > a return line to the tank to use this?  Thanks again for ....


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