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Received: with LISTAR (v1.0.0; list 61-79-list); Thu, 01 Feb 2001 18:42:35 -0500 (EST)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 18:42:35 -0500 (EST) From: Ford Truck Enthusiasts List Server <listar  ford-trucks.com>
To: 61-79-list digest users <listar ford-trucks.com>
Reply-to: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: 61-79-list Digest V2001 #32 Precedence: list ========================================================== Ford Truck Enthusiasts 1961-1979 Truck Mailing List Visit our web site: http://www.ford-trucks.com To unsubscribe, send email to: listar ford-trucks.com with
the words "unsubscribe 61-79-list" in the subject of the message. ========================================================== Serious help restoring and maintaining your Ford truck! ---------------------------------------------------------- Check out the following items in our online store: 1961-1979 Factory Service (Shop) Manuals on CD-ROM 1961-1967 Factory Service (Shop) Manuals (Printed) 1963-1967 Wiring Diagrams 1957-1972 Ford Truck Illustrated Facts and Features manuals 1963-1967 Ford factory Engine Assembly Manuals 1961-1970 Ford Truck Body, Trim and Interior Assembly/Disassembly manuals <a href="http://www.motorhaven.com/"> http://www.motorhaven.com/</a> ---------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------ 61-79-list Digest Thu, 01 Feb 2001 Volume: 2001 Issue: 032 In This Issue: Engine won't stop (again) Re: 460 lost oil pressure Re: Flux capacitores and coils.... Re: Engine won't stop (again) Re: 460 lost oil pressure Re: Flux capacitores and coils.... Coil grounding Vacuum dia Re: 460 lost oil pressure Lost oil pressure oil pressure and amounts for 460? Re: Engine won't stop (again) Re: ENGINE WONT START Thanks All For the Help Re: Coil grounding Engine won't start-update Re: Engine won't stop (again) Re: zip ties and hay bales, was:ENGINE WONT START Re: Coil grounding Re: Engine won't start-update Re: zip ties and hay bales, was:ENGINE WONT START Re: Engine won't stop (again) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 08:49:14 -0600 From: John Strauss <jstrauss inetport.com>
Subject: Engine won't stop (again) >OK OK, ya got me. The flux is built when the points are open, voltage from >the primary side of the coil < read a small number of copper wire windings >wraped around a iron core> is inducing a current into the secondary windings ><read MANY more windings of copper wire wrapped around an iron core> . This >creats a very high voltage, around 25 thousand volts, with VERY low current. >Thats why people can get a very uncomfortable feeling touching a plug wire >yet live to tell about it. :) The flux builds up within the coil when the >points are open, the flux field collapses when the points close and put a >ground on the - side of the coil. This 25 KV flux field is disharged to the >secondary side of the coil. < the coil wire> The coil wire output is ALWAYS >referred to as the secondary output. The + and - side of the coil are >ALWAYS referred to as the primary voltage circuit. What I was trying to say >last night was, if you held the + or - negative side of the coil to ground, >you will not have this building and disharge of voltage which is commonly >referred to as the flux field. Bottom line, you ground any of the three >connections from your coil,<err, and hold it there> your truck will not have >fire to the plugs! > Wait, wait, wait, hold the phone. The coil energizes when the points are CLOSED and the field collapses when the points OPEN, which fires the coil. Right? That's why a smaller gap gives the coil more time to saturate because the points are closed longer, right? Or have I been deceived all my life? _ _| ~~. John Strauss \, *_} jstrauss inetport.com
\( Texas Fight! ------------------------------ From: "Jeff Bennett" <jmb40 amexol.net>
Subject: Re: 460 lost oil pressure Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:01:55 -0500 I had a problem with my 460, where the oil pressure would fall low at idle. It got progressively worse until it finally lost oil pressure. I found the bolts holding the pump to the block had worked loose. One had fallen completely out, and the other was worked half way out. I guess who ever was in the bottom end last didn't tighten them up. I reattached the pump and had no more problems. I just have pulled the engine out of the parts truck it was in, to begin a rebuild on it, in preparation to put it in my 70 camper special, and when I pulled the pan off the pump was still tight. jb -----Original Message----- From: 61-79-list-bounce ford-trucks.com
[mailto:61-79-list-bounce ford-trucks.com]On Behalf Of Karl Streich
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 1:33 AM To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: [61-79-list] 460 lost oil pressure ---------------------------------------------------------- Support FTE - Check out our store: http://www.motorhaven.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------- HI My '77 460 lost oil pressure the other day, it started at about half of normal oil pressure, 1/4 of the way up the scale, and over 10 minutes droped to nothing, asside from the obvious insturment malfunction what might be the culprit??? Karl _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://explorer.msn.com ============================================================= To unsubscribe: www.ford-trucks.com/mailinglist.html#item3 Please remove this footer when replying. ------------------------------ From: "GaryBBB" <gpeters3 lni.net>
Subject: Re: Flux capacitores and coils.... Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:05:02 -0800 I'm not an engineer but I know one thing about spark...the flux is built up or the primary coil is "Saturated" while power is applied to it. The energy is actually stored in the primary coil wires in the form of magnetic flux which radiates outward and passes through and beyond the secondary coil wires. While power is applied it also induces voltage into the secondary which at that point has no way to flow (I presume from what you all are saying?) At this point the secondary coil has very little energy because once the primary is fully saturated the flow is reduced significantly so it just sits there twiddling it's thumbs. All of the energy is actually stored in the primary (by way of the magnetic flux) until the input side of the coil is shorted to ground or the circuit is opened (which ever they are doing?) Since the applied power is DC there is no significant inductance to the secondary coil until the power is cut off suddenly and the magnetic field collapses which it does very quickly because the iron core is pure iron, deliberately softened so that it won't retain any magnatism. It has to be done in this way becasuse the saturation process (which does induce some voltage into the secondary) takes too long and the energy developed is insufficient to make the spark. Now, HOW they make that happen is a little fuzzy to me right now but at some point the secondary coil HAS to have a ground for current to flow. I suspect that the secondary is grounded at the same time the flux capacitor (kidding:-)) is drained when the points close which is done electronically with transistors in the dura spark system. If the green wire is broken you will not get spark because no ground can be made. It is possible that there is no ground connection to the coil can as everyone is saying but the loose coil failure is still a mystery to me and I will test the theory one day soon and report on my findings :-) BTW, there is considerable current while the field is collapsing but it is of very short duration so has no serious effect on humans, much like passing your finger through a match flame quickly.....there isn't time for your skin to absorb much energy so it "Seems" like there isn't much there. Remember that it is current that produces heat, not voltage.....the voltage produces the force to cause current to flow when the points are opened etc. but it only flows for a millisecond. We don't feel the heat but gasoline does :-) (fortunately for most of us :-)) The reason we are not shocked by a 12v battery is that there isn't enough "Voltage" to "force" enough courrent through our very high resistance skin to produce sufficient current to bother us. As you increase the voltage this natural resistance is overcome and you feel the "shock". If you are wet and well grounded then you feel a shock at lower voltages and if there is any inductance in any part of the low voltage apparatus you are messing with you can get a serious shock because this can increase the "Voltage" enough to shock you just as a coil does. When welding you have only about 25-40v in the rod (typically) but because your work is well grounded and you have oil and moisture in your skin you can, on damp days especially, get a little shock when replacing the rods if you are leaning against the work. There is also some inductance and capacitance going on there so when the rod is not actually working the voltage can build up etc.....Ain't electricity fun? Here's another place we can argue some :-) The heat here is produced by the air gap just like in a spark plug.....why does a spark plug with roughly the same gap require so much more "Voltage"??? I'm actually serious here?? -- Happily Retired (but broke) Michigan Pot Hole Jumping, 78 Bronco Loving, Gary -- > OK, this is fun. I know what your saying and I agree 100% with you. Just > want to point out that what we write isn't exactly what we were thinking. > Sometimes it's hard to convey a piont. Lord knows I do it all > the time and > will probably do it here again. :) ------------------------------ From: "GaryBBB" <gpeters3 lni.net>
Subject: Re: Engine won't stop (again) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:12:25 -0800 No, that's how I remember it too. Closing the points energizes the primary....opening them collapses the flux producing inductance in the secondary coil. The capacitor is there to absorb "Battery" voltage while the points are open so they don't arc and has nothing to do with the coil operation other than to ensure that the points do what they are supposed to do, Make and break the voltage to the primary QUICKLY :-) What you are talking about is "Duration". More duration (points open longer via opening to greater gap in most cases) means longer spark life but also less time for primary saturation. This is why they have gone to "Coil on plug" technology. It allows full saturation of the primary side of the coil for much hotter spark at higher rpms. I may not know how the coil is grounded but I do know a few things :-) -- Happily Retired (but broke) Michigan Pot Hole Jumping, 78 Bronco Loving, Gary -- > Wait, wait, wait, hold the phone. The coil energizes when the points are > CLOSED and the field collapses when the points OPEN, which fires the coil. > Right? That's why a smaller gap gives the coil more time to saturate > because the points are closed longer, right? Or have I been deceived all > my life? ------------------------------ From: daves8 juno.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 08:25:58 -0700 Subject: Re: 460 lost oil pressure Check it the easy way. Install a mechanical oil pressure gauge at the block and see what the pressure actually is. Best way to cut through all the uncertainty and find out if you actually have a problem. Dave Schoenberg Arvada, Colorado On Wed, 31 Jan 2001 22:32:36 -0800 "Karl Streich" <fordlist hotmail.com>
writes: > My '77 460 lost oil pressure the other day......... ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ From: "GaryBBB" <gpeters3 lni.net>
Subject: Re: Flux capacitores and coils.... Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:58:26 -0800 Oooooops, point are opened, not closed, sorry :-) Thank's John for reminding me. The points close to energize the flux and open to collapse it and that's final :-) I'm reasonably sure it is done the same way electronically as well because collapsing the magnetic field is a much faster process and produces the greatest amount of inductance in the secondary so it has to be done this way. Turn on the power to saturate the coil and build the flux and turn off the power to "Induce" the current for spark. -- Happily Retired (but broke) Michigan Pot Hole Jumping, 78 Bronco Loving, Gary -- > Now, HOW they make that happen is a little fuzzy to me right now > but at some > point the secondary coil HAS to have a ground for current to flow. I > suspect that the secondary is grounded at the same time the flux capacitor > (kidding:-)) is drained when the points close which is done electronically > with transistors in the dura spark system. ------------------------------ From: "Azie L. Magnusson" <maggie11 HiWAAY.net>
Subject: Coil grounding Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:54:29 -0600 Dennis P writes: >>Is it possible there is a difference in the newer (electronic) systems and the old (standard ignition) style like I have? That could be the source of some of the disagreement. I thought I understood how to hook up a coil for the last 40 years or so, but now I'm really confused...All these years I believed if the secondary side of the coil, the side that goes to the condenser/points, got grounded, that the points wouldn't fire...Now...? If the can is grounded and the secondary contact is connected to the can, then that provides a reason for the points to fire (seeking a ground ?)...I better get back to research papers. And I think I'll just replace the coil in that Cleveland and tear the old one apart...<< I may be all wet, but this is the way I've always thought it to be: The primary side and the secondary side share a common ground(which is the points) and the switched battery voltage is supplied to the positive terminal and the high voltage is exited by the coil wire.. When the points close, the voltage flows through the primary side then ceases as the points open back up, causing the magnetic field to expand and collapse causing voltage in the secondary.. Neither side need be grounded until a spark is needed!!! Am I close??? Don't have a clue how that reluctor in the electronic units works, but the results are great. Azie Magnusson Ardmore, Al. ------------------------------ From: "Azie L. Magnusson" <maggie11 HiWAAY.net>
Subject: Vacuum dia Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:57:22 -0600 John LaG, writes: >>For sure there is a difference in the years. Tonnage makes a difference, too.<< That makes sense to me. Azie Magnusson Ardmore, Al. ------------------------------ From: "GaryBBB" <gpeters3 lni.net>
Subject: Re: 460 lost oil pressure Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:05:40 -0800 With the 460 it is less frequent than the 335 series engines but it is still possible to twist off the dizzy/oil pump drive shaft and dizzy roll pin in the gear due to a seized pump but in that case you would not get any pressure ever and the engine will eventually, if not immediately, die and fail to restart. If this happened suddenly then a wire to the sender or the sender itself could be the problem. If it happened over time and now has zero at idle when warm then it's bearings or clogged screen or pump is falling off as mentioned. If you don't have any gauges to stick on it just loosen a gallery plug or the oil sender itself, which ever is easiest to get at and start the engine and pull it out, slowly to see if any oil squirts out the threads. If you don't mind the mess you could just pull it out and be ready to shut off the engine:-) If oil squirts out you do have pressure :-) (wear safety glasses for this though) -- Happily Retired (but broke) Michigan Pot Hole Jumping, 78 Bronco Loving, Gary -- > HI > > My '77 460 lost oil pressure the other day, it started at about half of > normal oil pressure, 1/4 of the way up the scale, and over 10 > minutes droped > to nothing, asside from the obvious insturment malfunction what > might be the > culprit??? > > Karl ------------------------------ From: "Azie L. Magnusson" <maggie11 HiWAAY.net>
Subject: Lost oil pressure Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:14:57 -0600 Karl S. wriotess: >>My '77 460 lost oil pressure the other day, it started at about half of normal oil pressure, 1/4 of the way up the scale, and over 10 minutes droped to nothing, asside from the obvious insturment malfunction what might be the culprit???<< Could be many things, but I'd be sure I had oil pressure before I drove it again.. Most likely if the lifters are not clattering very loudly, then you really do still have oil pressure, but I'd want to know for sure. Those 460's do not overhaul cheaply. I'm in the middle of a complete rebuild of a '77 460 right now.. Those parts places really love their 460 parts.. A mechanical gauge could let you know for sure. As suggested by this list on many previous occasions to test the gauge, simply take the wire off the sending unit and ground it. Your gauge should deflect to maximum oil pressure(with ignition on of course). If it doesn't then the wire or the gauge or the IVR(Instrument voltage regulator) may be bad. The IVR controls the temp gauge also, so if it is OK, then it will be either the wire or the gauge. If it does reflect to maximum pressure when you ground the wire, then it is most likely the sending unit. Most auto parts stores carry these, and they are easily replaced. Yours in on the very top/rear of the engine - single wire going to it. Azie Magnusson Ardmore, Al. ------------------------------ From: "Bob" <xavetarx home.com>
Subject: oil pressure and amounts for 460? Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:39:48 -0500 While on the subject of oil... Is it normal for the gauge to read real high at start, and then slowly come down to 35-50 and then stay? Also, what should the amount of oil be (quarts)? I changed the oil with the idea that it should have 7 quarts. However, while adding, I checked at 6, and it read too much. I've never heard of a 6 (or less??) quart oil pan on a 460, but I may be wrong. The plug is on the front side of the engine, not the back (make a difference?). I'm not sure what 460 it is, as when I bought the truck (79 bronco) it already had been swapped in. I do notice a slight chatter of the lifters. Any ideas, or experience with such a reading being false?.. Should I just put in 7? Thanks, -bob- 79 Bronco 460 44's T18 79 Bronco 400 40's C6 ------------------------------ From: luminous neteze.com
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 09:44:22 -0800 Subject: Re: Engine won't stop (again) Gary wrote: >No, that's how I remember it too. Closing the points energizes the >primary....opening them collapses the flux producing inductance in the >secondary coil. The capacitor is there to absorb "Battery" voltage while >the points are open so they don't arc << Gary, this is correct up to this point. When the points close, current flows thru the primary winding, building up a magnetic flux. When the points open, primary current continues to flow for a very brief time until the condensor is fully charged to battery voltage. The condensor helps protect the points by acting as a "shock absorber" to keep current from arcing across the points as they begin to open. Once the condensor is "full", no more current flows and the magnetic field collapses. As the field collapses it induces a voltage in the secondary winding. >and has nothing to do with the coil >operation other than to ensure that the points do what they are supposed to >do, Make and break the voltage to the primary QUICKLY :-) Here is where we disagree. The condensor has a second function. When the points open, the magnetic field collapses and induces a voltage in the secondary winding. One end of this winding is essentially attached to a spark plug, and the other end is attached to the points, along with one end of the primary winding. If the condensor did not exist, the energy from the secondary would not only jump the spark plug gap, it would also jump across the points gap to find ground. Obviously this would be bad, since the spark has to waste energy jumping a second gap and would also damage the points in a big hurry. The condensor provides the ground path for the secondary current. This current appears as a very brief pulse, which the capacitor can pass to ground with very little resistance. Remember that a capacitor will block current flow in a DC circuit (once the capacitor is fully charged), but will pass an AC current or brief DC pulse quite readily, according to the formula for capacitive reactance. 1 Xc= --------- 2PiFC Where Xc is the capacitive reactance in ohms F is the frequency in cycles per second C is the capacitance in Farads Pi is ~3.1416 It is this capacitor which effectively "grounds" the secondary winding when the points are open. There is no other ground for the secondary. It is in no way tied to the can of the coil. Simple electronic ignitions, such as Duraspark operate identically, except that the points are replaced with a transistor. Gary, here's a simple experiment for you to try. Take your ohmmeter, set on the highest ohms range and measure the resistance from each of the 3 coil terminals to the case. In each instance it will (should) read infinite ohms. This verifies that there is no connection from any winding to the case. Now measure from the secondary terminal to the "-" terminal. Resistance will likely be somewhere from 5K-15K ohms. This is the resistance of the secondary coil, and verifies that one end of this coil is internally connected to the "-" terminal. Now measure the resistance from the "+" terminal to the "-" terminal. This is the primary winding and will likely measure around 1-2 ohms. Measuring from the "+" terminal to the secondary (H.V.) terminal would produce a reading thats the sum of the 2 winding resistances. Let us know if you find any coils where the secondary is connected to the case and not the "-" primary terminal. I'd like to know where it came from, since I've never seen such a beast. (but there's always a first time!) Cheers, Jim Imboden 1970 F100, 240/6 T-18 luminous neteze.com
------------------------------ From: luminous neteze.com
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 09:44:24 -0800 Subject: Re: ENGINE WONT START John wrote: >Thanks, Jim. My Ford experience is rather limited. I know my uncle used to >tell me that if the coil ever shorted to ground, you could unbolt it, lay it >up on the engine wrapped in a rag and get home. In those days I was driving >stuff from the general. John, Yeah, that makes sense. The likely internal coil failures are: 1) Burned out (open) winding. 2) Inter-winding short. (insulation breakdown and adjacent coils short together) 3) Winding to can short. (insulation breakdown and coils short to iron core and/or can.) In the case of 1) or 2) it's time to start walking, but in 3), unbolting the coil and insulating the case from ground just might get you home. (-: >Zip ties hadn't been invented. Come on John, that's rediculous. I think Zip ties have *always* been around. (-: How could primitive man ever have evolved into decent mechanics without zip ties? I'm sure they must have been one of the first tools ever invented, but they were probably made of stone or bronze or something. Personally, I can't even imagine life without them! Cheers, Jim Imboden 1970 F100, 240/6 T-18 luminous neteze.com
------------------------------ From: "mail.in-tch.com" <tet2met in-tch.com>
Subject: Thanks All For the Help Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:01:28 -0800 I would like to thank everybody for the response to my vacuum question. Soon as the weather breaks here, I will see what I can get done. To respond to some comments, I have a neighbor who has a 78 with a 400hp with a standard transmission and it wasn't even close to what I have. I have also been looking for the decal that shows the schematic for the vacuum with out success. Thanks again for all the suggestions. Tom ------------------------------ From: daves8 juno.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:18:00 -0700 Subject: Re: Coil grounding Like some guys already have said..... The points close and energize the primary side of the coil. When the points open, the field collapses into the iron core. Faraday's Law says that you generate electricity with a magnetic field, a conductor and relative motion between the two. The collapsing field actually creates the relative motion with the conductor ( the iron core inside the coil that goes to the high-tension lead) and therefore the voltage is generated. This voltage (30,000 volts or so) jumps the gap across the plug electrodes and creates the spark. The secondary side is basically static electricity -- no ground is there and no ground is needed. Just like lightning. Dave Schoenberg Arvada, Colorado ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ From: "Gary Tobolski" <garyt mediaone.net>
Subject: Engine won't start-update Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 15:15:07 -0500 Hello. First of all, thank you everyone that offered advice. The first problem was that the engine stopped cranking. I knew the battery was good, but had the battery and starter tested anyway. Both were good, so I replaced the solenoid. Problem solved. Next was the engine kicking back after releasing the starter. Everyone recommended timing, but I didn't think so since the distributor hadn't been out. The problem was that I connected a vacuum advance line, and this wasn't connected last time. Remove the line, and the problem is solved. The last problem turned out to be getting the fuel to the engine. It turns out that I've got a bad fuel pump. Brand new out of the box, so I didn't think this was my problem. Now for my question. The fuel pump that was on the engine has three connection points, which I was told was to return the fuel to the tank. I know this pump is good, so I would like to know which connection is the return line. Also, can I either just plug the line, or put a t-fitting just before the fuel pump to connect this to? Or am I just going to have to run a return line to the tank to use this? Thanks again for all the help. Eric Tobolski ------------------------------ From: "John LaGrone" <jlagrone ford-trucks.com>
Subject: Re: Engine won't stop (again) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:36:51 -0600 >snip< > If the condensor did not exist, the energy from the secondary > would not only jump the spark plug gap, it would also jump > across the points gap to find ground. Obviously this would be > bad, since the spark has to waste energy jumping a second gap > and would also damage the points in a big hurry. OK, the primary circuit goes to the battery and the secondary fires the plugs, right? The primary goes through the points, not the secondary. Hot wire from the B+ goes to + side of the coil. - side of the coil goes to the points. Primary grounds when points are closed. All that little bitty condensor does is prevent radio noise. My 79 runs well whether I have that condensor or not. I know..the 79 is Duraspark. > The condensor provides the ground path for the secondary current. The secondary circuit goes from the high tension output to the center of the distributor cap, through the rotor, to the spark plug, to ground when it sparks. Period. Look at a single cylinder magneto lawnmower or motorcyle ignition. They don't even have a battery, but still need the points in the primary side to fire the plug. Secondary goes straight from the coil to the spark plug. >which the capacitor can pas to ground with very little resistance. > Remember that a capacitor will block current flow in a DC circuit > (once the capacitor is fully charged), but will pass an AC current > or brief DC pulse quite readily, according to the formula for > capacitive reactance. 1 > Xc= --------- > 2PiFC > > Where Xc is the capacitive reactance in ohms > F is the frequency in cycles per second > C is the capacitance in Farads > Pi is ~3.1416 Looks good. I'll pass on this section. > > It is this capacitor which effectively "grounds" the secondary > winding when the points are open. > There is no other ground for the secondary. It is in no way > tied to the can of the coil. Nope, I don't buy this. > > Simple electronic ignitions, such as Duraspark operate identically, > except that the points are replaced with a transistor. Correct. Or an optical switch. --John LaGrone jlagrone ford-trucks.com
See Henry at: http://www.ford-trucks.com/jlagrone/henry.home.htm ------------------------------ From: "John LaGrone" <jlagrone ford-trucks.com>
Subject: Re: zip ties and hay bales, was:ENGINE WONT START Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:43:21 -0600 >snip< > Come on John, that's rediculous. I think Zip ties have *always* > been around. (-: > How could primitive man ever have evolved into decent mechanics > without zip ties? I'm sure they must have been one of the first > tools ever invented, but they were probably made of stone or bronze > or something. Personally, I can't even imagine life without them! Like Darrell said a couple of days ago: baling wire. You see all hay bales were rectangular, not round, and tied with wire, not string. Believe it or not a hay bale could be lifted by a single man and you could haul a goodly number in the back of your F series truck. I know there are some people still using the older bale style, but around here almost everyone uses the giant round bales. --John LaGrone jlagrone ford-trucks.com
See Henry at: http://www.ford-trucks.com/jlagrone/henry.home.htm ------------------------------ From: "John LaGrone" <jlagrone ford-trucks.com>
Subject: Re: Coil grounding Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:47:47 -0600 > The secondary side is basically static electricity -- no ground is there > and no ground is needed. Just like lightning. In principal correct, technically incorrect. Electricity always needs a ground to complete the circuit and move. Actually, the negative side of a potential is where the electrons exist in surplus, so electricity really moves from negative to positive. Until the mid 50s, most cars and trucks were positive ground. The popularity of AM radio changed all of that. --John LaGrone jlagrone ford-trucks.com
See Henry at: http://www.ford-trucks.com/jlagrone/henry.home.htm ------------------------------ From: "John LaGrone" <jlagrone ford-trucks.com>
Subject: Re: Engine won't start-update Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:58:31 -0600 > Next was the engine kicking back after releasing the starter. Everyone > recommended timing, but I didn't think so since the distributor hadn't been > out. The problem was that I connected a vacuum advance line, and this > wasn't connected last time. Remove the line, and the problem is solved. Not solved. Without vacuum advance, your engine will not perform properly over the full operating range. > Now for my question. The fuel pump that was on the engine has three > connection points, which I was told was to return the fuel to the tank. I > know this pump is good, so I would like to know which connection is the > return line. Also, can I either just plug the line, or put a t-fitting just > before the fuel pump to connect this to? Or am I just going to have to run > a return line to the tank to use this? Thanks again for all the help. You should be able to plug the return port with a brass plug and use the pump. If possible, I would return it to the seller and get the correct pump. --John LaGrone jlagrone ford-trucks.com
See Henry at: http://www.ford-trucks.com/jlagrone/henry.home.htm ------------------------------ From: "wish" <wish ford-trucks.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:11:24 GMT Subject: Re: zip ties and hay bales, was:ENGINE WONT START >baling wire. You see all hay bales >were rectangular, not round, and tied with wire, not string. Believe it or >not a hay bale could be lifted by a single man and you could haul a goodly >number in the back of your F series truck. I know there are some people >still using the older bale style, but around here almost everyone uses the >giant round bales. > My grandfather still bales the small square ones, for some reason the "horsey" people like them 'cause there's lest waste. I was able to make a killing when I was a student by working on the small farms around here that still do use the small bales. Its hard to find kids to do the work anymore and most of the farmers are too old or have heart problems, so they pay well for a couple fields worth of work :) Oh yeah and part of my Christmas present before my 16th birthday was some bailing wire. The family joke is that you need bailing wire to hold old Ford truck's together ever since Grandpa used it to hold the sides of his rattletrap together after a particularly enthusiastic load of bales. The irony was that my cousin with his brand-x machines has used all of his wire up and gone to duct tape, while I've still got all they gave me around here somewhere ... Just my $.02 wish 96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L 73ish 1/2ton 4x4 6.4L http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish Ford Truck Enthusiasts http://www.ford-trucks.com ------------------------------ From: luminous neteze.com
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 14:41:07 -0800 Subject: Re: Engine won't stop (again) >>snip< >> If the condensor did not exist, the energy from the secondary >> would not only jump the spark plug gap, it would also jump >> across the points gap to find ground. Obviously this would be >> bad, since the spark has to waste energy jumping a second gap >> and would also damage the points in a big hurry. John replied: >OK, the primary circuit goes to the battery and the secondary fires the >plugs, right? Right. >The primary goes through the points, not the secondary. Well, the "non spark-plug end" of the secondary coil is connected to the "-" end of the primary winding which in turn is connected to the points... Primary current flows thru the points, but no secondary current actually flows thru the points, since secondary current occurs when the points are open. However, this secondary current flows thru the condensor which is wired in parallel with the points. >Hot >wire from the B+ goes to + side of the coil. - side of the coil goes to the >points. Primary grounds when points are closed. Right. >All that little bitty >condensor does is prevent radio noise. Are we talking about the same condensor? I'm speaking of the one that is inside the distributor, wired in parallel with the points. This is what AC couples the secondary winding to ground when the points are open. >My 79 runs well whether I have that >condensor or not. I know..the 79 is Duraspark. I'm thinking that you must be refering to the capacitor which is sometimes connected from the * B+ * side of the coil to ground. Yes, this does just reduce radio interferance. > >> The condensor provides the ground path for the secondary current. > >The secondary circuit goes from the high tension output to the center of the >distributor cap, through the rotor, to the spark plug, to ground when it >sparks. Period. Well, yeah that's where ONE end of the secondary winding goes. But a coil of wire has 2 ends, right? And current needs a conmplete circuit to flow, so the OTHER end of the winding has to be connected *somewhere*. The other end is connected to the "-" end of the primary winding, which in turn is connected to the distributor points AND the condensor which is wired in parallel with the points. It is this condensor which provides the current pathway to ground for the secondary winding when the points are open. Here's a crummy ASCII veiw of the circuit: B+ >----------+ S------> H.V. to rotor, cap, spark plug---Ground P E R C I O M N A D R A Y R | Y "-" |----| | < Primary winding, secondary winding, | points, and condensor are all connected |----C together to the "-" terminal of the coil P O O N I D N E T N S S | O | R | | Ground Battery voltage (B+) is applied to one end of the primary winding. When the points are closed, current flows thru the primary winding, thru the points, and to ground. The condensor does nothing since it is directly shorted out by the points. Current flow thru the primary winding builds up a magnetic field within the coil. When the points open, current stops flowing thru them. However current thru the primary continues very briefly until the condensor, which is wired across the (now open) points, is charged to battery voltage. At this point, when the voltage on the capacitor is the same as the battery voltage, no more current can flow. Current thru the primary winding has ceased, and now the magnetic field collapses. As the field collapses, it induces a voltage across the secondary winding. The current path for the "business end" of the secondary is already understood... Like so: Secondary winding-rotor-cap-sparkplug-ground. But the other end of the winding needs an effective path to ground to complete the circuit... The points are open, so that's not it. The condensor across the points serves this function. Altho the condensor blocks the steady state DC voltage from the battery, it will readily pass an AC current, or a brief DC pulse, such as is generated by the secondary winding. This condensor IS the current return path to ground for the end of the secondary that doesn't go to the spark plugs. If the condensor did not exist, the voltage would find it's way to ground by jumping across the contact points. >> It is this capacitor which effectively "grounds" the secondary >> winding when the points are open. >> There is no other ground for the secondary. It is in no way >> tied to the can of the coil. > >Nope, I don't buy this. Which part don't you buy? Do you believe the secondary is connected to the can internally, and not to the "-" end of the primary? If so, I believe you're wrong. Do you believe the secondary is connected to the "-" end of the primary and not the can (which is true), but not believe the part about the condensor being the secondary return path to ground? If this is the case, how would you suggest the secondary .... To access the rest of this feature you must be a logged in Registered User Of Ford Truck Enthusiasts
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