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Subject: 61-79-list Digest V2001 #31
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------------------------------------
61-79-list Digest Wed, 31 Jan 2001 Volume: 2001  Issue: 031

In This Issue:
Re: grounded coils
Doin' it Right
Vacuum diagram
Re: Vacuum diagram
Re: grounded coils
Engine Wont Stop (again)
460 lost oil pressure
Re: 460 lost oil pressure
Re: 460 lost oil pressure
Re: 460 lost oil pressure

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 06:42:17 -0800
From: Dennis Pearson <dpearson ctc.edu>
Subject: Re: grounded coils




GaryBBB wrote:
>

> I'll be testing some of these theories and let you know what I find out.
> I'll also let someone else hold the coil when I crank the engine :-)
>

Time to get out the videocam again...Seeing is believing...

Is it possible there is a difference in the newer (electronic) systems
and the old (standard ignition) style like I have?  That could be the
source of some of the disagreement.   I thought I understood how to hook
up a coil for the last 40 years or so, but now I'm really confused...All
these years I believed if the secondary side of the coil, the side that
goes to the condenser/points, got grounded, that the points wouldn't
fire...Now...?  If the can is grounded and the secondary contact is
connected to the can, then that provides a reason for the points to fire
(seeking a ground ?)...I better get back to research papers.  And I
think I'll just replace the coil in that Cleveland and tear the old one
apart...


http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://counterculture.ws
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://ctc.edu/~dpearson/popcult.html
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://home.att.net/~dlpearson/lyrics.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 07:24:18 -0800
From: Marv & Marge <ae722 lafn.org>
Subject: Doin' it Right


Darrell wrote, in part, after getting rid of 12 splices:
> And It wont cause me any problems down the line either.  All it took
> me was 30 min worth of work.  When you factor in the fact that I could've
> been stranded 50 miles from no where, I consider that 30 min time well spent.

Most of us here on this list seem to, more or less, take this attitude.
And I hear it said so many times how reliable our old Ford trucks are.
Think there is any correlation?  An ounce of prevention is worth.......

-M-

Marv Miller  mailto:ae722 lafn.org
"Striving to be the person
that my dog thinks I am".

------------------------------

From: "Azie L. Magnusson" <maggie11 HiWAAY.net>
Subject: Vacuum diagram
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:17:48 -0600

John LaG. writes: >>I sent Tom the diagram from my 351m as a jpg attachment. AFAIK, he still
needs a 400 diagram.<<

I would think they would be the same, provided both are 50 state
or both are Ca!!  Wouldn't you have thought so, also??
Reckon some older gent behind the FOMOCO parts counter somewhere
nearby would be able to dig one up from the archives for him??

Seems as if the older "Motors" brand manuals had Vacuum diagrams in
them also..

Azie Magnusson
Ardmore, Al.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:17:12 -0600
Subject: Re: Vacuum diagram
From: "John LaGrone" <jlagrone ford-trucks.com>


> I would think they would be the same, provided both are 50 state
> or both are Ca!!  Wouldn't you have thought so, also??

Makes sense to me, but I couldn't swear to it. On the Ford cars in the
wrecking yard, they have a decal on the valve cover that says 351/400 engine
family for the timing, spark gap, etc. Vacuum hose routing may differ
depending on whether or not the vehicle has a York air conditioner
compressor or a Harrison (gm) system. I don't think is an issue on trucks.

BTW, Tom, my diagram is 50 state, not California.

-- John
jlagrone ford-trucks.com     <]:-) <]:-)<]:-)<]:-)<]:-)<]:-)
1979 F150 Custom, Long Wide Bed, Regular Cab, 351M, C6 (Henry)
http://www.ford-trucks.com/jlagrone/henry.home.htm
Dearborn iron rules!!!!


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 16:31:57 -0800
From: Greg <greg gregster.com>
Subject: Re: Vacuum diagram




John LaGrone wrote:

> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Support FTE - Check out our store:
> http://www.motorhaven.com/
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> > I would think they would be the same, provided both are 50 state
> > or both are Ca!!  Wouldn't you have thought so, also??
>
> Makes sense to me, but I couldn't swear to it. On the Ford cars in the
> wrecking yard, they have a decal on the valve cover that says 351/400 engine
> family for the timing, spark gap, etc. Vacuum hose routing may differ
> depending on whether or not the vehicle has a York air conditioner
> compressor or a Harrison (gm) system. I don't think is an issue on trucks.
>

There could be a difference in the years too. I have a '78 400 with allot more
vacuum operated "stuff" than my '77 351M has. Neither one is a CA truck and both
are original.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:43:59 -0600
Subject: Re: Vacuum diagram
From: "John LaGrone" <jlagrone ford-trucks.com>


> There could be a difference in the years too. I have a '78 400 with allot more
> vacuum operated "stuff" than my '77 351M has. Neither one is a CA truck and
both
> are original.

For sure there is a difference in the years. Tonnage makes a difference,
too.

-- John
jlagrone ford-trucks.com     <]:-) <]:-)<]:-)<]:-)<]:-)<]:-)
1979 F150 Custom, Long Wide Bed, Regular Cab, 351M, C6 (Henry)
http://www.ford-trucks.com/jlagrone/henry.home.htm
Dearborn iron rules!!!!


------------------------------

From: "GaryBBB" <gpeters3 lni.net>
Subject: Re: grounded coils
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 19:48:41 -0800


Well, as I said I used to build them but can't remember where we soldered
everything to now but seems like one connection went to the case......most
seem to feel this is wrong so maybe I don't recall so well but when my coil
came loose so that there was no ground to the engine the engine quit and
when I tightened it back up it ran so I made an assumption....I know, I
know, I know.....assumptions......It's not an intermittant thing in the coil
or the red and green wires either, I'm still using the same coil and wire
connectors.  It will be a pretty simple thing to test when I get around to
it....one bolt :-)

The secondary coil has to have a complete circuit and this may be done via
the green wire on the coil, not sure.  Perhaps when you saturate the primary
coil there is no flow in the secondary til you cut the power via the points
or module but not sure how that would give the secondary the ground it
needs.  BTW, if you tear one down, do the oil filled.....the tar filled are
a pain :-) I remember we used to wrap them in a paper insulator so no part
of the varnished wire could touch the can,  then slip them into the cans
then solder some connections, fill them and roll crimp the plastic lid on
and that was the assy deal, details are pretty sketchy now :-)

The newer ones do work differently because they are integrated with the
module and other things but there still has to be a primary and secondary
and the secondary does have to be grounded.....somewhere.... or no current
could flow through the plugs.

--
Happily Retired (but broke)
Michigan Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
--

> Time to get out the videocam again...Seeing is believing...
>
> Is it possible there is a difference in the newer (electronic) systems
> and the old (standard ignition) style like I have?  That could be the


------------------------------

From: "rich" <richth exis.net>
Subject: Engine Wont Stop (again)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 23:26:33 -0500


>
> From: "Hogan, Tom (Portland)" <Tom.Hogan kla-tencor.com>
>
> Answers interspersed throughout.

OK, this is fun.  I know what your saying and I agree 100% with you.  Just
want to point out that what we write isn't exactly what we were thinking.
Sometimes it's hard to convey a piont.  Lord knows I do it all the time and
will probably do it here again. :)

Someone earlier stated that that lead of the coil is
connected to the negative connection of the coil.

Rich say's   Huh?

In other words both the
primary and secondary coils share a commond ground.  Perfectly legal.

First or second coil? My truck only has one.  :)
>
> > You ground the - primary side of the coil to the case, no voltage flux
is
> > built and no coil
> > secondary output.
>
> I disagree... a little.  Yes if you ground the - side of the coil the
engine
> will stop running but that is because you are shorting the points or
> magnetic pickup/control module out of the circuit.  If you ground it a
> constant current will flow through the coil's primary and create a static
> magnetic flux field.  The coil works by intermittent current flow causing
a
> constantly changing flux field which induces the voltage in the secondary
> coil.

OK OK, ya got me.  The flux is built when the points are open, voltage from
the primary side of the coil < read a small number of copper wire windings
wraped around a iron core> is inducing a current into the secondary windings
<read MANY more windings of copper wire wrapped around an iron core> . This
creats a very high voltage, around 25 thousand volts, with VERY low current.
Thats why people can get a very uncomfortable feeling touching a plug wire
yet live to tell about it. :)  The flux builds up within the coil when the
points are open, the flux field collapses when the points close and put a
ground on the - side of the coil.  This 25 KV flux field is disharged to the
secondary side of the coil. < the coil wire> The coil wire output is ALWAYS
referred to as the secondary output.  The + and - side of the coil are
ALWAYS referred to as the primary voltage circuit.  What I was trying to say
last night was, if you held the + or - negative side of the coil to ground,
you will not have this building and disharge of voltage which is commonly
referred to as the flux field.  Bottom line, you ground any of the three
connections from your coil,<err, and hold it there> your truck will not have
fire to the plugs!

> I pulled the metal coil of my old truck
> and took it to work today and MegOhmed all three points to the case using
> 10,000 volts.

> Not sure what you mean here.

Again, I attribute this lack of a clear explanation to my public educatin: )
I pulled my metal encased coil from my truck and used a megohmeter to test
it, based on Gary's experience with a problem he encountered.  I megohmed
from both the primary + and  -  connections and the secondary output of the
coil to the coil case.  The test showed no voltage loss whatsoever.  This is
good, means not even a hint of a short between all three points and the coil
case.  This, megohmeter, is a device that is used to test voltage leakage in
wires, or cables.  A wire can have no resistance <have no loss reading with
an ohm meter>  yet have a short to ground when voltage is applied.  Just
fixed this exact problem on our over priced USS Sea Wolf last month.  A
megohmeter applies a high voltage, low current signal, much like the coil
output of our trucks, into a wire.  It gives you a reading of the insulation
leakage.  If there is a short or near short to ground, this device will tell
you.   The problem is almost always a nick in the wire insulation .

> <snip Gary's original post>
>
> My guess is that the coil flopping around loose in the bracket caused the
> connections to it to break intermittently.  Either at the +/- connections
or
> at the high tension lead.

I agree with ya here as well!!

Rich



------------------------------

From: "Karl Streich" <fordlist hotmail.com>
Subject: 460 lost oil pressure
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 22:32:36 -0800


HI

My '77 460 lost oil pressure the other day, it started at about half of
normal oil pressure, 1/4 of the way up the scale, and over 10 minutes droped
to nothing, asside from the obvious insturment malfunction what might be the
culprit???

Karl
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://explorer.msn.com


------------------------------

From: Aeroape82 aol.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 06:02:58 EST
Subject: Re: 460 lost oil pressure

could be the oil pressure sender on the block or the wire came loose on it
(useally just a push on wire)  last your oil pump or the shaft that drives
it,(driven by bottom of distributer)  I would check wire and pressure sender
first easiest and cheapest to replace.


Glenn NY
78 F250 (talk about projects and headaches)



------------------------------

From: "John LaGrone" <jlagrone ford-trucks.com>
Subject: Re: 460 lost oil pressure
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 07:48:32 -0600


> My '77 460 lost oil pressure the other day, it started at about half of
> normal oil pressure, 1/4 of the way up the scale, and over 10 minutes
droped
> to nothing, asside from the obvious insturment malfunction what might be
the
> culprit???

Karl,

Did the engine quit running or did you shut it off? Was it knocking after
the gauge said no oil pressure? Have you recently changed the oil?

If you kept driving and the engine didn't quit on you, you probably have a
gauge circuit problem.

You may have a plugged oil filter or if you just changed the oil a defective
oil filter or the wrong type or size. My mother-in-law had a Cadillac that
kept triggering the oil pressure warning light. Turned out to be the wrong
oil filter.

Another possibility is water in the oil. Check your crank case level. If it
is over full and you are low on coolant....blown head gasket or cracked
engine component.

--John LaGrone
jlagrone ford-trucks.com
See Henry at: http://www.ford-trucks.com/jlagrone/henry.home.htm


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 09:36:34 -0700
From: "William Whited (Tony)" <f10074 ford-trucks.com>
Subject: Re: 460 lost oil pressure


Yeah I had the wire pop off of my 390 all the time.  If I hit a hard bump there
went the oil pressure.


> could be the oil pressure sender on the block or the wire came loose on it
> (useally just a push on wire)  last your oil pump or the shaft that drives
> it,(driven by bottom of distributer)  I would check wire and pressure sender
> first easiest and cheapest to replace.

--
William (Tony) Whited
74 F350 Ranger XLT Super Camper Special 460
77 F150 Custom 460
El Paso, TX
Semper Fi



------------------------------

End of 61-79-list Digest V2001 #31
**********************************

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