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------------------------------------
61-79-list Digest Tue, 23 Jan 2001 Volume: 2001  Issue: 023

In This Issue:
Fuel Injected
Re: Fuel Injected
Re: Fuel Injected
Re: HELP! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Re: The man...
Re: The man... & Albuquerque, NM
1967 F100 - transmission
Re: Fuel Injected
Re: The man...
Re: Fuel Injected
rear axle-check
Need transport between Pittsburgh and Philly
Re: The man ...
Re: Atmospheric Oxygen, Mother Nature...
C6
Re: C6
460 build
Re: C6 & rear seal leaks
Re: 460 build
Re: The man...
Junk Science, Politics, & FTE
Which engine?
Re: The man......
Re: Dual battery setup
Re: Which engine?
oxygenated fuel
Re: The man...
Re: Which engine?
Re: Which engine
Re: Which engine?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:25:26 -0600
From: Bruce Montcombroux <montcom BrandonU.CA>
Subject: Fuel Injected


I'm looking for info on fuel injection kits for a 390/C6 set-up. It
currently has a 2bbl carb.
Anyone done a swap like this? I am also looking for cost and suppliers or is
there a junkyard swap and rebuild possibility?
Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks
Bruce

1976 4x4 390/C6
1965 Mercury 240 I6
1964 Mercury Meteor




------------------------------

From: "wish" <wish ford-trucks.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:35:34 GMT
Subject: Re: Fuel Injected


>
>I'm looking for info on fuel injection kits for a 390/C6 set-up. It
>currently has a 2bbl carb.
>Anyone done a swap like this?

Hahaha ... its been done, but it ain't easy.  I believe Force Inductions can
sell you a "kit" to do it for around 2-4G's ...

> I am also looking for cost and suppliers or is
>there a junkyard swap and rebuild possibility?
>Any info would be appreciated.
>

I've had LOTS of ideas on how to accomplish this, but right now I'm kind of
leaning towards Accel's injection for big block Chevies.  It just so happens
that a .030 over 390 is right about 396 cubes, so I figure and injection system
tuned to a 396 should work pretty well, you'll obviously have to swap over the
stuff to an FE intake manifold to go this route, but at least you get the multi
port injection.

If you just want injection of any sort, look at Holley's system that bolts onto
a 4V intake, I'll probably be playing with one of these systems before the year's
out, some people have good luck, others have nothin but bad luck with them ...


Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4   6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:39:54 -0700
From: "William Whited (Tony)" <f10074 ford-trucks.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Injected


I know Holley has a setup try
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/ProdSlct/AV/Ford/FuelInj_352.html

Bruce Montcombroux wrote:

> I'm looking for info on fuel injection kits for a 390/C6 set-up. It
> currently has a 2bbl carb.
> Anyone done a swap like this? I am also looking for cost and suppliers or is
> there a junkyard swap and rebuild possibility?
> Any info would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks
> Bruce
>
> 1976 4x4 390/C6
> 1965 Mercury 240 I6
> 1964 Mercury Meteor

--
William (Tony) Whited
74 F350 Ranger XLT Super Camper Special 460
77 F150 Custom 460
El Paso, TX
Semper Fi



------------------------------

From: WEDIVE247 aol.com
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 17:42:10 EST
Subject: Re: HELP! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

In a message dated 1/22/2001 9:48:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Tom.Hogan kla-tencor.com writes:


> If it has point's and condenser it doesn't have an ignition module.  I would
> probably replace the points and definitely the condenser.  I had an engine
> that died completely once and the problem was  that the wire going into the
> condenser had burnt into 2 pieces.
>
> If you have a voltmeter you might try checking the circuit out with that.
>

I had almost the same problem with my 64 , which has a 351 w in it . Check
the small wire under the cap . mine was squished between the cap and the base
. moved it and it runs fine now .


Steve   64  F100         351 W



------------------------------

From: "Jason Derra" <derrar internetcds.com>
Subject: Re: The man...
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:01:35 -0800


Between my neighbor and I, we have 15 vehicles between us.  As long as my
wife doesn't complain, we have it made. :^)

Jason
'69 Bronco 5.0 HO EFI, NP435
'96 F250 Ext Cab 4WD Powerstroke
'77 F150 4WD 429
"As fast as necessary, as slow as possible"



------------------------------

From: "Jason Derra" <derrar internetcds.com>
Subject: Re: The man... & Albuquerque, NM
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:10:04 -0800



> Any one ever have people like me knocking on their doors and wanting to
buy
> the Ford truck in their yard?

I had a guy call me from 100 miles away asking if I wanted to sell parts or
the complete car sitting in my yard (86 Lincoln LSC).  I hadn't advertised
it or told anyone.  He said a friend of a friend had told him about it.  I
still don't know how he got my phone number, but I did sell some parts off
of it.

Jason
'69 Bronco 5.0 HO EFI, NP435
'96 F250 Ext Cab 4WD Powerstroke
'77 F150 4WD 429
"As fast as necessary, as slow as possible"



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 17:51:06 -0500
From: Bill <f10067 naxs.net>
Subject: 1967 F100 - transmission


I have a 1967 F100 with a 300 6 cyl engine, and a 3 speed
transmission (shifter on the column). The plate on the door says
"Trans C" (I'd like to know more about what that means).

For some time the transmission has been jumping out of gear (1
and 2) when going downhill. Recently, it has become difficult to
downshift into first gear, and upshift into third gear. You can
think you've put it in one of those gears, but when you let the
clutch out it jumps out of gear - like the gears are barely
meshing.

I've checked all of the linkage and don't think that anything is
amiss there.

Has anyone else experienced these problems? Am I due a rebuild or
new transmission?

TIA,
Bill

------------------------------

From: "Jason Derra" <derrar internetcds.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Injected
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:18:38 -0800


If you can live with throttle body injection, go with Howell or Turbo City.
They are based off of a GM system and work very well.  They offer several
different applications that might suit your needs.  I have heard nothing but
good things said about them.  Depending on how much work you want to do, I
have even seen flatheads with 5.0 SEFI (multiport) systems on them.

I would personally stay away from any of the Holley Projection units.  I
have installed a couple of these systems and then replaced them with carbs
because the owners weren't happy with the performance and driveability.  I
have heard many negative things said about these systems on the early Bronco
lists as well.

Jason
'69 Bronco 5.0 HO EFI, NP435
'96 F250 Ext Cab 4WD Powerstroke
'77 F150 4WD 429
"As fast as necessary, as slow as possible"





------------------------------

From: "Jason Derra" <derrar internetcds.com>
Subject: Re: The man...
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:22:14 -0800




> WOW, I would be in real trouble if I lived where you people live. I have
cars everywhere!  In my town > in NJ if you have plates on it it can stay,
or if it is on a registered trailer it can stay  even if its stripped.  If >
you throw a tarp over it thats even better yet. Annie

You have to be the car guys dream girl!!!    If I wasn't already happily
married... :^)

Jason
'69 Bronco 5.0 HO EFI, NP435
'96 F250 Ext Cab 4WD Powerstroke
'77 F150 4WD 429
"As fast as necessary, as slow as possible"



------------------------------

From: "Hogan, Tom (Portland)" <Tom.Hogan kla-tencor.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Injected
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:32:51 -0800



>
> I'm looking for info on fuel injection kits for a 390/C6 set-up. It
> currently has a 2bbl carb.
> Anyone done a swap like this? I am also looking for cost and
> suppliers or is
> there a junkyard swap and rebuild possibility?
> Any info would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks
> Bruce
>
> 1976 4x4 390/C6
> 1965 Mercury 240 I6
> 1964 Mercury Meteor
>
I haven't done one myself but have been thinking about it.  Basically there
are 2 types of fuel injection systems 1: Throttle body (looks like a carb)
2: Multiport injection (usually has a remote mounted filter and an airflow
sensor on the intake tract).

The easiest to adapt would probably be a TBI unit because you can use
commonly available manifolds and just bolt the throttle body on.  Holley has
a few TBI retrofit kits that include throttle body, harness and computer.

Multiport would be more difficult.  I haven't seen any multiport manifolds
for the FE series.  This would mean you would have to weld bungs into the
manifold for each injector (8 of them) and then make a fuel rail to feed
them.  I think Accel offers a system like this with a computer and harness
but you have to modify your own manifold.  I haven't actually seen this kit
so I may be wrong on this one.

For either system the fuel system would have to be modified with an electric
pump that can produce from 30 to 70 psi depending on the system and a return
line from the injectors to the tank.  This month's issue of Hot Rod covers
some of these topics.

Tom H.

------------------------------

From: "gene gardner" <genegow hotmail.com>
Subject: rear axle-check
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 17:55:48 -0600


>> If you have a bent axle you should be able to jack up the suspect side
and
>> rotate the wheel and see some axial movement in the tire.

Thanks for the common-sense advice (Gary, Azie, John). Think I'll just check
for wobble and leave well enough alone. Rear tires are wearing evenly and
both rear drums were replaced at one time.

Regarding clutch chatter, I've checked most of the things Gary mentioned at
some point. I'm about convinced it IS the linkage and have lined up a donor
bellhousing (with a hydraulic clutch setup, actually) with all the linkages.
I'll let you know if this soves the clutch chatter. Thanks.

Texican Teacher, 1970 F100 shorty w/300-six

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:06:26 -0500
From: Joe <shoman p3.net>
Subject: Need transport between Pittsburgh and Philly


Anybody on the list know how i can transport a truck and cab from the
pittsburgh
area to the philly area, and i know already drive and get it but thats
not an option
at the moment...Looking for other avenues..
Joe


------------------------------

From: "Serian" <serian mailandnews.com>
Subject: Re: The man ...
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:28:03 -0500

(and just because I am only half attentive, and sent this
from the wrong address ... a re-try !)

> is getting harder and harder for us to work on and upkeep
> our trucks without pissing off at least one of our neihbors,
> why can't people just mind their own business and stay
> out of mine.  Well thanks for letting me rant and rave.....



Heh ... build a fence around your property with this notice:
==============================================
NO TRESSPASSING

WARNING: This land is private property.  By entering
within the boundaries of this property, you hereby
agree to accept full responsibility for your own safety
and well being.  You further agree to hold the landowner
or any representative thereof blameless for any damage to
or loss of your life, limb or property, incidental or
intentional, which occur while you are within the boundaries
of this private property.  If you do not agree to these
terms, LEAVE NOW.
==============================================





------------------------------

From: "GaryBBB" <gpeters3 lni.net>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric Oxygen, Mother Nature...
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:33:50 -0800


I love it when a plan comes together :-)  You better not fool with Mother
Nature!:-)

--
Happily Retired (but broke)
Michigan Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
--

> Something the think about:  If the CO2 and temps are in fact increasing,
> then more plants will grow, and they will produce more oxygen, and
> everything will balance out again.
>
>
> George Selby


------------------------------

From: "Azie L. Magnusson" <maggie11 HiWAAY.net>
Subject: C6
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 21:29:30 -0600

George S. writes:  >>Question #2, can you make a 2wd C6 into a 4wd C6 by swapping the tailshaft
and tailhousing?  <<

Yes, but the bad part of that is the fact that to remove the tailshaft, you
must remove the front pump and two front clutch packs and part of the
reverse clutch pack and remove the snap ring that holds the tailshaft in.
A complete disassembly you might say.

I just finished rebuilding a C6 this evening, so it is still fresh on the mind.

Azie Magnusson
Ardmore, Al.


------------------------------

From: "GaryBBB" <gpeters3 lni.net>
Subject: Re: C6
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:46:48 -0800


Yeah, but at our age it will all be gone in a day or so.....:-)  I
understand that there are more than just one length of tail shaft for these,
besides the long and short I mean??  I used one that already had the adapter
on it so didn't have to fool with finding the right tail shaft or housing.
When the tail housing broke though I had to find another one and I used the
first one I found and it worked.  I wonder if these variations have to do
with the fact that the C-6 was used for so many applications, small block,
FE and big block etc.??  Perhaps it has to do with later years using the 208
transfer case?  Or is there a difference due to using the 203 case?  Wonder
if there is a book on this stuff?

--
Happily Retired (but broke)
Michigan Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
--

> I just finished rebuilding a C6 this evening, so it is still
> fresh on the mind.
>
> Azie Magnusson
> Ardmore, Al.


------------------------------

From: "Azie L. Magnusson" <maggie11 HiWAAY.net>
Subject: 460 build
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 21:52:22 -0600

Thanks to all of you who responded to my cam queries. My rebuild has
been temporarily postponed.  I'll still be building one, just not this week.

I really had a  bad day yesterday.  I tore down a 460 that I've had around
here for almost 5 years  and foound it to be terribly bad..The block is
cracked as are both heads..  I bought this engine roughly 5 years ago
in a 1976 F150 2wd that was sold to me as having a reliable drivetrain.
I drove it home (roughly 40 miles) and did not notice anything unusual
except that it would not idle. It had no mufflers on it so I couldn't really
hear anything except noise.. I junked the body after I stripped it of
the A/C, wiring, and doors.
The crank/rods/pistons all seem to be OK, so now I get to start calling
around some of my favorite "Yards" and try to find a "Core" 429 or 460.

Morale of story..  Don't buy an engine when you don't have a chance
to hear any knocks or stumbles/stalls.  Had I been more adept about
hearing the engine than the noisy exhaust, I might not have gotten into
this mess.  I still got my moneys worth out of the truck, but I was really
let down that the engine is in such poor condition after being told it was
otherwise.  It has been so long since I purchased it that I wont
mention it to the party I purchased it from. Chalk it up to experience.

Azie Magnusson
Ardmore, Al.


------------------------------

From: "Ken Schneider" <fordemail sunsetcoast.com>
Subject: Re: C6 & rear seal leaks
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:04:58 -0500


Not to mention the different yokes on the tail shaft...  my 68 drive shaft
BOLTS up to the tranny with 4 bolts if I remember correctly.. According to
the Hollander book I have, 68 only interchanges with 68.  No Splines as on
the 72 C6 I have out of a 250 Camper Special sitting in the garage.  Anyone
else have one of these odd guys?

Mine also has a rear seal leak.  The Tranny shop has replaced the seal 3
times now since rebuilding it.  It's not a constant leak either as far as I
can tell.  My guess is that the output yoke is worn down where it rubs on
the shaft, like cranks do on the timing cover seal, or there is a burr on
the shaft killing the seals, and the ding dongs didn't see it while it was
apart.  Everything was so caked up with grease before the rebuild, I don't
know if it leaked before or not since I only had the truck for a year before
having the engine and tranny rebuilt.

Incidentally, after it was rebuilt, and I put it in the truck it shifted
like crap, THEY put another modulator on, and that didn't fix it.  Ended up
THEY got a shim in the wrong place so THEY had to pull the transmission out
of the truck and put in another set of new clutches and a new valve body...
Shifts smooth now...

Do they make a sleeve to go around these like the cranks? Or do you need to
buy a new output shaft/yoke?

Thanks as always,

Ken Schneider

68 F100 Ranger 360/C6/3.25NL (in storage, Halloween - April)
88 Crown VIC 5.0/AOD


>Yeah, but at our age it will all be gone in a day or so.....:-)  I
>understand that there are more than just one length of tail shaft for
these,
>besides the long and short I mean??


------------------------------

From: "GaryBBB" <gpeters3 lni.net>
Subject: Re: 460 build
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:15:47 -0800


Don't feel too bad Azie, it could have been worse.....you could be the one
who trashed it.  I broke down one that I had parked in the mud for a few
years with a tarp on it but it still got rusted so bad I couldn't get the
pistons out without hammering them.  I used a large, blunt punch but got
carried away and didn't notice it had slipped off the webbing of the piston
and it went right through the wall.....BUMMER!  Nearly had it done too!
(  It was a darned good block too :-(  Saved the heads and a few rods etc.
though:-)  I was hammering them out the top because I couldn't get the
crank out till some of the pistons (rods) were out of the way.  I've got a
fully intact 78 sitting here I'll be looking at in a while :-)

--
Happily Retired (but broke)
Michigan Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
--

>  I really had a  bad day yesterday.  I tore down a 460 that I've
> had around
> here for almost 5 years  and foound it to be terribly bad..The block is
> cracked as are both heads..


------------------------------

From: "Ann Wasserman" <meshugga prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: The man...
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:51:00 -0800

Jason,  You think 15 vehicles are bad, wait till ya hear this list, first I'll start with the classy ones  51F100, 59 F100 4x4,64F100, 64 F250 4x4, 65 F250 4x4, 69 F250 4x4 wrecker, 85 Ford Bronco.  This one a  56GMC napco 4x4( not even retrieved yet from SD), 88 wrangler.  Then we have the foriegn 4x4's 95 tracker, 90 Samurai. Then the cars 2  67 mustang convertibles, 73 mustang convertible, 69 firebird convertible, 53 Buick Skylark convertible, 69 AMX, 1989 caravan,  Those are not even including the cars I buy to resell, they are mostly KEEPERS, except for 1or 2.  Gotta keep all my ford trucks though!  My boyfriend is a sergeant with the police dept and not very interested in vehicles, or I should say not as interested in them as I am. I bought him his own 67 mustang conv, he loves it and had it all restored but that was it, I have to drag him to swap meets.  So this fall I bought him an 1946 CJ2A, that way he would want to go to more shows and swap meets to look for  parts to restore the jeep. He just doesnt have that want for MORE VEHICLES!!   Anyway since he thinks I'm a little wacked, one day I decided to ride down the main drag in town with my 53 Ford golden Jubilee tractor, while he was doing traffic just to piss him off, but I ran out of gas right in front of him at a major intersection.  The traffic came to a halt, but everybody was cool with it they had never seen a old farm tractor in our neck of the woods.  Anyway  hope I didnt stray to far from the subject, this ford truck list is just the greatest and all you people on it are so friendly and helpful.  ANNIE
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: Jason Derra
 To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
 Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 3:01 PM
 Subject: [61-79-list] Re: The man...



 Between my neighbor and I, we have 15 vehicles between us.  As long as my
 wife doesn't complain, we have it made. :^)

 Jason
 '69 Bronco 5.0 HO EFI, NP435
 '96 F250 Ext Cab 4WD Powerstroke
 '77 F150 4WD 429
 "As fast as necessary, as slow as possible"





------------------------------

From: "Carver" <carver ncwebsurfer.com>
Subject: Junk Science, Politics, & FTE
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 21:43:37 -0800


Just to redirect this topic sorta back to Ford Trucks.
I'll get there eventually, have patience.  One of the
problems with our political system is that whichever party
is in power for the moment can choose who gets to testify
at hearings that determine laws.  Of course they choose
only the people who promote their agenda, not the truth.

Real scientists don't have an agenda, just a desire for
knowledge.  Junk scientists have an agenda first, then
search for ways to prove their case.  It is tough to
tell them apart.  Too much greed funding junk science.

We all need to get the truth back into politics, not
junk science, junk beliefs, etc.  This kind of policy
making is what leads to ordinances that allow project
trucks to be towed, goofy smog laws, and other nefarious
legislation.  Notice that I didn't single out either
party, nor any political persuasion.  They both do it,
and unfortunately, whoever is in power does it.

I don't know what the solution is, but allowing testimony
from all sides to an argument would be a great first step
in protecting older vehicles like our Ford Trucks.
(see, I got there!)

Jeff '64 F100 CrewCab

------------------------------

From: "Stephen Brown" <snoopytl1 centurytel.net>
Subject: Which engine?
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 03:15:47 -0800

Hey everyone,

     I had to leave the list for a few months due to computer problems, so I hope I'm not asking
a recently answered question.  My wife just gave me the go ahead to get a new (rebuilt) engine for
my '71 F250 . It currently has the stock 360 , but I want something bigger. I use the truck for daily
driving and an occasional burnout...or two..;-)
My question is,  Would it be worth the added cost of switching everything over to accommodate a 460
or should I build my 360 into a HP 390 ?   Would there be a noticeable difference between the two
engines during normal driving conditions?

Your expert opinions on this would be great....Thanks.

Stephen Brown

71' F250   "Baby"
68' F100  (project)
94' Ranger Supercab 4.0


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 07:37:51 -0600
From: Steve Schaefer <schaefer PLASTEKGROUP.COM>
Subject: Re: The man......


Well, that is the way it works where I am at.  When I was looking for a new trailer last year, I found a nice 24ft box trailer.  Makes for a nice portable garage.  The neighbors hate it (the big red trailer is almost always there vs. an occasional car), but not a darn thing they can do :>).  I also have a scrapped car on my flatbed trailer awaiting the scrap yards to be open on Sat.s again.  Then again, with the amount of snow around here right now, I couldn't get the trailer out if I wanted to .  I am friends with the neighbors on the garage side of the
house and the rest of them can go &*^*^(* themselves.  I am nice, I don't start any open header cars after 9:00 pm, and generally keep everything inside.

Steve S.
54 F-100
76 F-350 Crew cab
77 F-250 Supercab
79 Bronco
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Shop/8663/



> WOW, I would be in real trouble if I lived where you people live. I have cars everywhere!  In my town in NJ if you have plates on it it can stay, or if it is on a registered trailer it can stay  even if its stripped.  If you throw a tarp over it thats even better yet. Annie      PS  MY mom is the biggest complainer,  I tell her be glad I'm a slob into cars and trucks, I could be into drinking and drugs, have 3 illegitimate kids with 3 different fathers and be neat.  That seems to always shut her up!!!!!  You must make people see the positive side.  ANNIE


------------------------------

From: "David Lindenmayer" <davidl tbcnet.com>
Subject: Re: Dual battery setup
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:58:23 -0600


does  the place for the other battery have a solenoid  that the battery
cable hot goes to,like the starter solenoid  but on the fender or firewall,
if so then it is for the camper and charges when the truck is running but
not for starting the truck.  I have a 77 e350  motor home and that is the
way it is set up  hope this helps
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Whited (Tony)" <f10074 ford-trucks.com>
To: <61-79-list ford-trucks.com>; "perf-list" <perf-list ford-trucks.com>
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 8:41 PM
Subject: [61-79-list] Dual battery setup


>
> On my Super Camper Special, it has the set-up for dual battery's the
> left battery is not in it, it has the the terminals and cables, mounts
> and brackets for it I was wondering is that battery is just for the
> Camper or will it be charged and used like a 2nd battery?  Thanks
>
> --
> William (Tony) Whited
> 74 F350 Ranger XLT Super Camper Special 460
> 77 F150 Custom 460
> El Paso, TX
> Semper Fi
>
>


------------------------------

From: "GaryBBB" <gpeters3 lni.net>
Subject: Re: Which engine?
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:38:47 -0800


Well, I used to wonder how the 390's of yesteryear could spin the tires at
almost any speed but if you consider that most came with 3.90 or so gears
(standard) and had 11:1 compression and ran on very high octane fuel then
it's not so hard to see compared to modern setups that run low compression
on junk gas and tall gearing so even large engines don't seem to produce the
torque they used to.  Understanding that, be aware that building a hopped up
390 may not get you what it used to 30 years ago.  Now days more cubes seems
to be the only practical way to get the torque using junk pump gas without
going to exotic things like blowers and even then you are compromised due to
the low octane of today's fuels.  Any other approach becomes too expensive
to drive every day.

I've said before and will stand on what I said: "The cheapest horse power
you can add to your truck is a bolt in stock 460"  Yes there are other ways
to get power but not as cheaply as simply bolting in a 460.  Now, you want
more power?  Ok, build the 460 on the next budget and still not spend all
that much to make some serious power because the cubes are already there.

If, OTOH, you just want a "Little" more power then the cheapest way might
well be to rebuild the 360 into a 390.  Again, it's all in the cubes nowdays
:-)  30 cubes and mild compression increase along with the right cam might
be all you need but, again, doing the same thing to a 460 will get you a lot
more for your money but you will have to get a new tranny to do that which
may be enough to offset the costs of the 390 build up and make it the better
choice for you.

--
Happily Retired (but broke)
Michigan Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
--

> my '71 F250 . It currently has the stock 360 , but I want
> something bigger. I use the truck for daily
> driving and an occasional burnout...or two..;-)
>  My question is,  Would it be worth the added cost of switching
> everything over to accommodate a 460
> or should I build my 360 into a HP 390 ?   Would there be a
> noticeable difference between the two
> engines during normal driving conditions?


------------------------------

From: "Don Jones" <twistedhand hotmail.com>
Subject: oxygenated fuel
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:39:10


>>Just wanted to toss in a point.  I dont think seasonal means anything,
>>because it may be winter here, and all our plants are in hibernation or
>>whatever they do, but all the countries down below the equator are
>>enjoying a
nice warm summer right now, Its all balanced.

Darrell & Tweety

Seasons may not make a difference, but altitude and air temp make a
difference in the amount of oxygen in a cubic foot of air.
It may not  make much difference in a big V8 that is *reliatively* mildly
tuned, but snowmobile engines that make 3 or 4 hp per cubic inch usually
have a jetting chart  decal under the hood ( jet richer for lower altitudes
and colder temps to compensate for denser air)
There is a seat of the pants difference in performance between running  wide
open across   lake huron (600 feet above sea level) on a -30  night then
running on a +45 day  at 2000 foot altitude.

(on digest and a bit behind, as usual)
Don Jones
1970 f-250 4x4
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.hotmail.com.


------------------------------

From: "Michael Ray Jones" <mjones lcc.net>
Subject: Re: The man...
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 09:52:47 -0600

Actually Annie, it seems that, at least where I live, if you had no job, no money, 3 kids with 3 different fathers, you wouldn't have to worry about the police bothering you.  In fact, the government would be helping you.  In addition to the Lone Star Card, and monthly subsidies, you'd be eligible to go back to school, and we'd come pick you up in  a school bus and provide day care for your kids while you're there.....sheesh.

To make this official:  What's a good place to get an a/c fan motor speed switch?


From: "Ann Wasserman" <meshugga prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: The man...
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:07:19 -0800

WOW, I would be in real trouble if I lived where you people live. I have cars everywhere!  In my town in NJ if you have plates on it it can stay, or if it is on a registered trailer it can stay  even if its stripped.  If you throw a tarp over it thats even better yet. Annie      PS  MY mom is the biggest complainer,  I tell her be glad I'm a slob into cars and trucks, I could be into drinking and drugs, have 3 illegitimate kids with 3 different fathers and be neat.  That seems to always shut her up!!!!!  You must make people see the positive side.  ANNIE



------------------------------

From: "wish" <wish ford-trucks.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 17:44:27 GMT
Subject: Re: Which engine?


> Understanding that, be aware that building a hopped up
>390 may not get you what it used to 30 years ago.  Now days more cubes seems

>to be the only practical way to get the torque using junk pump gas without

>going to exotic things like blowers and even then you are compromised due to

>the low octane of today's fuels.  Any other approach becomes too expensive

>to drive every day.
>

Gee no opinions in there ...

>I've said before and will stand on what I said: "The cheapest horse power
>you can add to your truck is a bolt in stock 460"  Yes there are other ways

>to get power but not as cheaply as simply bolting in a 460.  Now, you want

>more power?  Ok, build the 460 on the next budget and still not spend all
>that much to make some serious power because the cubes are already there.
>

I'd still have to debate this if you start talkin 4x4's where the mounts and
headers and all the front accessories have to be changed, I've done the 360-390
swap and helped with a 428, we didn't have to change any of the exhaust or accessories
or wiring or any of that stuff, just plug and play ...


>If, OTOH, you just want a "Little" more power then the cheapest way might
>well be to rebuild the 360 into a 390.  Again, it's all in the cubes nowdays


Yeah because those of us with "new"  "low compression" motors are just not putting
out the stump pulling power of the "old" "high compression" motors ...

Sorry Gary, but it just ticks me off when you start generalizing this crap.
If we're really that bad off, why can a 281 cu. in. car of today kick the crap
out of a 400+ cu. in. car of yesteryear with 10 octane points less in the fuel
?  I just can't believe these generalizations ... the problem is there isn't
anything "new" for the 390 ...  no fancy fuel injection, super chargers are
expensive, things like that.  You CAN build anything to do whatever you want,
you just have to match your parts.

>more for your money but you will have to get a new tranny to do that which

>may be enough to offset the costs of the 390 build up and make it the better

>choice for you.
>

Don't forget any accessory brackets too ... and motor-mounts...

>> my '71 F250 . It currently has the stock 360 , but I want
>> something bigger. I use the truck for daily
>> driving and an occasional burnout...or two..;-)
>>  My question is,  Would it be worth the added cost of switching
>> everything over to accommodate a 460
>> or should I build my 360 into a HP 390 ?   Would there be a
>> noticeable difference between the two
>> engines during normal driving conditions?
>

During "normal" driving conditions there wouldn't likely be much noticeable
difference other than possibly on-tap power for passing, even then the right
cam can fix that problem ...

Gary, you know anyone with a G-tech pro ?  They're handy little devices for
measuring 0-60, 1/4 mile, hp, things like that ... if you can find one close,
you mind runnin off a couple 0-60 or 1/4 mile sprints on that awesome 460 of
yours and pass me those numbers ?

I'll do similar things with my truck (have once already, but will run again
with a fresh tune-up for comparison) and we'll see what we come up with ...
I really am curious about what you're putting to the ground for HP and what
sort of numbers you turn ... and I don't want to hear any griping about how
your truck's not setup for that, you always say how awesome it is with the wide
ratio C6 and the 2.75 gears for both pulling and mileage.

Of course I always have to offer an alternative comparison 'cause I've got the
390 that I worked on a couple years ago.  Same deal with Gary, he worked on
and works with 460's all the time so they're his favorite ... preaching either
as gospel is just stupid in my book, each situation will have to be considered
individually, and you'll have to look at what you want to do.  Weigh all the
options and look at things for yourself.

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4   6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 09:22:49 -0800 (PST)
From: James Oxley <joxenburger yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Which engine


wish wrote:

> >the low octane of today's fuels.  Any other
approach becomes too expensive
>
> >to drive every day.
> >
>
> Gee no opinions in there ...

Motor for motor, the more cubes, the less compression
you need to make the same power. Less compression
equals the ability to use reg gas, which is
substantially cheaper than premium and that is a huge
issue when your getting 10 MPG.

> >I've said before and will stand on what I said:
"The cheapest horse power
> >you can add to your truck is a bolt in stock 460"
Yes there are other ways

> I'd still have to debate this if you start talkin
4x4's where the mounts and
> headers and all the front accessories have to be
changed, I've done the 360-390
> swap and helped with a 428, we didn't have to change
any of the exhaust or accessories
> or wiring or any of that stuff, just plug and play
How easy is 428 stuff to find? Honestly I don't know.
I don't recall ever seeing one advertised for sale,
can get 3-4 running 460's within a couple hours
driving distance for 700$ or less. Anything less than
the 428, it's hardly a fair fight, 70 cubes is huge.


> >If, OTOH, you just want a "Little" more power then
the cheapest way might
> >well be to rebuild the 360 into a 390.  Again, it's
all in the cubes nowdays
>
> Yeah because those of us with "new"  "low
compression" motors are just not putting
> out the stump pulling power of the "old" "high
compression" motors ...
>
> Sorry Gary, but it just ticks me off when you start
generalizing this crap.
>  If we're really that bad off, why can a 281 cu. in.
car of today kick the crap
> out of a 400+ cu.

Not in torque and not at the same RPM.

> During "normal" driving conditions there wouldn't
likely be much noticeable
> difference other than possibly on-tap power for
passing, even then the right
> cam can fix that problem ...

Going from a 351m to a 400 made a huge difference to
me. Again, I'd think 70 cubes could be felt pretty
well in a heavy truck.

> Gary, you know anyone with a G-tech pro ?  They're
handy little devices for
> measuring 0-60, 1/4 mile, hp, things like that ...
if you can find one close,
> you mind runnin off a couple 0-60 or 1/4 mile
sprints on that awesome 460 of
> yours and pass me those numbers ?

Mine's a 95 460, but hardly rated as power a house
245 HP. I can't se how you could get less Hp ina 460,
honestly :-) Not exactly sure what a 95, F250, 3.55
gear, E4OD trans, ext cab, 4X4, with 8' bed, cap, 3
alum boxes, side steps, rubber mat and some tools
weighs, but my G-tech'd times are at the bottom of
this post. I'd use 1/4 mile time as I've found MPH to
read high when I used G-tech at the track.

> I'll do similar things with my truck (have once
already, but will run again
> with a fresh tune-up for comparison) and we'll see
what we come up with ...

What did it run, what does it weigh, what gear are
you running, and what is done to the motor?

> I really am curious about what you're putting to the
ground for HP and what
> sort of numbers you turn ... and I don't want to
hear any griping about how
> your truck's not setup for that, you always say how
awesome it is with the wide
> ratio C6 and the 2.75 gears for both pulling and
mileage.
>
> Of course I always have to offer an alternative
comparison 'cause I've got the
> 390 that I worked on a couple years ago.  Same deal
with Gary, he worked on
> and works with 460's all the time so they're his
favorite ... preaching either
> as gospel is just stupid in my book, each situation
will have to be considered
> individually, and you'll have to look at what you
want to do.  Weigh all the
> options and look at things for yourself.

Agree with that, probably cheapest thing to do is
convert to 390 and 390 cubes is nothing to sneeze at
:-).

                          OX


--
78 Bronco Custom, 400, T-18, 14 bolt/detroit/4.56,
D60/detroit/4.56, 44
boggers, 9" lift (27 54.5678498576476596875869
(street), 17 56 (4"
mud), never 0 (17" mud)).
79 Bronco XLT, 351M, C6, D60/detroit/4.10,
D448lug/Lokrite/4.10, 38.5
SX's, 4"lift (It's so fast, I tore the axles right out
of it).
79 Bronc XLT, 351M, C6, 35 BFG AT's, 2" lift (19.3
40, pulling boat,
19.3 40, not puling boat)
86 Capri, turbo 5.0 (13.4 107)
90 Talon AWD turbo (12.7 104)
95 F250-460,4WD (16.9 82)


__________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:30:31 -0900
From: Matthew Schumacher <schu schu.net>
Subject: Re: Which engine?


Stephen,

First of all do not buy an engine from a local parts house, they are
junk.  Find yourself a good engine builder in your area, take it to a
good machine shop, or do it yourself.

I have been in a lot of 360's and a lot of 390's and I would say that a
4bbl 390 has quite a bit more power than the 360.  With that in mind, a
390 with a nice manifold, headers, and a mild cam has a lot of low end
torque and will get fair fuel economy.  This is the route I would go
because a 460 could involve as much as a new transmission, new drive
lines, new exhaust, new cooling system, new mounting hardware, possibly
even a different alternator and pumps.  So if a fair amount more power
that bolts right is is what you want then go 390.

Now lets talk about a 460.  A 460 is still a very common block.  In
fact, if memory serves, ford used it up to 96, so finding parts for it
are very easy and even inexpensive.  For example you could get a 535HP
460 right now from ford brand new.  If you wanted to, you could also get
a 351W complete with fuel injection and a computer.  If you want all of
the modern day goodies like fuel injection, and inexpensive parts
everywhere, or if you going to be doing a lot of pulling, then go 460.

So if you really want some serious power with modern day gas, you will
likely need a modern day engine.  But in order to install that modern
engine, be prepared to make some modifications.  If you want to run an
old engine on modern day gas, it can be made to work well and it will
bolt right in, but you will never get 1960's performance out of that
engine unless you put together a high compression motor and run racing
fuel or octane boosters.

Keep in mind this is only one of many opinions.  I just don't have the
time/money/space to play the swap game, but I do recognize what a 460
could do in a old ford truck.

schu

....


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