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Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 11:46:35 -0400 (EDT)
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------------------------------------
61-79-list Digest Tue, 05 Sep 2000 Volume: 2000  Issue: 227

In This Issue:
Re: Vacuum controls
Re: My Carb Ticks!!!  No kidding!
Re: Rust issues  (Was:  Headlight Adjustment Nuts)
Re: Well, I own it!
Re: Well, I own it!
ADMIN: TDR consulting
Re: Vacuum controls
Re: My Carb Ticks!!!
Re: Rust issues  (Was:  Headlight Adjustment Nuts)
Re: ADMIN: TDR consulting
Re: Vacuum controls
Re: Clutches...
Re: ADMIN: TDR consulting
Re: Rust issues  (Was:  Headlight Adjustment Nuts)
Re: [Fwd: team logo cats]
Re: Well, I own it!
Re: '74 F250
Re: Clutches...
Re: Well, I own it!
Coolant vacuum trees
Advance
Re: Coolant vacuum trees
Re: Rust issues  (Was:  Headlight Adjustment Nut
Re: Advance

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SHill48337 aol.com
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 23:49:55 EDT
Subject: Re: Vacuum controls

In a message dated 9/5/00 11:35:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
jlagrone ford-trucks.com writes:

<< Let's see now, how can a vacuum control advance the timing? Why would you
want to? If you are hooked up straight through you are getting maximum
vacuum. You can't make more without a pump. Sign me confuse-ed. Dang, I
didn't move after all..... >>

Ford typically has used the spark port on the carb for the vacuum advance.
Therefore no vacuum at an idle, but an increasing vacuum as the throttle
opens.  Even my 1935 Ford V-8 pickup is that way.
But Hill Kennewick WA 1972 F-250 4x4 460

------------------------------

From: "JOHN    HELLDORFER" <john96mom worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: My Carb Ticks!!!  No kidding!
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 21:05:04 -0700

You write>>
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 09:44:59 -0400
From: Tony Marino <redneck raex.com>
Subject: My Carb Ticks!!!  No kidding! (thanks for the bench seat

I love these new problems!

I fired up the 300 again in my winter truck yesterday-  Everything is
hooked up and running sweet-- but I have this little problem.

The 300 is my offy 4V conversion, with dual exhaust, blah blah blah-- it's
running the same 600cfm carter carb that I took off of it about a year
ago.   I didn't run the carb on anything else since I took it off, nor did
I open it up or rebuilt it.

So I fire up this motor, and it's all happy with nice crisp response, but
it TICKS REALLY LOUD!!!!! and believe it or not, it's the carb that is
ticking!!!   I've never heard of this before, so I'm hoping somebody else
has--  The place it feels like it's ticking the most is on top right where
there are two little dime sized plates held down with torque head screws
between the primaries and secondary openings.  those little metal caps you
can feel tappin' away- and it's very loud- like a sticky lifter or so-

Any Ideas on this one?

Tony Marino
redneck raex.com <<<<

Tony, Under these plates are the metering rods!!
Small pistons connect to/hold the metering rods.
Under the pistons are springs `Rated` at/for the vacuum it takes to hold
them down under normal driving. When you `step on it` and there is less
vacuum the springs push the pistons up to the plate..aka lift the metering
rods UP.

Sounds like there may be a passage that is blocked letting the pistons float
at the top and that is what you here hitting the plate...
My guess any way......

Remove the small screws and the pistons should `pop up` for your inspection.
Both springs should be equal in length  and there should be a small `wire`
like keeper to hold the metering rod to the piston..
Shot some berrymans chemtool cleaner down in there and re assemble. DO NOT
OVER tighten the screws!!!!

There are no gaskets to worry about!!!





.
__JOHN__տ
ICQ#6030753
My Web Sites>>
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://clubs.excite.com/comm/area/pw/welcome/main.asp?cid=188005&auth=
http://www.ford-trucks.com/pictorial/big/1972_f250_2.html



------------------------------

From: "Tim and Pam Allgire" <tim-pam williams-net.com>
Subject: Re: Rust issues  (Was:  Headlight Adjustment Nuts)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 00:17:11 -0400

do you live in Ohio too   ????   I thought I lived in Salt City !!!   LOL
LOL
-----Original Message-----
From: TBeeee aol.com <TBeeee aol.com>
To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com <61-79-list ford-trucks.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 7:46 PM
Subject: [61-79-list] Rust issues (Was: Headlight Adjustment Nuts)


>Ever hear of the Salt City??  That's where I'm from and I have the rusty
>frames to prove it!
>
>Thom
>1967 F-Series Registry
>http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://hometown.aol.com/tbeeee
>
>
>> Yeah no kidding! (I'm in Minnesota, the heart of the rust belt)
>>
>=============================================================
>To  unsubscribe:   www.ford-trucks.com/mailinglist.html#item3
>Please remove this footer when replying.
>


------------------------------

From: "Tim and Pam Allgire" <tim-pam williams-net.com>
Subject: Re: Well, I own it!
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 00:22:33 -0400

are you sure that it wasn't made in Michigan  & then exported to Canada ??
I have a 78  F-150 Trailer Special  with   54,000  original miles that was
an export truck to Canada.I paid $2,500  for it a yr. ago & it had 38,000
miles on it then.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jason and Kathy <kendrick mddc.com>
To: Ford 61-79 list <61-79-list ford-trucks.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 9:31 PM
Subject: [61-79-list] Well, I own it!


>
>   Yesterday I wrote the list and said that I might be trading for another
truck. Tonight, it's mine. It's a '78 F150 Ranger Lariat Supercab with a
four barrel 460, C6, dual gas tanks, a propane conversion, and it's set up
for hauling a trailer (electric trailer brake controller). I traded a $200
motorcycle for it, and I have to throw in another $50. Not bad, huh??
Anyway, it's got a lot of small stuff that needs repaired, so it'll keep me
busy for awhile.
>  I need some help with the vin numbers, though. My Chilton's is useless.
The truck was made in Canada in March of 1978.
>X15JKBG68763 is the vin number
>139" wheelbase
>8S is the color
>X150 is the body style
>KBM is the body
>G = tranny
>13A = axle
>6050 max gvwr
>DSO 75
>
>Thanks,
>Jason Kendrick
>
>=============================================================
>To  unsubscribe:   www.ford-trucks.com/mailinglist.html#item3
>Please remove this footer when replying.
>


------------------------------

From: "Jason and Kathy" <kendrick mddc.com>
Subject: Re: Well, I own it!
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 23:27:47 -0500

According to Thom's website, it was built in Kansas City, but the vin tag on
the door says that it was made in Canada, so your guess is as good as mine.
This '78 has about 150,000 miles, and the body has some rust. By the way,
has anyone ever hauled a fairly heavy trailer with 2.75 gears and a 460/C6?
I'm interested to see how this truck will pull my 26' camper. Thanks,
Jason Kendrick

From: Tim and Pam Allgire <tim-pam williams-net.com>
> are you sure that it wasn't made in Michigan  & then exported to Canada ??



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 00:31:21 -0400
From: Ken Payne <kpayne ford-trucks.com>
Subject: ADMIN: TDR consulting

Just wanted everyone here to know that I've taken on a
temporary consulting job (3-4 months) with the Dodge
Turbo Diesel Register web site.  Don't worry, I'm not
abandoning Ford Truck Enthusiasts --- just helping a
colleague, Robert Patton.  He's in a bind because his
admin has resigned.  I'm helping him automate the site
so a non-techie can admin it.  I'll be turning the keys
over to him as soon as possible.

Ford trucks are, and will continue to be, my primary
focus.  TDR will take about a day of my time per week,
occasionally a couple of days per week.  Don't think
this means I like Dodge trucks, I'm a Ford guy to the
core!

I wanted you to hear it from me, not someone else who
might spread false rumors.  If you have any questions,
feel free to ask.

Ken Payne
Admin, Ford Truck Enthusiasts


------------------------------

From: JUMPINFORD aol.com
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 01:18:25 EDT
Subject: Re: Vacuum controls

In a message dated 9/5/00 8:04:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
jlagrone ford-trucks.com writes:


<< > This is a vacuum switch activated by higher engine coolant temperatures.
When
> the engine is running hotter (around 235 degrees), this switch allows
> manifold vacuum to the advance port on the distributor even at idle. I am
> told this will cool down a hot running engine in heavy traffic.

I'm not disagreeing with you, Rollie, but this is the first time I have ever
heard of this. I was under the impression that the vacuum switch retarded
the ignition timing during warm up to reduce emissions. ?????

-- John
>>

As I understand it, It lowers engine temp nby swithing to manifold vacuum.  Th
e switch of vacuum sources itself doesnt do the cooling, but rather the
increased engine speed, which increase fan speed, yadda yadda yadda.

Darrell & Tweety

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 22:23:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Lee <danlee_58 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: My Carb Ticks!!!

Tony,
I think the dime sized plates are the covers for the
Enrichment Rods. Those rods are pulled down into the
primary jets by manifold vacuum at low RPM. This keeps
the mixture lean enough to burn right. When the
throttle is opened manifold vacuum drops and springs
push the rods up. since the rods have a step in them
more fuel can flow through the primary jets producing
a richer mixture and more power.

If you hear a ticking noise then the rods must be
hitting the covers, which would indicate that vacuum
is fluctuating from high to low and high to low. I
would look for a vacuum leak, maybe a hose with a
crack in it, or the carb gasket itself. You could take
one of the covers off and hold your finger over the
rod, it should stay down with the engine running until
the throttle is opened.

Dan Lee
'53 F100 'Fordenstein'
400C-4V

>Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 09:44:59 -0400
>From: Tony Marino <redneck raex.com>
>Subject: My Carb Ticks!!!  No kidding! (thanks for
>the bench seat

>I love these new problems!

>I fired up the 300 again in my winter truck
yesterday->  Everything is
>hooked up and running sweet-- but I have this little
>problem.

>The 300 is my offy 4V conversion, with dual exhaust,
>blah blah blah--
>it's running the same 600cfm carter carb that I took
>off of it about a year ago.   I didn't run the carb
>on anything else since I took it off, nor did
>I open it up or rebuilt it.

>So I fire up this motor, and it's all happy with nice
>crisp response, but it TICKS REALLY LOUD!!!!! and
>believe it or not, it's the carb that is
>ticking!!!   I've never heard of this before, so I'm
>hoping somebody else has--  The place it feels like
>it's ticking the most is on top right where
>there are two little dime sized plates held down with
>torque head screws between the primaries and
>secondary openings.  those little metal caps
>you can feel tappin' away- and it's very loud- like a
>sticky lifter or so-

>Any Ideas on this one?

>Tony Marino
>redneck raex.com



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://mail.yahoo.com/

------------------------------

From: JUMPINFORD aol.com
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 01:26:32 EDT
Subject: Re: Rust issues  (Was:  Headlight Adjustment Nuts)

In a message dated 9/5/00 4:43:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, TBeeee aol.com
writes:


<< Ever hear of the Salt City??  That's where I'm from and I have the rusty
frames to prove it!

Thom
>>

Gosh I love Las Vegas, I could go out right now to any wreckin yard, and take
anything I wanted, never once needing a hot wrench or air gun.  Usually a
breaker bar will suffice, and thats for big stuff like spring bolts and
radius arm retaining nuts......

Darrell & Tweety

------------------------------

From: JUMPINFORD aol.com
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 01:31:21 EDT
Subject: Re: ADMIN: TDR consulting

In a message dated 9/5/00 9:32:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
kpayne ford-trucks.com writes:


<< Ford trucks are, and will continue to be, my primary
focus.  TDR will take about a day of my time per week,
occasionally a couple of days per week.  Don't think
this means I like Dodge trucks, I'm a Ford guy to the
core!
>>

If it helps any, Id have to buy a Dodge if I couldnt get a Ford.  Just cant
EVER see myself in a bowtie......

Darrell & Tweety

------------------------------

From: SevnD2 aol.com
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 01:57:19 EDT
Subject: Re: Vacuum controls

In a message dated 09/05/2000 2:35:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jlagrone ford-trucks.com writes:

<< A typo? Duh, you mean coolant temperature and not air temperature.
Stupidity
strikes somewhere every 5.7 seconds. Next time, I'm getting out of the way.>>

Yes, this would fall in the coolant temperature category since the original
question was concerning the vacuum switch that mounts in the thermostat
housing.

<<Don't tell the feds, but on my 79s I have bypassed these vacuum controls.
There are still lots and lots of hoses connected to them, but they all go
back to themselves. To the casual observer, everything looks OK.>>

I'm gonna tell em!

<<Let's see now, how can a vacuum control advance the timing?>>

You have a coolant temperature sensitive PVS that connects the manifold
vacuum to the distributor under hot coolant (235 degrees) conditions even at
idle. Or the other way is to allow more manifold vacuum for distributor
advance for acceleration when the coolant is cold. Depending on which setup
the vehicle has it can vary and get complicated too.

<<Why would you want to?>>

The first reason is for when an engine is hot while in traffic advancing the
timing at idle will cool the engine down. I didn't design it or say it, just
quoting books. Have seen it in action as well.

The next reason is for excelleration while cold. Advancing the timing at this
time will prevent stumble. I didn't design it or say it, just quoting books.

<< If you are hooked up straight through you are getting maximum
vacuum. You can't make more without a pump. Sign me confuse-ed. Dang, I
didn't move after all..... >>

It isn't that simple. There is a restrictor involved that bleeds down the
higher vacuum slowly that is already there from the manifold and then while
acellerating you have the ported vacuum combined with the manifold vacuum to
have more vacuum advance than normal. This is all during cold coolant
conditions.

Hope this helps.

Rollie H. Hunt

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 23:38:16 -0700
From: Tim Bowman <tkbowman uswest.net>
Subject: Re: Clutches...

Gary:

I ran into the same thing last year on my former Tempo.  I couldn't get
the relatively new clutch to release.  Changed the cable and pedal
before I broke down and pulled the transaxle and the springs fell
out....  I'd never encountered that before.

BTW, glad to see you back on the list; I appreciate your candid and
practical approach to most things.

--
Tim Bowman
Burien, WA
tkbowman uswest.net
Website: www.users.uswest.net/~tkbowman
  (Pacific NW Carshow Information & more)

Gary wrote (immaterial matter snipped):
Well, I was right in my analysis.  The springs were out of the disk and
lying in the flywheel
acting sort of like a sprague clutch preventing it from releasing all
the way.  All fixed now and
new lessons learned :-)




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 05:29:45 -0700
From: Greg <greg gregster.com>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: TDR consulting



JUMPINFORD aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 9/5/00 9:32:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> kpayne ford-trucks.com writes:
>
> << Ford trucks are, and will continue to be, my primary
> focus.  TDR will take about a day of my time per week,
> occasionally a couple of days per week.  Don't think
> this means I like Dodge trucks, I'm a Ford guy to the
> core!
>  >>
>
> If it helps any, Id have to buy a Dodge if I couldnt get a Ford.  Just cant
> EVER see myself in a bowtie......
>
> Darrell & Tweety

I had a '90 Dakota ... not a bad little truck. At 220k miles, I traded for a
'97 1500 ... a masterpiece of Sh*#. I'll push my Ford across the US b4 I'd buy
another Dog.

Gregster
'77 F-250 Explorer 4x4

>
> =============================================================
> To  unsubscribe:   www.ford-trucks.com/mailinglist.html#item3
> Please remove this footer when replying.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 05:37:19 -0700
From: Greg <greg gregster.com>
Subject: Re: Rust issues  (Was:  Headlight Adjustment Nuts)

We have a Salt City here too called the State of Maine. I have a few
specimens in the bone-yard to prove it ... lower half of cabs and spring
hangers rusted right off with only half the original size bolts remaining.
Yes, I do own a big smoke wrench!

Gregster
'77 F-250 Explorer 4x4

Tim and Pam Allgire wrote:

> do you live in Ohio too   ????   I thought I lived in Salt City !!!   LOL
> LOL
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TBeeee aol.com <TBeeee aol.com>
> To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com <61-79-list ford-trucks.com>
> Date: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 7:46 PM
> Subject: [61-79-list] Rust issues (Was: Headlight Adjustment Nuts)
>
> >Ever hear of the Salt City??  That's where I'm from and I have the rusty
> >frames to prove it!
> >
> >Thom
> >1967 F-Series Registry
> >http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://hometown.aol.com/tbeeee
> >
> >
> >> Yeah no kidding! (I'm in Minnesota, the heart of the rust belt)
> >>
> >=============================================================
> >To  unsubscribe:   www.ford-trucks.com/mailinglist.html#item3
> >Please remove this footer when replying.
> >
>
> =============================================================
> To  unsubscribe:   www.ford-trucks.com/mailinglist.html#item3
> Please remove this footer when replying.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 06:02:53 -0700
From: dave Prasse <burgess4 gte.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: team logo cats]



Negative Image wrote:
>
> whoop, da cat's going green and yellow.

I was really afraid of that !!!
Mom has a Packer lawn mower ....

dP

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 07:53:38 -0400
From: David Wadson <wadsond air.on.ca>
Subject: Re: Well, I own it!

>  I need some help with the vin numbers, though. My Chilton's is useless.
>The truck was made in Canada in March of 1978.
>X15JKBG68763 is the vin number
>139" wheelbase
>8S is the color
>X150 is the body style
>KBM is the body
>G = tranny
>13A = axle
>6050 max gvwr
>DSO 75

X15 - Basic Series (F-Series Super Cab) - F150
J - Gas Engine Code - 460-4V
K - Assembly Plant Code - Kansas City
BG68763 - Sequential Serial and Warranty Number Codes  - Can't help
you....my shop manual is for 1979

8S - Color code - Medium Blue Metallic (M) & Bright Dark Blue Metallic (S)
... if I'm reading those codes right in the chart :-)

X150 - F-150 (4x2) SuperCab with 6050 GVW

Body
K - Trim Code (Material & Seat Type) - Ranger Lariat Bench - B/Cloth and Vinyl
B - Trim Color Codes - Blue
M - Body Type Code - Styleside Pick-Up

G - Transmission Code - Automatic

13 - Axle Code (Rear) - Ford, 3750# Capacity, 2.75 Ratio
A - Not sure what that's for

75 - District Sales Office (DSO) Code - Phoenix
"The D.S.O. space will show a two-digit code number of the district which
ordered the unit. This code will appear on all units - domestic or export."


David Wadson - wadsond air.on.ca
"PS1" - 79 F100 ...ground into a million pieces.
"PS2" - 78 F100 ...currently alive and kicking.
"PS3" - 79 F150 4x4 ...now what have I gotten myself into...
Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 07:45:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Rust issues  (Was:  Headlight Adjustment
From: "John LaGrone" <jlagrone ford-trucks.com>

> Gosh I love Las Vegas, I could go out right now to any wreckin yard, and take
> anything I wanted, never once needing a hot wrench or air gun.  Usually a
> breaker bar will suffice, and thats for big stuff like spring bolts and
> radius arm retaining nuts......

That's it Darrell, rub salt in the wound.... ;-9

-- John
jlagrone ford-trucks.com     <]:-) <]:-)<]:-)<]:-)<]:-)<]:-)
1979 F150 Custom, Long Wide Bed, Regular Cab, 351M, C6 (Henry)
http://www.ford-trucks.com/jlagrone/henry.home.htm
Dearborn iron rules!!!!


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 07:50:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Vacuum controls
From: "John LaGrone" <jlagrone ford-trucks.com>

> This is all during cold coolant
> conditions.

Got you, Rollie. We are on the same page of music after all.

-- John
jlagrone ford-trucks.com     <]:-) <]:-)<]:-)<]:-)<]:-)<]:-)
1979 F150 Custom, Long Wide Bed, Regular Cab, 351M, C6 (Henry)
http://www.ford-trucks.com/jlagrone/henry.home.htm
Dearborn iron rules!!!!


------------------------------

From: "wish" <wish ford-trucks.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:03:18 GMT
Subject: Re: '74 F250



>Here is a link to some before and after pix of my '74 F-250.
>

Looks great ... if I loan you my truck for a few months would it come back like
that ?  ;)

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4   6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com

------------------------------

From: "wish" <wish ford-trucks.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:07:49 GMT
Subject: Re: Clutches...


> I can see different lengths of serpentine belt for different applications,
that's almost impossible to get around, but different widths????  Wonder how
many widths Ford uses?
>

It seems the trucks and full size cars are using 8 rib belts while the Mustang's
and other "smaller" cars are using 6 or 7 rib belts, both on 4.6L motors of
course ... so the width issue is out there ...


>Maybe it's not so much of a brand thing as a Car/Truck thing?

Could be ... though I haven't had too much problem with either one ... though
I guess Mustang's have always been just parts from other cars with a unique
body.

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4   6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com

------------------------------

From: "wish" <wish ford-trucks.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:18:01 GMT
Subject: Re: Well, I own it!



>According to Thom's website, it was built in Kansas City, but the vin tag on

>the door says that it was made in Canada, so your guess is as good as mine.

>This '78 has about 150,000 miles, and the body has some rust.

Has the door been replaced ?  Maybe by one of the same color combo to hide it,
or re-painted ... pull the panel and peek inside... my truck's about 4 different
ones as far as the body's concerned, but no one would guess it from lookin.


Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4   6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com

------------------------------

From: "Azie L. Magnusson" <maggie11 HiWAAY.net>
Subject: Coolant vacuum trees
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 08:42:16 -0500


Rollie H. writes:  >>That must be on some California models. I am
going with what would be nationwide specs except California.
Also, the other type of setup I have seen will advance the timing
at a cold start below 128 degrees. This would apply to 1978 or
newer cars and trucks. There are sure to be many different coolant
temperature PVS's out there. I only know of these for fords built in the
1970's without California emissions<<

Ever notice that there are several different colors of these things???
I just completed a rebuild of an '87 351W HO that originally came in
a F250 2WD that I junked out and used the driveline in a '77 F100.
I originally left all of the vacuum lines and emissions equipment on
and functioning.  This vehicle was sold to a friend that has since put
around 225000 miles on it, and he said to take it all off that I could,
and the engine still function, so I did. There are 3 trees on it that
distribute the vacuum, and all of them screw into the intake or the
thermostat neck.  The color has to mean something, but I have no
idea what.  I've never noticed the color on any previous engines I've
had the pleasure to fool around with.  Anyone have an explaination????
I got the engine to run good at all levels quite easily, and am using all
three of the trees, but all for very different reasons.

Azie Magnusson
Ardmore, Al.


------------------------------

From: "Azie L. Magnusson" <maggie11 HiWAAY.net>
Subject: Advance
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 08:46:44 -0500


John LaG. writes:  >>Let's see now, how can a vacuum control
advance the timing? Why would you want to? If you are hooked
up straight through you are getting maximum vacuum. You can't
make more without a pump. Sign me confuse-ed. Dang, I didn't
move after all.....<<

Didn't my '70 Merc w/429 have a dual diphram advance/retard on it.
In certain conditions the vacuum retarded the timing and in some
instances the vacuum advanced the timing????  Right???

Azie Magnusson
Ardmore, Al.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 10:17:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Advance
From: "John LaGrone" <jlagrone ford-trucks.com>

> Didn't my '70 Merc w/429 have a dual diphram advance/retard on it.
> In certain conditions the vacuum retarded the timing and in some
> instances the vacuum advanced the timing????  Right???

Azie, I don't know about your Merc, but I have had some more thoughts and
questions for chewing over.

First, the vacuum trees don't actually retard nor advance the timing. They
do change the amount of vacuum signal reaching the distributor diaphragm,
thus changing the amount of timing you would get when compared to being
hooked directly to manifold vacuum. So does less vacuum advance or retard
the timing. Seems to me it would need to advance it on acceleration, but I
know when I pull the hose during tune up (zero vacuum) I have only
mechanical advance from the weights in the distributor. And if I leave the
hose off, the engine will wind up very poorly due to retarded timing
(actually too little advance). OK, time for a definition. Does retarded
timing mean too little advance or firing before TDC? I guess if your advance
was too little, you could be both retarded and advanced at the same time?

Second, you can't get more vacuum than manifold without a pump. You can
momentarily compensate for the drop in vacuum associated with acceleration
by using a reservoir. Enter the juice can. Enter your power brake booster.

Third, what years would you say were the best performing cars overall. 30s?
40s? 50s? 60s? 70s? My guess would be postwar to pre-1967 when there were no
smog laws. The distributor diaphragm connected straight to the manifold or
to a port on the bottom of the carb. The key here is no vacuum trees. They
are a smog reduction artifact, not a performance feature.

Fourth, on a Model A, you could really adjust the timing from the driver's
seat. Does this make Ox's Bronco a Model A? Naaahhh.

-- John
jlagrone ford-trucks.com     <]:-) <]:-)<]:-)<]:-)<]:-)<]:-)
1979 F150 Custom, Long Wide Bed, Regular Cab, 351M, C6 (Henry)
http://www.ford-trucks.com/jlagrone/henry.home.htm
Dearborn iron rules!!!!


------------------------------

From: "Jason Derra" <derrar internetcds.com>
Subject: Re: Coolant vacuum trees
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 08:41:27 -0700

The colors have something to do with what temperature they function at.
Jason
'69 Bronco 5.0 HO EFI, NP435
'96 F250 Ext Cab 4WD Powerstroke E4OD

----- Original Message -----
From: "Azie L. Magnusson" <maggie11 HiWAAY.net>
To: <61-79-list ford-trucks.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 6:42 AM
Subject: [61-79-list] Coolant vacuum trees


>
> Rollie H. writes:  >>That must be on some California models. I am
> going with what would be nationwide specs except California.
> Also, the other type of setup I have seen will advance the timing
> at a cold start below 128 degrees. This would apply to 1978 or
> newer cars and trucks. There are sure to be many different coolant
> temperature PVS's out there. I only know of these for fords built in the
> 1970's without California emissions<<
>
> Ever notice that there are several different colors of these things???
> I just completed a rebuild of an '87 351W HO that originally came in
> a F250 2WD that I junked out and used the driveline in a '77 F100.
> I originally left all of the vacuum lines and emissions equipment on
> and functioning.  This vehicle was sold to a friend that has since put
> around 225000 miles on it, and he said to take it all off that I could,
> and the engine still function, so I did. There are 3 trees on it that
> distribute the vacuum, and all of them screw into the intake or the
> thermostat neck.  The color has to mean something, but I have no
> idea what.  I've never noticed the color on any previous engines I've
> had the pleasure to fool around with.  Anyone have an explaination????
> I got the engine to run good at all levels quite easily, and am using all
> three of the trees, but all for very different reasons.
>
> Azie Magnusson
> Ardmore, Al.
>
> =============================================================
> To  unsubscribe:   www.ford-trucks.com/mailinglist.html#item3
> Please remove this footer when replying.
>
>


------------------------------

From: "Hogan, Tom" <Tom.Hogan kla-tencor.com>
Subject: Re: Rust issues  (Was:  Headlight Adjustment Nut
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 09:37:11 -0700

Greg,
Where in Maine?  I'm outside Portland.  Got any good sources for used 73-79
parts?  Don't give up any secrets but I can't/haven't yet found a yard that
goes back that far.

Tom H.
76 F-150 Supercab
>
> We have a Salt City here too called the State of Maine. I have a few
> specimens in the bone-yard to prove it ... lower half of cabs
> and spring
> hangers rusted right off with only half the original size
> bolts remaining.
> Yes, I do own a big smoke wrench!
>
> Gregster
> '77 F-250 Explorer 4x4
<Snip previous posts>

------------------------------

From: "wish" <wish ford-trucks.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 15:46:32 GMT
Subject: Re: Advance

*sniff*  Is this a discussion I smell heating up, or haven't they fixed that
burned out electric motor in the stairway yet?

>> Didn't my '70 Merc w/429 have a dual diphram advance/retard on it.
>> In certain conditions the vacuum retarded the timing and in some
>> instances the vacuum advanced the timing????  Right???
>
>Azie, I don't know about your Merc, but I have had some more thoughts and
>questions for chewing over.
>

Yeah, its possible even your 428 had the dual diaphram that did this as well
...


>First, the vacuum trees don't actually retard nor advance the timing. They

>do change the amount of vacuum signal reaching the distributor diaphragm,
>thus changing the amount of timing you would get when compared to being
>hooked directly to manifold vacuum.

Correct, we also need to note when we have vaccuum ... vaccuum is at its peak
when we let off, ie closed butterflies ... open ones allow more air in and less
pull against the rest of the openings in the manifold ... ported will allow
for odd changes and is less suceptible to spiking like the manifold is when
you let off ... I've not really studied how this ported works, but I know its
different and hard to tune with :)


> So does less vacuum advance or retard
>the timing. Seems to me it would need to advance it on acceleration,

It can't, when you step on the gas (ie acceleration) you DECREASE the vaccuum
signal, hence you get the mechanical advance of the system, then when you let
off, the vaccuum "advance" will pull the plate back and retard the timing to
slow the motor down ?   So its actually a vaccuum retard isn't it (and I don't
mean to insult anyone with that phrase, this is all theory at this point) ...
thinkin out loud from various things I've heard and thought about ...


> but I
>know when I pull the hose during tune up (zero vacuum) I have only
>mechanical advance from the weights in the distributor. And if I leave the

>hose off, the engine will wind up very poorly due to retarded timing
>(actually too little advance).

Really?  Are you sure you're not using ported vaccuum ?  Don't forget to plug
the hole either, a vaccuum leak won't help things :)  Hmmm...that's interesting
though ... Lemme think about this, I"m so used to thinking of the "let off"
situation where the vaccuum spikes up and wondering what you want to do ...


lets try this line to figure it out ... the plate is spring loaded, which way
to the springs load it, advance or retard ?  (depends on which way the dist
turns and i always forget without lookin) ... so whichever the springs are doing,
the vaccuum is doing the opposite right ?

> OK, time for a definition. Does retarded
>timing mean too little advance or firing before TDC? I guess if your advance

>was too little, you could be both retarded and advanced at the same time?
>

retarded means less than you had a moment ago in this discussion.  Generally
I say its retarded or advanced based on either manuf. reccommendations or based
on what it was previously (ie manuf reccommends 6, but I run 12, my timing's
"bumped" or "advanced", situation b I was running 12, but it was pinging, so
I retarded it to 8 and it finally stopped.  My timing is still over the spec,
so its advanced, but retarded from what it was ... also the cam want's about
14deg of timing so its retarded for the cam too)

>Third, what years would you say were the best performing cars overall. 30s?

>40s? 50s? 60s? 70s? My guess would be postwar to pre-1967 when there were no

>smog laws. The distributor diaphragm connected straight to the manifold or

>to a port on the bottom of the carb. The key here is no vacuum trees. They

>are a smog reduction artifact, not a performance feature.
>

Hmmm, generally the 69's are regarded as the highest performance pinnacle I
think, but that's a very general definition, looking at specific cars you will
get variations from that, but as an overall industry high point, 69 is the general
one I've heard.  Also we should probably stick in the "Non CA emissions cars"
on that as really the only "emissions" equipment on our 69/70 cars (4 of them,
one with 2000 miles on it) is the PCV valve ... the low mileage one has A/C
so it may have the vaccuum tree as well, but our original (Mom bought it new) ....


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