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From: owner-61-79-list-digest ford-trucks.com (61-79-list-digest)
To: 61-79-list-digest ford-trucks.com
Subject: 61-79-list-digest V4 #17
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61-79-list-digest Wednesday, January 12 2000 Volume 04 : Number 017



=======================================================================
Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1961-1979 Trucks and Vans
Visit our web site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/
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=======================================================================
In this issue:

RE: FTE 61-79 - low diffs vs od
RE: : FTE 61-79 - Body mounts, a quiz :-)
FTE 61-79 - Say.....Ken, about that ford link...
FTE 61-79 - Main cap bolt
FTE 61-79 - Pigeon Forge 2000
RE: FTE 61-79 - low diffs vs od
RE: FTE 61-79 - Hydraulic throwout units
RE: FTE 61-79 - low diffs vs od
RE: FTE 61-79 - Pigeon Forge 2000
RE: FTE 61-79 - low diffs vs od
FTE 61-79 - South/Central Californians
Re: FTE 61-79 - South/Central Californians
FTE 61-79 - Gears are gears are gea...are ge....are g......
FTE 61-79 - ADMIN: New Ford SUV and SUV roll-over protection
Re: FTE 61-79 - fuel pump life
Re: FTE 61-79 - South/Central Californians
RE: FTE 61-79 - low diffs vs od
RE: FTE 61-79 - Gears are gears are gea...are ge....are g......
RE: Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - 390 engine rebuild (propane)
FTE 61-79 - poor braking
Re: Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - 390 engine rebuild (propane)
RE: FTE 61-79 - South/Central Californians
Re: Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - 390 engine rebuild (propane)
RE: FTE 61-79 - South/Central Californians
RE: FTE 61-79 -Discussions and rules for them... or not...
FTE 61-79 - FW: ford axle
FTE 61-79 - Cab to Frame Mounts

=======================================================================

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:25:25 -0500
From: "Peters, Gary (G.R.)" visteon.com>
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - low diffs vs od

Well, John, gears is gears is gears and I don't see the connection? If I
have a 4 speed auto (and GM did have one for a while in 55 for sure so I
know it can be done) and tall rear gearing so my bottom gear has a 9:1 crawl
ratio or so and my top gear has a 2.75:1 crawl ratio then I just need to
pick the gear that suits the situation. If you need to down shift on a hill
you usually have some warning so that you would never really need to go two
gears at once but I've never had any trouble with my C-6 jumping right out
of drive and into low at low speeds with the 460 except that the 460 doesn't
need to go that low normally and really "Screams" at me but it doesn't seem
to hurt the tranny :-) What difference does it make whether the gear you
downshift form is an OD or 1:1, it's just another gear??? The auto has to
use the same mechanism to shift from OD that is uses to shift from 3rd to
2nd or 2nd to 1st, they are all shifts so what does it matter what the ratio
is??

The key to the whole thing may be marketing as you say, "Over Drive" is a
magic word and god forbid they should lie about it and make a 4 speed, non
OD with tall rear gears and actually call it "OD". Feds would be on them in
a new york second.......well, the'd probably just make a new law that made
it alright as long as they called it "Over driven 4 speed" or some such
since the rear wheels would then be "over driven"......Or they could change
the whole world's thinking by calling their new, miraculous invention an
"Under Drive" since the engine would then be under driven......


- --
Michigan, Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
- --

> I thought of another possible problem with a low number diff
> and a properly
> geared tranny for a 1:1 output. If you stomp it to pass it
> wouldn't have any
> guts without dropping several gears. Dropping more than one
> gear is hard to
> do in a hydraulic system and it takes time for each shift. It
>
> My uncle always said you could scatter an auto by
> downshifting too early
>
> Besides, Overdrive is a buzz word now and most people think
> they want it.
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:52:00 -0500
From: "Peters, Gary (G.R.)" visteon.com>
Subject: RE: : FTE 61-79 - Body mounts, a quiz :-)

I honestly believe I can make them easier than find them in a yard. There
is nothing arcane, as I said, about them. You only need to fullfill one
simple task and that is holding it all together. The way a body mount works
is that the "Frame" or "standoff" is sandwiched between the two rubber
cushions with a large hole in it for the rubber to fit into and retain it's
position which insulates the bolt from the steel of the frame or standoff
and allows it to "float" between the upper limit of compression and lower
limit of droop within the range of the cushions. If the tension is correct
on the rubbers the body and bolt will move together and the bolt/sleeve will
slip up and down throught the frame or standoff, moving also inside the
rubbers and cushioned by the rubbers.

Picture a top shock mount (stud type) with rubber cushions on bottome an top
of the mount bracket and a washer under and over the cushions with a nut
securing it. Body mounts work exactly the same way and utilize all the same
principles.

To make this work properly all that is needed are the washers of the right
size and thickness and a sleeve of the correct diameter and length to allow
the proper preload on the cushions. The nuts can be welded into the bottom
washer or not but welding them eliminates one more place for wear to happen
and also allows for them to be self retaining but makes tighening them a
little harder since you then have to turn the bolt instead of the nut unless
you lube the rubber and washer with Anti-seize which you should do anyway.
All rubber mounts should be lubricated and this should be renewed
periodically, say every couple of years to keep it working at it's optimum.
This includes body mounts as well as radius arms and other cushions in the
suspension.

Large washers and ordinary water pipe can be used to make these parts and
then all that is needed is a proper sized hole in the standoff so properly
support the cushions and fit the boss on them. Since the sleeve goes
through the hole and both cushions it keeps them aligned, the boss on the
one cushion keeps the whole unit aligned with the standoff or frame. Pretty
simple realy :-)

- --
Michigan, Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
- --

> You can scrounge used ones from any scrap yard by using a
> punch with exactly
> a 1/2 OD, inserting it through the top washer and beating the
> snot out of it
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:48:58 -0600
From: ballingr bootheel.net
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Say.....Ken, about that ford link...

>Actually, I only have access to their press agent site. Dealers
also have a private site. I do however, have a few email addresses
inside of Ford but I certainly don't want to abuse the trust of
those who gave them to me. Picture this, you're a Ford employee,
and suddenly your email address gets listed as a complaint address...
with millions of Fords out there, your mailbox would soon collapse!

I will, however, ask of Mr. Masone of Ford's plans with respect to
public interaction of problems and/or suggestions on >the net.
>>>>>

If I remember this correctly, this very thing was done once on the Blue Oval
News website, when they published some very confidential information that
was released from an insider at Ford along with an e-mail address to high
ranking person there, purposefully to harass them. Ford brought suit and
crushed the website. And from my reading of the information, I think they
were perfectly justified to do so. It ws industrial espionage and
harassment clear and simple.

I'd like ask why they stopped making the best car they've made in years, the
Contour, and are now producing the Feces, oh I'm sorry , Focus. But I wont
because I'm not going to embarrass Ken. Ford truck content only, and
nothing at all about those stupid hydraulic throwout bearings I've fought
for 10 years, GRRR!

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:08:20 -0500
From: am14 daimlerchrysler.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Main cap bolt

William B. writes: >>Would anyone have a spare main bolt for a 4X4 FE that
has the stud for
bolting the pick-up to. I have one in my other engine, but I don't want to
break into it yet.<<

Sorry I do not have one, but your local FOMOCO parts Guru should have one.
I bought one form our guy just 4 years ago or so.

Azie
Ardmore, Al.

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:15:10 EST
From: SMOKEY5209 aol.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Pigeon Forge 2000

Looking for information on Pigeon Forge 2000 F100 Supernationals. Can some
one tell me who to contact, where to get tickets, etc. I have noticed that
it is to be from May 18 through the 21st. Are there events scheduled on all
the days or are the main days the 19th and 20th?
Need to make reservations.
Thanks in Advance
Ed
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:17:51 -0600
From: "William S. Hart" iastate.edu>
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - low diffs vs od

> Well, John, gears is gears is gears and I don't see the connection?

Spacing is everything Gary, if the gears aren't setup to let the motor run
where it wants then it won't do you any good, if you run a 1:1 and a steep
rear end, like a 2.73 or so with a 31" tire and then try to putz around town
at 30mph what gear will you be in ? Okay, now take that #)(*%& 460 and
unplug a couple spark plug wires ..now what gear do you need ? Somewhere
between 2 and 3 I'd imagine, not very fun if you have to do much town
driving ...

> If I
> have a 4 speed auto (and GM did have one for a while in 55 for sure so I
> know it can be done)

Hydramatic if I remember right, our 57 Olds has one, I'm not real sure
that's what you want for a truck though, it uses "fluid couplers" to
complete its shifts and only one true mechanical shift ... not to mention
they're a pain to get that mechanical shift anywhere near smooth ... but
that's a whole nuther story ..

> and tall rear gearing so my bottom gear has
> a 9:1 crawl
> ratio or so and my top gear has a 2.75:1 crawl ratio

I'm not sure anyone would call either of those a "crawl" ratio ...

> then I just need to
> pick the gear that suits the situation. If you need to down
> shift on a hill
> you usually have some warning so that you would never really need
> to go two
> gears at once but I've never had any trouble with my C-6 jumping right out
> of drive and into low at low speeds with the 460

Except that the general public doesn't want to have to shift themselves, why
else would auto's be so popular ? See below for "two gears at once"
reference ...

> What difference does it make whether the gear you
> downshift form is an OD or 1:1, it's just another gear??? The
> auto has to
> use the same mechanism to shift from OD that is uses to shift from 3rd to
> 2nd or 2nd to 1st, they are all shifts so what does it matter
> what the ratio
> is??
>

Because an OD tranny uses the same "passing gear" as the standard 3 spd,
therefore if you go for passing gear at 55 on an OD tranny its got to
downshift twice (once to 1:1 and once below that) if its a 1:1 tranny, then
you'd only need one downshift ... yes, you can force it down only one gear
from OD to 1:1, but that's not how it usually works if you really "need" to
pass someone it will drop twice (ask my Dad, he's the master at only needing
a little acceleration and getting passing gear every time, "my neck, my
neck" :)

> Feds would be
> on them in
> a new york second...


Frankly I've never understood the term New York minute, this makes even less
sense to this mid western country boy ...

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4 6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:28:05 -0500
From: "Peters, Gary (G.R.)" visteon.com>
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - Hydraulic throwout units

Whew! And I was actually thinking about going to a hydraulic unit......

- --
Michigan, Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
- --

> because I'm not going to embarrass Ken. Ford truck content only, and
> nothing at all about those stupid hydraulic throwout bearings
> I've fought
> for 10 years, GRRR!
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:06:36 -0500
From: "Peters, Gary (G.R.)" visteon.com>
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - low diffs vs od

> > Well, John, gears is gears is gears and I don't see the connection?
>
> Spacing is everything Gary, if the gears aren't setup to let

Ok, gears is still gears, so just get the correct ratios. None of these are
valid arguments because we are discussing an alternative to the OD, not
using an existing tranny to replace it and try to do the same job but a new
design using 1:1 instead of .75 for top gear. Lets all get into the same
gear here....:-)

> between 2 and 3 I'd imagine, not very fun if you have to do much town
> driving ...

All the autos I've ever driven will run happily around town in any gear they
happen to be in. At low engine rpm it simply slips so you have what ever
"gear" you need at any given time. I can actully leave my 460 in drive at
15 mph and if I don't push it too hard it will stay there even when I
accelerate yet 15 mph at a 600 rpm idle or more in top gear is not
mathmatically correct so it is obviously slipping and thus not actually
1:1.....

> Hydramatic if I remember right, our 57 Olds has one, I'm not real sure
> that's what you want for a truck though, it uses "fluid couplers" to
> complete its shifts and only one true mechanical shift ...

So.....make it like a regular auto and put 4 gears in it, what's the
problem?

> I'm not sure anyone would call either of those a "crawl" ratio ...

Ok, how about over all ratio or final ratio?

> > pick the gear that suits the situation. If you need to down
> > shift on a hill
>
> Except that the general public doesn't want to have to shift
> themselves, why

Remeber we're still talking autos....auto shift?

> > What difference does it make whether the gear you
> > downshift form is an OD or 1:1, it's just another gear??? The
>
> Because an OD tranny uses the same "passing gear" as the
> standard 3 spd,
> therefore if you go for passing gear at 55 on an OD tranny its got to
> downshift twice (once to 1:1 and once below that) if its a

All of my OD's first attempt to get the job done in drive and then go to
second as needed which is what a simple 4 speed would do if properly
designed. If you are going slow enough with a C-6 it will jump right from
drive to low, I do it all the time. There is a lurch when it passes through
second but then we are screaming in low so again, what's the big deal? This
is exactly the response you get with an OD if you punch it at too high a
speed for second gear, it will shift allright (so much for computer control,
eh?) but scream in the process so what difference does it make whether it
screams in second with a 4 speed or with an OD (which, after all is still a
4 speed) ???? The overall gearing in each gear will be exactly the same,
the engine rpm at a given speed in a given gear will be "EXACTLY" the same
so where is the argument?

The stupid truck couldn't care less how you get the overall gearing at any
given moment, it only sees the "over all gearing" not some number or combo
or whatever. The engine rpm will be exactly the same at any given road
speed with 2.75:1 over all gearing whether it is in OD or top gear.

> Frankly I've never understood the term New York minute, this
> makes even less
> sense to this mid western country boy ...

Ever been to New York? My brother lived there for 3 years, near Manhatten,
in the Bronx and some of the streets he had to cross were so wide you
couln't walk across before the light changed....everyone in New York is a
Mad Hatter, running here and there, never getting everything done and always
late so when you say "Just a minute..." in New York your listeners are
thinking "Just a millisecond"........

- --
Michigan, Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
- --
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:15:29 -0500
From: "Peters, Gary (G.R.)" visteon.com>
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - Pigeon Forge 2000

Take a look at this site:

http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.pigeon-forge.tn.us/hot-mot.html

We are going to attempt to make a deal like we did last year but having a
little trouble getting some necessary info to begin our search so we may be
able to get some better rates as a group if we can get it done.....that's
the rub of course....:-(

There are some events going on all the time but the final awards are on
Saturday if I recall in the convention center. There are little parties
going on all over and various events in the convention center as well in the
auditorium. Not sure when they actually print the schedule but it should be
available if you contact the number they give you for the event promoters.

- --
Michigan, Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
- --
>
> Looking for information on Pigeon Forge 2000 F100
> Supernationals. Can some
> one tell me who to contact, where to get tickets, etc. I
> have noticed that
> it is to be from May 18 through the 21st. Are there events
> scheduled on all
> the days or are the main days the 19th and 20th?
> Need to make reservations.
> Thanks in Advance
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:52:29 -0600
From: "William S. Hart" iastate.edu>
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - low diffs vs od

> > between 2 and 3 I'd imagine, not very fun if you have to do much town
> > driving ...
>
> All the autos I've ever driven will run happily around town in
> any gear they
> happen to be in.

That's a pretty broad statement ... I've found that our 3.8 V6 Olds hated
40mph as it didn't know whether to use 3 or 4 ... our Tempo doesn't really
care for 10-15 as its a 1-2 shift in there somewhere for it ... I have yet
to find a vehicle that didn't hit a shift point at some situation I usually
end up in (parking lot cruising for spaces, pulling a small incline through
town, highway passing) ... there is no way to possibly get the exact gearing
for every situation, no matter how good it looks on paper ...

> At low engine rpm it simply slips so you have what ever
> "gear" you need at any given time. I can actully leave my 460 in drive at
> 15 mph and if I don't push it too hard it will stay there even when I
> accelerate yet 15 mph at a 600 rpm idle or more in top gear is not
> mathmatically correct so it is obviously slipping and thus not actually
> 1:1.....
>

Heck, lets just ditch all the gears and just go back to the Dynaflo, it was
an infinitely adjustable tranny, we can just all live with 0-60 times of
15seconds or so, it'll be better for everyone involved ...

> > Hydramatic if I remember right, our 57 Olds has one, I'm not real sure
> > that's what you want for a truck though, it uses "fluid couplers" to
> > complete its shifts and only one true mechanical shift ...
>
> So.....make it like a regular auto and put 4 gears in it, what's the
> problem?

Sure, lets just rip the guts out and make it a regular 4speed, that'll go
over well, and I'm sure there's a kit that will just 'bolt in' so it will
suddenly be the ultimate and some shiney halo will show up around the car
and everyone will bow and worship the awesome tranny .... my point was just
cause its been done doesn't mean it was done efficiently or "correctly" for
the application ... there are 5speed auto's out there too, if more's better
this should be the way to go then huh ... heck lets bolt 5 or six of these
things together, if we get enough gears we oughtta have the right one
eventually ...

> > > pick the gear that suits the situation. If you need to down
> > > shift on a hill
> >
> > Except that the general public doesn't want to have to shift
> > themselves, why
>
> Remeber we're still talking autos....auto shift?
>

Didn't you say to pick the gear, you didn't say the tranny was pickin the
gear ...

> > > What difference does it make whether the gear you
> > > downshift form is an OD or 1:1, it's just another gear??? The
> >
> > Because an OD tranny uses the same "passing gear" as the
> > standard 3 spd,
> > therefore if you go for passing gear at 55 on an OD tranny its got to
> > downshift twice (once to 1:1 and once below that) if its a
>
> All of my OD's first attempt to get the job done in drive

DRIVE IS NOT A GEAR! Drive is the selector position where it goes through
all the gears, if you mean 1:1 when you say drive, then fine ... but Drive
position is not A gear.

> and then go to
> second as needed which is what a simple 4 speed would do if properly
> designed. If you are going slow enough with a C-6 it will jump right from
> drive to low, I do it all the time.

You must have to mash that pedal 'cause mine doesn't do that that I've
noticed, heck mine rarely sees low these days, I'm about to check and see if
the linkage can be tightened a bit to engage it more quickly, it does start
at low from a stop, but that's about it, as long as I'm rolling after that
its usually 2nd, 'course I have this thing against flooring it immediately
after a corner too, that thing is that I don't like to rearend the guy in
front of me .

> There is a lurch when it
> passes through
> second but then we are screaming in low so again, what's the big
> deal?

Hmmm...screaming low? so like a WOT position or something ?

> This
> is exactly the response you get with an OD if you punch it at too high a
> speed for second gear, it will shift allright (so much for
> computer control,
> eh?) but scream in the process so what difference does it make whether it
> screams in second with a 4 speed or with an OD (which, after all
> is still a
> 4 speed) ???? The overall gearing in each gear will be exactly the same,
> the engine rpm at a given speed in a given gear will be "EXACTLY" the same
> so where is the argument?
>

I love the way you can throw all these terms around without distinguishing
between them, a 4speed is not an overdrive, an overdrive tranny may have 4
gears, yes, but its difference from a 4speed is defined by the non 1:1 final
drive ratio, at least that's always been my understanding of it. You are
probably correct in that you could get each gear to match up closely, though
only if starting with a new tranny design and what not, remember otherwise
you are still restricted by time, space, and budget to doing this stuff ...
look at your own truck, you love the 460 and the wide ratio C6 ... why the
wide ratio ? 'cause you don't think low is enough on the standard ratio
...why didn't you just build a new tranny and put a 4th gear on the under
drive side of things ? 'cause your budget and tools wouldn't let you ...
most of the time everyone has to deal with stuff like this, even big
corporations ... there are many more things involved here too than just
which gears work best ... also remember you can only get gears so small that
still transfer power without shattering ... EVERY gear ratio is not an
option either ... running a 1:1 rear gear would put so much stress on the
low gear of a tranny due to the torque required that you'd just eat the
gears up. Not to mention the drive shafts .. heck the lightning with 4.10
gears and an E4OD had to have an aluminum drive shaft from the factory
'cause the tires were getting too much grip on hard launches and would snap
the factory driveshaft ...

But of course the engineers are smart, they can figure something out, then
you can cuss them later for using a material that didn't hold up like it was
predicted, or that is a bear to work on, or expensive 'cause they simplified
your tranny for you but had to use space age materials to transfer the
weight ... yeah that's right they can do everything, they're SUPER
ENGINEERS.

> The stupid truck couldn't care less how you get the overall gearing at any
> given moment, it only sees the "over all gearing" not some number or combo
> or whatever. The engine rpm will be exactly the same at any given road
> speed with 2.75:1 over all gearing whether it is in OD or top gear.
>

You've changed your frame of reference ... heck if I took the Earth as my
frame of reference the truck wouldn't even be worth my time to mess with ...
this whole thing started with tranny/rearend comparo's ... which of course
go right out the door on a front wheel drive 'cause they don't run a
differential like we do ... or they can't change it as easily I should say
...

> > Frankly I've never understood the term New York minute, this
> > makes even less
> > sense to this mid western country boy ...
>
> Ever been to New York?

Nope, and if I'm lucky I can keep it that way. Chicago was bad enough for
me.

> everyone in New York is a
> Mad Hatter, running here and there, never getting everything done
> and always
> late

Yup, sounds typical to me ...


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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:55:16 -0500
From: j arnold ford-trucks.com>
Subject: FTE 61-79 - South/Central Californians

Would appreciate some help in locating an older Ford F series truck in
California. We've been on the list a long time and heard from quite a few
of yawl from that way so, thought I would start here.
My son, Bud, joined Marine Corps last summer and after all training is now
stationed at 'Twenty-Nine Palms' (just south of Barstow, in desert). Now
that he is permanent (Marine? permanent? HA!), he is in need of
transportation. Which puts me in tough position. Put enough money into one
of six F series trucks we currently have, '57 through '84, so that 1.) is
California leagal 2.) I can drive safely across country (Kentucky to
California), 3.) Give him dependable, CHEAP transportation (L/Cpl in
Marines does NOT get rich). Other option is buy truck #7, already in
California, legal, and I don't have to drive out there and fly back.
Would appreciate hearing from anyone out that way that knows of a good,
dependable truck he can buy. His ceiling is around $2500 that's about as
far as "Mom's Finance Co." is willing to go. He's grown up driving and
working on these trucks, so he's no stranger to them.
For the Off-Road crowd, his 'job' is driving some kind of 8 wheel recon
vehicle he says can go places "Hummers" avoid, so, He's having a ball.
Appreciate hearing from anyone, Thanks in advance.


stoney

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:33:41 -0700
From: William Whited ford-trucks.com>
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - South/Central Californians

Well with him being in 29 Stumps he doesn't have to worry about a paint job, the sand
storms out there will take care of that for him. So you may be able to save a little
money there. What a LCpl not getting rich, according to Congress they give us too
much money anyway. But that is another story. I know the Stumps is out in the middle
of nowhere you maybe able to find something in San Bernadino county or in Palm Springs
it is not that far. Also of note it gets extremely hot out there and there are allot
of open spaces between gas stops so make sure it is running well and cool. Good luck
in your search and the best of luck to your son and his LAV's.

William Whited
74 F100 Ranger Supercab 390
77 F150 Custom 460
El Paso, TX
Semper Fi

j arnold wrote:

> Would appreciate some help in locating an older Ford F series truck in
> California. We've been on the list a long time and heard from quite a few
> of yawl from that way so, thought I would start here.
> My son, Bud, joined Marine Corps last summer and after all training is now
> stationed at 'Twenty-Nine Palms' (just south of Barstow, in desert). Now
> that he is permanent (Marine? permanent? HA!), he is in need of
> transportation. Which puts me in tough position. Put enough money into one
> of six F series trucks we currently have, '57 through '84, so that 1.) is
> California leagal 2.) I can drive safely across country (Kentucky to
> California), 3.) Give him dependable, CHEAP transportation (L/Cpl in
> Marines does NOT get rich). Other option is buy truck #7, already in
> California, legal, and I don't have to drive out there and fly back.
> Would appreciate hearing from anyone out that way that knows of a good,
> dependable truck he can buy. His ceiling is around $2500 that's about as
> far as "Mom's Finance Co." is willing to go. He's grown up driving and
> working on these trucks, so he's no stranger to them.
> For the Off-Road crowd, his 'job' is driving some kind of 8 wheel recon
> vehicle he says can go places "Hummers" avoid, so, He's having a ball.
> Appreciate hearing from anyone, Thanks in advance.
>
> stoney
>
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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:38:15 -0500
From: "Peters, Gary (G.R.)" visteon.com>
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Gears are gears are gea...are ge....are g......

Ok, got excel loaded so here goes, vehicle moving at 15 mph, 31" tires and
"assuming" no slip in all cases:

4 spd-Top gear 1:1 2.75 rear 456 rpm Over all
ratio: 2.75
OD-OD, .75:1 3.67 rear 456 rpm Over all
ratio: 2.75

4 spd-Low gear 3:1 2.75 rear 1368 rpm Over all
ratio: 8.250
OD-Low gear 2.248:1 3.67 rear 1368 rpm Over all
ratio: 8.250

4 spd-3rd gear 1.333:1 2.75 rear 609 rpm Over all
ratio: 3.67
OD-drive gear 1:1 3.67 rear 609 rpm Over all
ratio: 3.67

Now allow a little slip which you will get at lower speeds and splain to me
why virtually any engine could not sustain these speeds quite happily
attached to an auto, regardless of gearing and what gear it is in??? Keep
in mind that even on a Holy Moly electronic controlled auto OD the converter
will not be locked at these speeds. Fred Flintstone could keep a truck
moving at these speeds without straining himself. If you need a different
gear then tune the tranny to put it there when you need it. For god's sake,
how difficult can it be??? If you never leave town and speeds in town are
always 35 mph then you don't need an OD in the first place but if you drive
like most poeple, on the highway more than in the city then either one,
properly designed would get the job done with precisely the same over all
gearing in each gear but the transmission gears rations themselves would, of
course, be different in each case.

As you can see the OD tranny gets it's over all ratio using different gears
but in each gear the "over all" ratio works out the same and the ignorant
engine has no clue where you got these numbers and it really doesn't care
either. As long as the numbers are the same it will respond "EXACTLY" the
same in ALL cases regardless ( or irregardless) and so will the truck it's
in.

The whole discussion is centered around the argument that an OD has running
gears which use up HP and wear at an accellerated rate where the 1:1 has
neither problem so why did they use the OD instead of 1:1??

As you can easily see from the math there is no mathmatical, gear related
reason for this but there are several technical reasons which may or may not
make sense depending on what side of the fence you are on and the most
likely reason which drives virtually all decisions made on the planet is
economic. Use a current design, add another gear and hope it lasts long
enough to get out of warantee.

You can nit pick this gear issue and take things out of context all you want
but if you keep the argument sane, in context and use the "same" criteria
for each side of the argument then this is the bottom line and there simply
aint no more to it, it's very simple math GEARS IS GEARS IS GEARS !

- --
Michigan, Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
- --

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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:54:24 -0500
From: Ken Payne ford-trucks.com>
Subject: FTE 61-79 - ADMIN: New Ford SUV and SUV roll-over protection

Check out the Ford press releases on the web site for the
new Ford Escape SUV and the new SUV roll-over protection
system Ford is introduction. You'll see the links on
the sites "What's New" heading the main page.

Ken Payne
Admin, Ford Truck Enthusiasts

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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:18:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Lee yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - fuel pump life

If gasoline sits for any length of time oxidation
occurs. Most gasolines contain antioxidizers to
prevent this from happening in the time between
formulation and normal use. When gasoline oxidizes it
forms varnish. An excess amount of varnish will clog
fuel injectors and even carburators. Most gasolines
today contain additives to keep injectors clean.

Most fuel system cleaners contain Xylene. The purpose
of Xylene is to dissolve any varnish present, however
Xylene will also dissolve rubber seals. Small amounts
in added to gasoline probably will not do much damage.
Since the gasoline already contains additives to
dissolve varnish, why use another product?

Alcohols are Methanol (CH3OH) or Ethanol (CH5OH).
These are both oxygen bearing compounds and can
promote oxidation of metals and rubber parts. Aluminum
is quite suseptible to oxidation. Rubber parts become
hard and
brittle and no longer seal properly.

I cannot begin to tell you how many cans of STP fuel
treatment or tankfuls of Ethanol gasoline it would
take before these effects occur, but I would rather
not use these products. Gasoline already contains more
additives than I want.

Dan Lee
'53 F100
400C-4V
>
>
>Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:07:13 -0700
>From: "Kiernan, Denny" wenet.net>
> Subject: Re:
>
>John LaGrone wrote:
>
>> Bill's right. The pump I just replaced on Henry was
the original making it 20+ years old. If run lots of
STP gas treatment and B12 Chemtool through it over the
years.
>
I've never used STP or B12 Chemtool. I dont even know
>exactly what they're supposed to do. How widely used
are they by the members of this list? And are they
only for special set-ups, or for everybody?
>
Denny
'72 F-100 360 2WD Manual everything, 140K
>
>
>Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:37:40 -0600
>From: "John LaGrone" ford-trucks.com>
>Subject: FTE 61-79 - fuel pumps by Methusalah
>
>>>Anyway that's my rant, for more info on the ethanol
>thing see http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.ethanol.org/ethanol_racing.html
>And its not just 'cause I'm in Iowa!<<
>
>Sure it is!!! I don't have a problem with alcohol in
>fuel and I don't think it will effect the life of
your >fuel pump to use it which is what I meant to
>be conveying in my original post. I have burned
>ethanol
>blend when visiting states where it is available and
>it was OK.
>
>>>>Especially Ethanol.....:-) Blind and wrapped
>around a tree.....<<
>
>If you drink denatured alcohol (ethanol), one of the
>side effects is blindness. Next is death.
>
>>The story I heard about ethanol is that the alcohol
>attacks the heavy metals in the carb, copper, tin
>(I'll catch it for this), lead, zink etc. found in
>brass and bronze parts so a different material is
>needed for jets, needles and seats etc...Never heard
>anything about rubber parts being affected:-)<<
>
>I've heard that ethanol destroys rubber parts in the
>fuel system due to its similarities to water. I have
>no actual experience to refute or support this
>claim.
>
> - -- John

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://im.yahoo.com
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 12:17:49 -0500
From: j arnold ford-trucks.com>
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - South/Central Californians

At 09:33 AM 1/12/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Well with him being in 29 Stumps he doesn't have to worry about a paint
job, the sand
>storms out there will take care of that for him.
>
>William Whited
>74 F100 Ranger Supercab 390
>77 F150 Custom 460
>El Paso, TX
>Semper Fi
>
Know exactly what you mean.

stoney

a.k.a.
Arnold, J.W.
Maj, USMC, ret.

MOS:0302

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 12:29:14 -0500
From: "Peters, Gary (G.R.)" visteon.com>
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - low diffs vs od

There were several arguments thrown out in this discussion and one of them
centered around the idea of rear gears combined with trany gears giving the
same over all ratio but different results. My argument is that this is
simply not true.

An OD is a four speed transmission any way you look at it so I don't give
#$##% # what anyone calls it, it still has 4 gears and 4 speeds that I can
design for the purpose at hand JUST as I can with a "four speed" which is
not an OD.

Is this an english class or a truck list? We all use terms that describe
our point. Not being college educated engineers most of us do not use the
Holy Term for things but we still get the point across. If we all look at
the point the poster is attempting to make instead of what color socks he
happens to be wearing or what finger he uses to type an "A" the discussions
would reach a constructive conclusion much sooner with less wasted
semantics.

Please do not add to what I say or try to read between the lines. This
discussion has gone way beyond anything anyone really had in mind initially
so I am bowing out now. I really have much more important things on my mind
than trying to get all the words right :-(

- --
Michigan, Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
- --

> I love the way you can throw all these terms around without
> distinguishing
> between them, a 4speed is not an overdrive, an overdrive
> tranny may have 4
> gears, yes, but its difference from a 4speed is defined by
> the non 1:1 final
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:41:44 -0600
From: "William S. Hart" iastate.edu>
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - Gears are gears are gea...are ge....are g......

> You can nit pick this gear issue and take things out of context
> all you want
> but if you keep the argument sane, in context and use the "same" criteria
> for each side of the argument then this is the bottom line and
> there simply
> aint no more to it, it's very simple math GEARS IS GEARS IS GEARS !
>

Gary, this whole thing started when you asked why they used an OD instead of
a 1:1, its quite apparent now through my vain attempts to show you
situations where it might be just as advantageous to run an OD and 1:1 that
you have no desire to even begin to understand where I'm coming from on this
stuff. You have systematically gone from a blanket "why do they use OD?"
statement to "OD won't work in my truck any better than what I have" ...
whether or not its true is not the issue, the point is that there are other
factors besides the final drive ratio that are taken into account when the
overall package is considered.

There are also as many different driving styles as there are people driving,
just because you're happy with your vehicle stock doesn't mean I'll be able
to stand it at all as I have different expectations.

While I'm on this somewhat personal note, I would really like to see some
more imagination in posts than "my 460 with wide ratio C6 with 2.75 gears is
the ultimate truck" when its quite obvious that what I have already is
overkill and may not be the truck for others on the list who don't need that
much power or gear.

I'm sure I've completely offended you and several others on this list, but I
have tried to say before and I'll say again, there isn't one be all end all
answer for a vehicle no matter how much you want it to be true, there are
simply too many types of people and jobs to be done to let it all fall to
one vehicle. You need to consider each person and their goals with the
vehicle before saying that you know what their ultimate solution is, for
some its a 6cyl 3 on the tree that is just used for cruising around and the
occasional trip to the dump ... for others, we like fire breathing FE's that
we drive daily to and from work, while still others want something in the
middle or a good compromise of mileage and power, all of which is subjective
based on the person, just 'cause Tony loves his 6 doesn't mean I have to
love it, but I can at least be happy for him that he found what he likes.

I see you've posted a "bow out" while I was typing this, so conitinuing is
probably pointless, but nomenclature is so important when describing these
things because people do get the wrong ideas when an incorrect term is used,
that's why I'm a stickler for it some times, I've worked at a parts store, I
know what happens when someone asks for a starter solenoid and means the
gear, or any number of other misnomers that are out there.

Well this has gotten lengthy enough, and if its enough to get me kicked off
the list, then I imagine I've already gotten there.

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4 6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:52:18 -0800
From: "Hogan, Tom" kla-tencor.com>
Subject: RE: Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - 390 engine rebuild (propane)


> The air being drawn through the propane mixer pulls the
> propane vapor from
> the converter
> through the mixer and into the intake system. the valve and
> spring assembly
> in the converter
> is so sensitive their is no need for power valves and
> accelerator pumps
> (except for one model of propane mixer).

Ok next question. Is there a system out there that can meter the liqid
propane directly to the intake tract and allow the liquid to gas conversion
there? This would give the advantage of super cooling the intake charge and
put a denser mixture into the cylinders. I'm sure it would be difficult to
meter the liquid properly and there may be a problem with icing in the
intake tract. The reason I ask is my experience with propane motors is in
ag tractors. All of them had a vapor valve and a liquid valve. The
difference in the valves was the vapor valve vented gas off the top of the
tank and the liquid valve tapped off the bottom. Procedure was to start on
the vapor and then switch over when the tractor was at operating temp.

Tom H.
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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 02:23:32 -0500
From: chris koran bellatlantic.net>
Subject: FTE 61-79 - poor braking

i got a problem with the brakes on my truck. i have torn apart the
front discs - turned the rotors and replaced the pads. the rears were
torn apart but were in fairly good shape. i have just recently acquired
the truck and haven't been able to find the problem. i bled the brakes
completely front to back. the booster is working (when i disconnect the
vacuum, i have 'no' brakes at all) but i don't know if they have a
tendency to weaken internally after many years. maybe one of you out
there have a good idea i could use. oh yeah, thanks to Rob Bowen for
the idea on the glovebox. i didn't use the post office box, but found a
suitable sub from a large piece of straight sheet plastic siding. the
idea worked great. i went one step further and used 3M spray-on rubber
floor matting on the bottom of the box to keep scrounge nuts and bolts
and loose change from rattling. keep them coming. i appreciate any
ideas on the brake problem.

quadna bellatlantic.net
79 F-250 4WD Regular Cab 300 w/4 speed

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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:01:12 -0800
From: John Lord home.com>
Subject: Re: Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - 390 engine rebuild (propane)

Something i forgot to mention that is important in regards to linkage.
on some types of mixers made for duel fuel tha thave a cone assembly on the top
their is a cable (linkage) to open the cone all the way to allow proper airflow
when the system is running on gasoline.

John Lord wrote:

> You are correct.
> In a gasoline carb, as you open the butterflies the effect of the venturi
> draws gasoline into the intake system. the rest of the carb simply meters
> the amount, mixture
> and adds more during times of hard acceleration or low vacum.
>
> The air being drawn through the propane mixer pulls the propane vapor from
> the converter
> through the mixer and into the intake system. the valve and spring assembly
> in the converter
> is so sensitive their is no need for power valves and accelerator pumps
> (except for one model of propane mixer).
> The type mentioned with the open ring is the most effective at this, the
> other 2 popular brands have a tapered cone
> in the top of the mixer that raises based on the amount of vacum inside the
> venturi area. it helps to meter the flow of
> propane by controlling the vacum that draws the propane vapor.
>
> At some point when i can find use of a scanner i will find a place to post
> all the diagrams and design and instalation
> information that i have. I will also add performance tips and comments as to
> maximum cfm of certain brands and
> installation tips for turbo's and dual mixers (same as 2 4bbl carbs) till
> then anyone is welcome to ask me questions
> either through the list or directly.
>
> Jamie wrote:
>
> > Tom, very good question. I'm sorry, I'm a real rookie at this and
> > haven't been able to figure it out!! There doesn't appear to be any
> > kind of direct mechanical connection between the throttle linkage and
> > the propane system. All I can guess is that it has something to do with
> > different vaccuum/pressure levels as a result of the carb butterflies in
> > different positions and these pressure differentials "pulling" more or
> > less propane.
>
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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:31:32 -0800
From: "Hogan, Tom" kla-tencor.com>
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - South/Central Californians

You should be able to locate something out there in CA. But if you can't my
recommendation would be to go with a pre 73 vehicle. Those don't get
inspected anymore. There is however that 1 time $300 'environmental impact'
fee for out of state vehicles coming into CA. Try checking on the web there
are some good nation wide used car sites. Also check the FTE classifieds.

Tom H

> -----Original Message-----
> From: j arnold [mailto:stoney ford-trucks.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 7:55 AM
> To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: FTE 61-79 - South/Central Californians
>
>
> Would appreciate some help in locating an older Ford F
> series truck in
> California. We've been on the list a long time and heard from
> quite a few
> of yawl from that way so, thought I would start here.
> My son, Bud, joined Marine Corps last summer and after
> all training is now
> stationed at 'Twenty-Nine Palms' (just south of Barstow, in
> desert). Now
> that he is permanent (Marine? permanent? HA!), he is in need of
> transportation. Which puts me in tough position. Put enough
> money into one
> of six F series trucks we currently have, '57 through '84, so
> that 1.) is
> California leagal 2.) I can drive safely across country (Kentucky to
> California), 3.) Give him dependable, CHEAP transportation (L/Cpl in
> Marines does NOT get rich). Other option is buy truck #7, already in
> California, legal, and I don't have to drive out there and fly back.
> Would appreciate hearing from anyone out that way that
> knows of a good,
> dependable truck he can buy. His ceiling is around $2500
> that's about as
> far as "Mom's Finance Co." is willing to go. He's grown up driving and
> working on these trucks, so he's no stranger to them.
> For the Off-Road crowd, his 'job' is driving some kind
> of 8 wheel recon
> vehicle he says can go places "Hummers" avoid, so, He's having a ball.
> Appreciate hearing from anyone, Thanks in advance.
>
>
> stoney
>
> == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info
> http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
>
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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:40:16 -0800
From: John Lord home.com>
Subject: Re: Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - 390 engine rebuild (propane)

I am afraid their is nothing like that for automotive use, are you sure you have
it the right way around i would expect that it would start with a shot of liquid
propane and then run on vapor.
Allowing liquid propane into the system would be a bit dangerous as it is 40
times more dense as a liguid compared to it's gassious state. Most Automotive
propane tanks will allow propane to be removed as a liquid (for the engine) and
from higher in the tank as a gas for motorhome use (for a stove).

Because propane is already a vapor by the time it hit's your intake system there
is no need to heat the intake charge ot to warm the carb to prevent it from
icing. This helps to get a denser mixture.

With V-8 engines the exaust cross over passage (the passage in the intake
between the 2 center cylinder exaust ports) is plugged either with a modified
intake manifold gasket or i personally have the heads machined to accept a plug
that is tapped into place. (If your state allows you should also remove the egr
system). I also remove any aluminum carb spacer and replace it with a plastic
one.
With I-6 engines the intake and exaust manifold are bolted together, they must
be
seperated and any open ports pluged.

In all cases you use a 160 deg thermostat. propane runs better colder, this too
helps with a denser mixture. Also if you are using the factory intake system and
running propane only you remove the hot air bypass system (heat riser) from your
air intake system on the air cleaner.

The problem with the above items is that they will work great with propane only
but will cause problems when running duel fuel. These tips will cause the carb
to ice up in the morning.

You will always find that propane is a little harder to start especally the
first time in the morning. The hose or pipe between the mixer and converter has
to fill with propane vapor in the morning. their are devices that can be
purchased to help. one will give a small shot of liquid propane from the
converter to the mixer through a seperate hose. the other will cause the valve
assembly to open in the vapor side of the converter. both of these pust be
operated by a push button on the dash.
Also propane systems do not require a choke on cold mornings, the system will
always start, but it runns a bit rough for the first 5 min's. My solution was to
add a solonoid that you find on carb's from a car with air conditioning. I use a
toggle switch to controll it, and i find it helpfull in the mornings for the
first 5 min's and it make for a great fast idle when jump starting or using a
winch.

In all cases i recomend that everyone sticks to an air intake system that pulls
cold air in from outside the engine compartment. there is usally a 10%
difference in air density between the hot and cold air on an average day.


"Hogan, Tom" wrote:

>
> > The air being drawn through the propane mixer pulls the
> > propane vapor from
> > the converter
> > through the mixer and into the intake system. the valve and
> > spring assembly
> > in the converter
> > is so sensitive their is no need for power valves and
> > accelerator pumps
> > (except for one model of propane mixer).
>
> Ok next question. Is there a system out there that can meter the liqid
> propane directly to the intake tract and allow the liquid to gas conversion
> there? This would give the advantage of super cooling the intake charge and
> put a denser mixture into the cylinders. I'm sure it would be difficult to
> meter the liquid properly and there may be a problem with icing in the
> intake tract. The reason I ask is my experience with propane motors is in
> ag tractors. All of them had a vapor valve and a liquid valve. The
> difference in the valves was the vapor valve vented gas off the top of the
> tank and the liquid valve tapped off the bottom. Procedure was to start on
> the vapor and then switch over when the tractor was at operating temp.
>
> Tom H.
> == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:48:24 -0800
From: "Southerland, Rich" alldata.com>
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - South/Central Californians

The $300 impact fee has been declared unconstitutional. Something about
interfering with interstate commerce...
People who have paid the fee can request a refund.

Details here:
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.dmv.ca.gov/smogimpactfee.htm

Funny part is, the DMV is still collecting the $300 fee, then if the person
complains, directing them to apply for a refund.

Sheesh! Only in California!

- -----Original Message-----
From: Hogan, Tom [mailto:Tom.Hogan kla-tencor.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 11:32 AM
To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - South/Central Californians


You should be able to locate something out there in CA. But if you can't my
recommendation would be to go with a pre 73 vehicle. Those don't get
inspected anymore. There is however that 1 time $300 'environmental impact'
fee for out of state vehicles coming into CA. Try checking on the web there
are some good nation wide used car sites. Also check the FTE classifieds.

Tom H

> -----Original Message-----
> From: j arnold [mailto:stoney ford-trucks.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 7:55 AM
> To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: FTE 61-79 - South/Central Californians
>
>
> Would appreciate some help in locating an older Ford F
> series truck in
> California. We've been on the list a long time and heard from
> quite a few
> of yawl from that way so, thought I would start here.
> My son, Bud, joined Marine Corps last summer and after
> all training is now
> stationed at 'Twenty-Nine Palms' (just south of Barstow, in
> desert). Now
> that he is permanent (Marine? permanent? HA!), he is in need of
> transportation. Which puts me in tough position. Put enough
> money into one
> of six F series trucks we currently have, '57 through '84, so
> that 1.) is
> California leagal 2.) I can drive safely across country (Kentucky to
> California), 3.) Give him dependable, CHEAP transportation (L/Cpl in
> Marines does NOT get rich). Other option is buy truck #7, already in
> California, legal, and I don't have to drive out there and fly back.
> Would appreciate hearing from anyone out that way that
> knows of a good,
> dependable truck he can buy. His ceiling is around $2500
> that's about as
> far as "Mom's Finance Co." is willing to go. He's grown up driving and
> working on these trucks, so he's no stranger to them.
> For the Off-Road crowd, his 'job' is driving some kind
> of 8 wheel recon
> vehicle he says can go places "Hummers" avoid, so, He's having a ball.
> Appreciate hearing from anyone, Thanks in advance.
>
>
> stoney
>
> == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info
> http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
>
== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:51:30 -0500
From: "Peters, Gary (G.R.)" visteon.com>
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 -Discussions and rules for them... or not...

I have no say about who is on the list so I'm sure you are safe and I
wouldn't recommned anyone's removal in the first place. I fully understand
the other parameters involved in designing a transmission including the gear
size issue and the marketing issues. All of this is outside the scope of
what I was "recently" discussing which got away from the original discussion
so it should have been renamed in any case.

What I see happening all too often is the discussion getting side tracked
over peripheral issues and then the points begin to get mixed up as do the
replies and the subject line is no longer valid. A sit back and think about
where someone is "trying" to come from stance may be the best way to deal
with this problem. I for one will be more careful about how I respond and
to what I respond in the future and I will be staying away from the what
if's no matter how tempting they may be, they only cause trouble :-( If I
don't know the correct terms I will refrain from responding so I don't
confuse anyone.

Sometimes I feel I'm in a court of law and have to watch every detail
including the way I look at the judge......This, of course, pretty much
takes the fun out of the discussion for me :-(

- --
Michigan, Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary....


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