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Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:50:21 -0700 (MST)
From: owner-fordtrucks61-79-digest ListService.net (fordtrucks61-79-digest)
To: fordtrucks61-79-digest ListService.net
Subject: fordtrucks61-79-digest V1 #332
Reply-To: fordtrucks61-79 ListService.net
Sender: owner-fordtrucks61-79-digest ListService.net


fordtrucks61-79-digest Tuesday, November 4 1997 Volume 01 : Number 332



=======================================================================
Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1961-1979 Trucks Digest
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=======================================================================
In this issue:

RE: 77 V8-400 FIring order... [DC Beatty ]
Re: Getting back on track! [dave.williams chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)]
Storing my truck for the winter ["Jesse Marcellus"
Re: Oxygen Sensor/Meter [FOMOCONUT aol.com]
Re: Oxygen Sensor/Meter ["Dale and Donna Carmine" ]
Re: Oxygen Sensor/Meter ["Dale and Donna Carmine" ]
CompCams 252H ["Dale and Donna Carmine" ]
RE: Heavy duty U-joints [Sleddog ]
Re: FE390 (e-broke story, long) [sdelanty sonic.net]
Re: FE390 (e-broke story, long) [danadeb pacbell.net]
Re: FE390 (e-broke story, long) ["deconblu" ]
Seats ?? [Brian & Jacque Milbrandt ]
Re: Seats ?? ["deconblu" ]
Engine RUST !! [Brian & Jacque Milbrandt ]
Re: Seats ?? [Brian & Jacque Milbrandt ]
Re: CompCams 252H [Jeffry Johnston ]
RE: 2WD TO 4WD CONVERSION [Sleddog ]
66 Transmission [DHooper322 aol.com]
'75 FE360 2V Horse Power? [Jeffry Johnston ]

=======================================================================

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:32:12 -0500
From: DC Beatty
Subject: RE: 77 V8-400 FIring order...

I can still hear the high school shop teacher, "one at a time dammit, one=

at a time." =


Pull the number one spark plug. Take a shop rag and jam it in the hole to=

plug it up and make it air tight. I use a screwdriver. Don't jam it in
*far*, just *tight.* Tap the starter using the key or the screwdriver
across the solenoid method. When TDC comes up the rag will pop out of the=
re
real loud. Note the position of the rotor. It's pointing to #1. Make sure=

you have the correct direction of rotation (clockwise or counter-clockwis=
e.
I think the 400 is counter). Wire away. =


The firing order is cast on the intake, either in the front or back of th=
e
carb. If it still screws up, try again. =


Good luck, =


DC Beatty
1967 F100 352
1974 Maverick 302


today. I pulled off all of the wires with out noting where they went; I=

figured I could use the Chilton's manual to replace them. Silly me! I
replaced them according to that order, and the truck won't even start. I=
t
will misfire and then abrubptly die. :( Can anybody out there tell me
which plug wires go where on a 1977 400ci V8 motor? The sooner the
better... My mom is going to kill me for leaving the truck in the
driveway! THanks.>>>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 18:52:00 -0500
From: dave.williams chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Subject: Re: Getting back on track!

- -> Oh, ballet! not opera. Now I get it! Is anyone buying this!

It was a ballet? I thought it was the rodeo!


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 97 03:43:17 UT
From: "Jesse Marcellus"
Subject: Storing my truck for the winter

Well, it's that time of year again and I have to put my truck away for the
winter. I've got an unheated garage to put it in but it has a dirt floor and
no insulation. What can I do to prevent rusting and doing any damage to the
engine?

On a lighter note, from a female point of view, the best way to describe a
junkyard is a place full of cars that other people got tired of looking at in
their back yard all piles together in no apparent order that some creepy
looking people will let you wander through after they've tied up the one eyed
dog that guards the place to let you pull parts from so you can take them home
and realize that the part you pulled of your truck in the first place maybe
isn't that bad after all! (Doesn't make them any less fun to visit tho'!)

Kristen
66 Ford F100 Custom Cab

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:02:19 -0500 (EST)
From: FOMOCONUT aol.com
Subject: Re: Oxygen Sensor/Meter

I stand very corrected about air injection, they say the mind is the first to
go..... I knew that....... the diverter valve, operated/controlled by
manifold vaccum signal elliminates the backfire that would be caused during
decleration. However some models, and I could be thinking of my brand-x
expierience here, do only inject during the the first few minutes of engine
operation. I do now remember the configuration on the question 351M/400
series engines. I owned one for over ten years, however right after purchase
in '79 it was smartley de-smogged, including replacement of the EGR spacer
plate with shim stock and older style PCV plate, complete removal of the Air
Injection system and of course the converter and stock Exhaust system. A
small advance of base timing coupled with a decrease in allowed vaccum
advance along with the carefull use of jet drills on the venurable Motorcraft
2Bbl carb makes this engine series one of my favorites too.
Semper Ford
I really do stand by my opinion on this visual refference
O2 sensor settup and believe in tuning with the 4 gas
analyzer and chassis dyno


John L. Miller
96 F-350 4x4
68 F-250 4x4
92 Mustang

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:26:47 -0600
From: "Dale and Donna Carmine"
Subject: Re: Oxygen Sensor/Meter

Dave said;

>On M-block engines, the air injection point is in the exhaust port itself,
>since air is passed from the Thermactor pump through the intake manifold
>and into a passage at one end of each cylinder head where it goes directly
>into an exhaust port. Thus, even if you placed the O2 sensor in the
>exhaust manifold on your 351M, you wouldn't have true readings.


So Dave.......how does one go about putting an O2 sensor on this motor and
still keep the CAT purring?

later,
dale c
'79 351M

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:21:51 -0600
From: "Dale and Donna Carmine"
Subject: Re: Oxygen Sensor/Meter

Gary said;
>. Take a look at our big bronco site at off -road. com and
>look in the archives under HEGO or EGO or fuel mixture etc.. The
>conclusion is that the EGO's are not linear so will tell you when you
>are at STOICH but not precisely how far off you are when you are not
>at stoich so they are certainly useful but you have to understand the
>limitations :-)

Gary,

Went to off -road. com , found the lists but couldn't find the archive. My
favorite sites for EGO info are diy_efi and Joe's EEC-IV page, sorry don't
have the url's handy.

My understanding is that with either type of sensor you can't read true
Air/fuel ratios but can only determine whether the engine is rich or lean.
To me that's valuable info that will help take alot of the trial and error
out of carb tweaking. I plan to mount a single sensor to read one bank of
cylinders with the assumption that the carb is balanced. Not as good for
troubleshooting or monitoring but OK for what I need.

later,
dale c
'79 351M

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:06:55 -0600
From: "Dale and Donna Carmine"
Subject: CompCams 252H

Alvin,

Sounds like you have the same set up that I'm considering for my '79 351M.

>I have edlebrock chain and sprockets and a 252
>compitition cam. It now has more power and gets better gas milage than
>it ever did! Man does it ever run good now! :-)

Why did you chose the 252 over the 260? Does anyone have any comments
about this cam versus some of the newer grinds for a torque motor?
Basically I'm looking for bottom end grunt.

later
dale c
'79 351M

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:16:56 -0500
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: Heavy duty U-joints

i know i have seen heat treated ones with lifetime garentee in SUMMIT catalog. give them a call.

sleddog

- ----------
From: james oxley[SMTP:luxjo thecore.com]
Sent: Monday, November 03, 1997 11:41 AM
To: fordtrucks61-79 ListService.net
Subject: Heavy duty U-joints

Howdy,

I broke a front axle U-joint on the Dana 44 in the front of my 78
Bronco. The U-joint was fairly new. This was my first wheelin trip with
the new 38's I just got. Looking for sources for stronger U-joints.

OX





+-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1961 thru 1979 --------------+
| Send posts to fordtrucks61-79 listservice.net, |
| Send Unsubscribe requests to fordtrucks61-79-request listservice.net|
+---------- Visit Our Web Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/ ----------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:52:20 -0800
From: sdelanty sonic.net
Subject: Re: FE390 (e-broke story, long)

>Don wrote:
>
>> Edelbrock Performer Cam, Intake and Carburetor
>> Does anyone know if this should be fine ?
>> Any known problems with this on 390 ?

>I think someone here on the list has had some experience with Edel-broke
>and a 390!
>
>I just cleared my deleted E-Mails today and don't remember who!
>
>But I know by Monday afternoon you will have info!
>
>Good luck
>
>Dana


Been gone for a few days, but yeah I'm the edelbrock victim...

Unfortunatly I've also cleaned out my mailbox, so my old posts on this
are gone.

Here's how it went:

Application:
'71 F100 with '73 FE390. Headers, Schnieder cam with 270/290 adv. dur,
208/218 .050" .465" lift Intake, .490" exhaust. Crane adjustable
rockers and pushrods.
Edelbrock 600cfm carb.

Origional intake manifold: Stock D4TE 4-bbl.

So... I bought an edelbrock performer for about $225.
Got it all zinc chromate primered and painted ford blue and began
installation.

To start with, the ports on the edelbroke were not well placed. the ports
were not well centered with the ports in the head. Not even all in the same
direction. Some were quite a bit off to the left, some to the right.
The ones on the drivers side were about 1/8+" higher than the ones
on the pass side. Uh, are we having problems with core shift or what?
They were also not the same size and shape from port to port. The outer
end 1/2" of the ports were ragged and nasty and rough egg shaped and needed
quite a little work with the die grinder to clean them up and make them
decent.
Once things were cleaned up, installation began.
Got the manifold on and sealed down, put the pushrods in and rockers back on.
During the valve adjustment I got a little surprise. Several of the
pushrods hit the edge of the holes in the manifold. Some were well centered,
but some were at the edge of the hole and hit during part of the engine
rotation. (MUCH swearing here..)
Aaargh!! Mark the offending ones and remove the frigging manifold again.
Took the die grinder and opened up the offending holes to provide
clearance. Got 'em clearenced and blew out all the shavings. That's when
I notice the pinhole. A nice fat casting bubble from #7 intake port into
the adjacent pushrod hole. SH!T!!!
The wall between the two is still over 1/8" thick, but there is this nice
pencil lead sized hole between them! Intense swearing now...
O.K., I've got a nice TIG welder so I blow an hour or so getting setup
for aluminum and weld up the hole in this garbage casting.
Fine, it be fixed now. (Yeah right..)

Clean all the sealant off everything, put fresh intake gaskets on and put
the stupid thing back on. Get it all seal up, torqued down, reinstall the
pushrods and rockers and adjust the valves. COOL! The pushrods all clear
the holes now.

Finally get around to putting the distributor back in. Ackk!! Tha dist
hole in the manifold is way off center, and WAY bigger than the hole
in the stock manifold. The distributor almost touches one side of the hole,
but has 1/8"+ clearance on the other side... This is an excellent invitation
for oil leakage around the dist seal.
Not much I can do at this point about the off center hole, and the dist
does go in, so I finish buttoning things up.

Hey, guess what, another surprise! The carb flange on the edelbroke is
very narrow, and won't seal against the carb/PCV spacer block.
Enormous freakin vacuum leak. Edelbrock obviously knows about this problem,
cuz they wanna sell You an adaptor spacer for another $37. They can go get
screwed. They ain't gettin another dime outa my dumb ass...
Got a spacer that works fine from another source for $20.

Finally, after a *full* 3 day weekend of screwing around everything is
installed and working...
Total cost for manifold, gasket sets, carb spacer/adaptor + tax on
everything is about $300.
If You include total manifold fixing and installation time at $2 an hour
You can add another 50 bucks... )-:


Performance opinions:

Well, I've had the edelbroke on for about 1300 miles now.
The e-broke seems to make more torque at low/mid rpm and
definately has better/smoother performance at idle and low speeds.

It feels like it pulls harder up to about 4K rpm, but then flattens out and
above 4500 or so definately doesn't work as good as the stock D4TE.
Not a big surprise since the ports are smaller than the D4TE.

So far, gas mileage seems unchanged or maybe slightly less than the 12.1
mpg average I got with the stocker. That surprises me a bit, I was hoping
for slightly more mileage not less, but I don't have enough long term data
to really know for sure yet.

General opinions:

Assuming that the installation had gone without problems, I'd say that
the performance benifits are marginal. The low/mid speed performance is
definately better, but upper RPM performance is a loss.
The 50+ lb weight savings can only be a good thing...
Considering the $300 total cost, uh, I don't think I'd do it again.

If You add all the installation problems and general low quality of the
damn thing, I *definately* wouldn't do it again. It was a miserable
experiance.
If I didn't have a nice TIG welder, air compressor and die grinder, I'd
have been thoroughly screwed.

The reason I chose the e-broke performer to start with is because it
was the only aftermarket manifold I could find that was CA smog legal.
Now that SB-42 has passed that's a moot point for me and I'm *real*
bummed with my decision...

After my origional posts about the e-broke problems, I got an email
from someone who says they installed their FE e-brock performer
with no problem.
I've no idea if mine was just a fluke that slid by Q.C., or a general
indication of e-brock quality, but I can assure You that MY experiance
totally sucked and I'll probably not deal with e-broke stuff in the
future.
I like my E-brock carb real well, it's WAY better than the holley 1850
it replaced, but since e-brock doesn't actually design or make the carbs
I'm not surprised...

Caveat emptor, YMMV.

Happy motoring,

P.S. Yes it does weep a little oil around the distributor hole.
Not much, but enough to make me hate edelbrock just a little more...



Steve Delanty

Measure it with a micrometer,
mark it with chalk,
cut it with an axe...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 23:11:03 -0800
From: danadeb pacbell.net
Subject: Re: FE390 (e-broke story, long)

Steve,
I knew you could sum it up in less then 1000 words! ;)

Dana

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:23:21 -0800
From: "deconblu"
Subject: Re: FE390 (e-broke story, long)

Steve wrote:
> Performance opinions:
>
> Well, I've had the edelbroke on for about 1300 miles now.
> The e-broke seems to make more torque at low/mid rpm and
> definately has better/smoother performance at idle and low speeds.
>
> It feels like it pulls harder up to about 4K rpm, but then flattens out
and
> above 4500 or so definately doesn't work as good as the stock D4TE.
> Not a big surprise since the ports are smaller than the D4TE.
>
> So far, gas mileage seems unchanged or maybe slightly less than the 12.1
> mpg average I got with the stocker. That surprises me a bit, I was hoping
> for slightly more mileage not less, but I don't have enough long term data
> to really know for sure yet.
>
> General opinions:
>
> Assuming that the installation had gone without problems, I'd say that
> the performance benifits are marginal. The low/mid speed performance is
> definately better, but upper RPM performance is a loss.
> The 50+ lb weight savings can only be a good thing...
> Considering the $300 total cost, uh, I don't think I'd do it again.

OK. So it was a little trouble installing and don't do nothing. How does it
look? Come on Steve let get our priorities straight! :) I'm sorry! Don't
hit! OK, I admit it. I'm shallow! Stop it, I'll tell! Mom! "( Ouch, that
hurt!



Deacon Blues deconblu gte.net
================================================
Visit The Deacon Blues Homepage
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://home1.gte.net/deconblu/
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.dragonfire.net/~site/tbirdknights/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 01:28:38 -0500
From: Brian & Jacque Milbrandt
Subject: Seats ??

We got our first snow here in Minnesota this weekend and I put my
'64 into the barn for its winter restoration. The 460 is on the engine
stand, new crank was installed this weekend and I sat in the truck and
day dreamed of next summer and how it would feel to drive it down the
road !! But some ding-a-ling put bucket seats in it that feel like your
sitting in the basement. Anybody got any hints on what seats from what
vehicle will make it feel right??

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:44:54 -0800
From: "deconblu"
Subject: Re: Seats ??

>We got our first snow here in Minnesota this weekend and I put my
>'64 into the barn for its winter restoration. The 460 is on the engine
>stand, new crank was installed this weekend and I sat in the truck and
>day dreamed of next summer and how it would feel to drive it down the
>road !! But some ding-a-ling put bucket seats in it that feel like your
>sitting in the basement. Anybody got any hints on what seats from what
>vehicle will make it feel right??
>
> Brian

Please Brian, don't do this to me. I'm going to get in trouble! This is
like a football on a tee. A set-up I just can't resist. I won't, I won't do
it, I won't!
Oh, I don't know. How about a '64 Ford Truck! That could do it! :) I'm
sorry, I couldn't help it. My name is Deacon and I have a problem!


Deacon Blues deconblu gte.net
================================================
Visit The Deacon Blues Homepage
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://home1.gte.net/deconblu/
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.dragonfire.net/~site/tbirdknights/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 01:54:15 -0500
From: Brian & Jacque Milbrandt
Subject: Engine RUST !!

Does anybody have any suggestions on how to stop engine rust ?
I'm rebuilding a 460 slowly and am continualy fighting off rust !!
I had block boiled and new cam bearings installed along with frost
plugs, let it sit for a few weeks, rust appeared in cylinders and on
most of block, cleaned this off and painted block. I now installed crank
and will soon install pistons,cam,heads, but will not be closing up
intake or oil pan for awhile. should I spray with a light oil to protect
engine ? or will this just attract dirt? should I shrink wrap the block
in plastic or will this just create more rust with condensation ? barn
is not heated unless I fire up the wood stove, I find the rust to be
very frustrating. I probably won't fire up engine till next April or so.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated !!

Thanks

Brian
'64 F100 shortbox
'78 F150 4x4
'96 F150 4x4 shortbox
'97 J**p wrangler

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 01:57:57 -0500
From: Brian & Jacque Milbrandt
Subject: Re: Seats ??

deconblu wrote:
>
> >We got our first snow here in Minnesota this weekend and I put my
> >'64 into the barn for its winter restoration. The 460 is on the engine
> >stand, new crank was installed this weekend and I sat in the truck and
> >day dreamed of next summer and how it would feel to drive it down the
> >road !! But some ding-a-ling put bucket seats in it that feel like your
> >sitting in the basement. Anybody got any hints on what seats from what
> >vehicle will make it feel right??
> >
> > Brian
>
> Please Brian, don't do this to me. I'm going to get in trouble! This is
> like a football on a tee. A set-up I just can't resist. I won't, I won't do
> it, I won't!
> Oh, I don't know. How about a '64 Ford Truck! That could do it! :) I'm
> sorry, I couldn't help it. My name is Deacon and I have a problem!
>
> Deacon Blues deconblu gte.net
> ================================================
> Visit The Deacon Blues Homepage
> http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://home1.gte.net/deconblu/
> http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.dragonfire.net/~site/tbirdknights/
>
> +-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1961 thru 1979 --------------+
> | Send posts to fordtrucks61-79 listservice.net, |
> | Send Unsubscribe requests to fordtrucks61-79-request listservice.net|
> +---------- Visit Our Web Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/ ----------+

Guess I set myself up for that one !!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:03:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Jeffry Johnston
Subject: Re: CompCams 252H

> Alvin,
> Sounds like you have the same set up that I'm considering for my '79 351M.
>
>>I have edlebrock chain and sprockets and a 252
>>compitition cam. It now has more power and gets better gas milage than
>>it ever did! Man does it ever run good now! :-)
>
> Why did you chose the 252 over the 260? Does anyone have any comments
> about this cam versus some of the newer grinds for a torque motor?
> Basically I'm looking for bottom end grunt.
> dale c
> '79 351M

I went to Thompson's racing in Tucson Az and they told me that the Crane
cam I had picked out wasn't right for a 360fe engine as it was a dual
pattern cam and it was designed around a single pattern cam. He said he
could sell me either one. :-) I actually got a 260 but called back the
next day to talk to the main dude, I couldn't the first day because he was
on the phone the whole time! Anyway I explained to him I was going to
be running empty so I wanted gas milage because the danged engine always
had enough power for me. And I mentioned to him my 60mph rpm was ~2000
and 1800rpm is about where the 260's power band starts. The original cam
would not pull below 31mph in 4th gear but seemed to have no distinct drop
off but 100 was about all it would do. Now there seems to be no distict
bottom limit but it does pull real good at say 26mph, the top I'm not so
sure about where it's at but it definetly has one (80mph?).

3.25 ford traction lok and 215-85-16 tires about to switch back to 235's.
Original carb 2100 2v looks alittle different now after I cut that sorry
choke etc off of it with a hacksaw. ;-)

Since you have a 351, don't know if any of that will help you or not. :-)

Alvin Johnston
SE Arizona '75 F-150 & '67 bug "the junk heap"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:24:18 -0500
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: 2WD TO 4WD CONVERSION

there's no doubt thast it is a tough job, and i don't think the article has enough warnings to that end.

sleddog

- ----------
From: Gary, 78 BBB[SMTP:gpeters3 ford.com]
Sent: Monday, November 03, 1997 9:18 AM
To: fordtrucks61-79 ListService.net
Subject: Re: 2WD TO 4WD CONVERSION

> From: Sleddog
> Subject: 2WD TO 4WD CONVERSION
> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:24:01 -0500

> it, especially on a subject that is so lacking in information and
> very infrequently done.

There's a good reason for this, IT'S A TOUGH JOB to get right without
a lot of mechanical back ground. Guess how I know???

Broncos really are supposed
to have brakes aren't they?

- -- Gary --





+-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1961 thru 1979 --------------+
| Send posts to fordtrucks61-79 listservice.net, |
| Send Unsubscribe requests to fordtrucks61-79-request listservice.net|
+---------- Visit Our Web Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/ ----------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:25:53 -0500 (EST)
From: DHooper322 ....


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