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Subject: 61-79-list-digest V3 #416
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61-79-list-digest Sunday, November 14 1999 Volume 03 : Number 416



=======================================================================
Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1961-1979 Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

FTE 61-79 - wrong tourqe specs
RE: FTE 61-79 - I'm baaaaaacccckkkkk!
RE: FTE 61-79 - wrong tourqe specs
RE: FTE 61-79 -Latest developments re clutch
RE: FTE 61-79 -Cast Iron and welding, 101
Re: FTE 61-79 -Latest developments re clutch
FTE 61-79 - Dana axle shafts
Re: FTE 61-79 - RE: 351M and 400
FTE 61-79 - seats, clutch inspection cover bolts, stereos and insulation
FTE 61-79 - 71 questions
RE: FTE 61-79 -Latest developments re clutch
FTE 61-79 - 66 Transmission
FTE 61-79 - Body lift done-> clutch adj. question
FTE 61-79 - Prolonging death in my 351M...
Re: FTE 61-79 - Prolonging death in my 351M...
FTE 61-79 - Modified or Midland
FTE 61-79 - Fjord related ?
Re: FTE 61-79 - Prolonging death in my 351M...
Re: FTE 61-79 - Body lift done-> clutch adj. question

=======================================================================

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 03:58:38 PST
From: "Stephen Brown"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - wrong tourqe specs

Hey everybody,

I just replaced the head gaskets in my 352, I got them all tourqed
down, when I realized that I was reading the specs for a 460!
The tourqe for the 352 is supposed to be 85-90lbs and the 460 is 130-140lbs!
Is this going to cause any major problems? I really don't want to take it
apart again, also if I tell my wife that I have to spend more $ to fix this
engine, she'll blow a gasket(parden the pun):-)


Stephen B.
71 F250 Custom

______________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 07:11:55 -0500
From: "Peters, Gary (G.R.)"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - I'm baaaaaacccckkkkk!

Chevy axles are reversed from ford and may not be the same length, otherwise
I would suspect they would be similar enough to work but even with fords the
snap ring on the end of the axle varies from one application to another and
with the OEM locking hubs you need it, with the Warn premiums you don't so
you have to make some comparisons I guess :-)

If I were looking for a compatible mate for it I would try a dodge first or
large body Jeep since they use the same offset (at least the same direction)
as ford. The punkin is offset to the driver side on Ford, Dodge and Jeep so
may actually even be the same axle, not sure?

- --
Michigan, Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.thewowfactor.com/bigbroncos/detail.cfm?detailid=167
- --

> Does the Dana-44 front axles from a 74-79 F-150 Ford 4x4
> interchange with thoses from a Chevy (THE UGLY WORD!) Dana-44
> 4x4 axles from 73-91? More specifically, the short ones?
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 07:26:58 -0500
From: "Peters, Gary (G.R.)"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - wrong tourqe specs

The torque spec is partly to protect the integrity of the bolt and threads
along with minimal distortion of the block and heads and partly to give the
gasket sufficient compression to resist the power strokes, cylinder
pressure. The FE bolts are probably smaller than the 460 so will be at
their elastic limits at that torque and may distort the block and head
sufficiently to cause some trouble. The FE block is thinner in some areas
than the 460 block too so distortion may be a consideration, not sure.

I would pop the valve covers and retorque them to be safe. 50# is quite a
bit of difference. It may not matter much but then again........:-(

I put a nice 460 together only to discover that the timing cover had a bad
spot in it and coolant came out in a nice thin stream about 6' in the air
when it warmed up during the cam breakin. Replaceing a timing cover always
means eventual leaks because you never get the front seal quite as good as
on a stand and you have to glue part of the pan gasket back together etc..
Heart breaking but it had to be fixed :-(

- --
Michigan, Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.thewowfactor.com/bigbroncos/detail.cfm?detailid=167
- --

> down, when I realized that I was reading the specs for a 460!
> The tourqe for the 352 is supposed to be 85-90lbs and the 460
> is 130-140lbs!
> Is this going to cause any major problems? I really don't
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 07:45:53 -0500
From: "Peters, Gary (G.R.)"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 -Latest developments re clutch

Cast iron is roughly 4% carbon and has a more crystaline molecular structure
than steel, probably due to this fact, not sure but the carbon causes severe
work hardening any time stress or heat is applied and the crysaline
molecular form tends to fracture more easily so most cast parts are fairly
heavy walled for strength and most machining is done in such a way as to
leave radiuses where ever possible. When you weld it the carbon causes
"Carbides" to form which are even more crystaline and have less affinity for
each other than the iron did so the area you heat is weaker and more likely
to crack. Good nodular iron isn't too bad to weld and blocks are typically
pretty decent but bell housings may or may not be, not sure.

If you pre-heat to about 800 degrees or so and keep it warm while welding
and then post heat and peen the weld you have a very good prospect of
getting away with it but if you don't do these extra steps the weld material
will almost certainly pull away from the parent metal when the weld cools
and eventually fall apart. I use a needle gun or air chisel with pointed
punch to peen my cast iron welds. This peens the surface without causing a
lot of trauma to the weld/metal interfaces etc.. You must peen while it is
still red for the best results and continue as is cools. The peening
offsets some or all of the shrinkage stress on the weld joint and the post
heat keeps the parent metal the same temp as the weld so they cool together
with less chance of stress between them.

I presume they were planning to wang on it with a 4# hammer to upset the
rivets :-) I typically use an air hammer with flat punch to do it and a
bucking block. The individual blows of the air chisel are less traumatic to
the cast iron, rivet and brackets yet sufficiently compacts the rivet to
expand it and peen the head at the same time. Controling the punch is the
only serious problem with this method so it won't work on every application
but I use it where ever I can.

Since I haven't paid much attention to the fulcrum I am going by memory as
to what it looks like etc. so not sure where the bolt heads need to be for
clearance but you can see this easily when you look at it yourself, it's
very obvious.

- --
Michigan, Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.thewowfactor.com/bigbroncos/detail.cfm?detailid=167
- --

> So now, I'll just have to drive it like it is and wait to see what
> happens. I dont know anything about welding. Is the idea that the heat
> of the welding creates a weak spot in the cast iron of the housing?
>
> Sounds logical. I dont know why three machine shops here
> refused the job
> saying they were afraid of cracking it.
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 08:18:21 -0500
From: "Peters, Gary (G.R.)"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 -Cast Iron and welding, 101

Yes, Steve there are rods, several types for welding cast iron but it's
still an iffy proposition. I once welded up a knuckle in a 200 ton Johnson
press which broke right in half. This part was the link between the
connecting rod and the ram and had to withstand both the weight of the ram
and the pressure at the bottom of the stroke which is actually what broke it
in the first place.

I heated it in a gas furnace till it was glowing pretty well after "V"ing it
out almost to the center and spent about an hour filling it back up with
375, nickle rod (I understand there are much better rods available now). I
had to wear insulated gloves to even get near it. After each pass I stopped
and peened the dickens out of it and then we put it back in the oven and
fired it up till the whole thing was dull red, not real hot but hot enough
and let it cool in the oven. This part worked until I was laid off severl
months later so I know it can be done but it has to be done right to be sure
it will stay together.

High carbon Pig iron isn't my imression of what mild steel is :-) 1018
steel is .18% carbon not 18% but 0.0018 where cast iron is 4% or 0.0400 so
has roughly 22 times more carbon in it than mild steel. By comparison
spring steel like that used in rear leaf springs has about 1.8% or 0.0180
carbon and we all know how brittle that can be, eh? BTW, I've also
succesfully welded spring steel with 308 stainless rod and pre and post
heating along with some peening. My F-600 came to me with a broken front
main leaf and a very lopsided stance. Since I had no money (laid off at the
time and trying to cut firewood for a living) I figured I couldn't lose
anything by trying so I cleaned it up, clamped it to a steel bench,
pre-heated it and the bench back several inches being carefull not to get it
red and welded it up. Ground it smooth and put it back together and, as far
as I know, it was still intact when I got rid of it. In my experience, this
kind of weld has less than a 50/50 chance of holding up and if it had been
in the ends where it has to flex more instead of in the center I would not
have even attempted it.

- --
Michigan, Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.thewowfactor.com/bigbroncos/detail.cfm?detailid=167
- --


> I've welded cast iron on many occasions, there is a welding rod
> designed specifically for it. All you need to do is preheat
> to a specific
> temp for the type of cast iron you're welding. After all,
> cast iron is

> one form of mild steel.....
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 08:26:55 EST
From: TBeeee aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 -Latest developments re clutch

Just a thought on this subject....since I personally weld I would probably
try to repair that bellhousing. I've been know to spend a few hours welding
parts which could be purchased cheaper in comparison to the time spent.
However, I do it because I like to practice my art. Welding is part science
part art especially when it comes to welding cast parts. There are also good
nickel rods on the market which allow you to weld cast parts without
pre-heating. I agree with Gary that the better weld comes from pre-heating
cast parts, but most people do not have a hot-box at their disposal. I have
cheated on that one too, but it's not quite the same.

In this situation, you probably can find a used bellhousing cheaper than
you can find someone to weld it.

Stock Man
1967 Galaxie 500 Convertible (HELP!---I need 15 x5 factory rims)
1967 F-250 FE 390 4wd
1966 F-250 I6 240 2wd LWB Flare Side
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.hometown.aol.com/tbeeee
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 09:39:45 EST
From: BDIJXS aol.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Dana axle shafts

Hi Gerry,

Well, I don't know the answer to your question. But I'm pretty sure the
Chevies have the diff on the other side (meaning the short shaft is on the
passenger side). If you're lucky, they will just be "mirrored" and it will
fit. I have found an amazing selection of Dana parts to be compatible, so you
may get lucky.

Let us know!

CJ
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 10:47:52 EST
From: Bad4dFilly aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - RE: 351M and 400

In a message dated 11/12/1999 6:41:10 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
jumbofordman earthlink.net writes:


it is for Modified (Because it's a Modified 400). Both are actually
versions of the Cleveland engine family (So calling it yet another city
doesn't sound right.) As far as that web site that claims they are
'Midland' engines, it is the site I would go to LAST to find any correct
information about your Ford Truck >>

Yup, dad says that what he thinks they stand for too......

*~*~Lisa and Envy~*~*
*~*~SIlly boys...trucks are for GIRLS!~*~*
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 12:10:15 -0500
From: "Redden"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - seats, clutch inspection cover bolts, stereos and insulation

Daniel:

Seats: My '71 F250 has a '96 Ford truck seat in it. The previous owner got
it from wrecked truck.
It needs to have the power functions hooked up, though. Fits pretty well.
He had to drill new holes
in the floor to accomodate it. I've seen Escort seats in the old trucks
(buckets). Since my truck has
an in-cab gas tank, the bench seat probably is the best choice.

Clutch/flywheel cover bolts: I got my cover from the wreckers, it had no
bolts. I just checked the size
with a bolt out of my collection that would fit (5/16ths, I believe) and got
new ones at the hardware store.
I used 3/4 inch length bolts.

Stereos/Insulation: Since my doors had cut outs already I put in Orion
speakers. I was able to get a
Panasonic CD player/tuner in the dash by slightly filing the mounting
bracket that came with
the unit. Looks good. I plan on using the foil/foam sheet insulation in
the doors and under
the carpet (do that when you replace your seat). Also I'll probably put
some on the cab roof
and the hood. I got my insulation at Jegs, but you can get it at the auto
parts stores too.
Helps with noise and heat/cold.

Good luck.

Mike


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 10:22:42 -0800
From: "S.Harkema"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - 71 questions

>I thought about replacing it with another seat.
>I heard that I could get a seat out of a newer model

Don't know about a 71,but a 84 seat bolted right to my 76 tracks.

>My truck was missing the dust cover over the flywheel
>and I found one at a salvage yard but It was missing two
>bolts.

Nothing special about these bolts. Any hardware store should have them
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 13:57:31 -0500
From: "Peters, Gary (G.R.)"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 -Latest developments re clutch

I cheated some on my Dana axle weld up too. I didn't pre heat as much as I
should have nor did I peen it as well as I usually do but I did post heat
quite a bit. So far there are no visable cracks in the tube to housing
welds or the truss ends I welded to the axle castings on the ends of the
tubes but I don't jump it either :-)

Welding in this case was not even indicated so should not have been used.
Rivets or bolts would have been a much better choice, had he had a choice
:-)

- --
Michigan, Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.thewowfactor.com/bigbroncos/detail.cfm?detailid=167
- --

> There are also good
> nickel rods on the market which allow you to weld cast parts without
> pre-heating. I agree with Gary that the better weld comes
> from pre-heating
> cast parts, but most people do not have a hot-box at their
> disposal. I have
> cheated on that one too, but it's not quite the same.
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 17:32:55 -0800
From: "O'Connor"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - 66 Transmission

List,
I have a standard transmission out of a 66 longbed and I would like to put
into a 66 shortbed. Do I need to change the output shaft? On the longbed,
the yoke is held with a nut and washer. On the shortbed, the yoke just
slides loose on the spline. Can the yoke from the short wheelbase slide
into the output shaft of the longbase transmission?

Tim 66F100
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 17:04:35 -0600
From: Kirk Baillie
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Body lift done-> clutch adj. question

Hi I just finished the 2" body lift on my 74 F250 4X4 highboy and now i
have a couple of things to fix. The clutch is now out of a adjustment,
how do i lower the friction point on the clutch since now it is almost
right at the top (is the only adj. mechanism the threaded rod by the
clutch fork?). And my brakes feel not quite a powerful as they did
before the lift what could have caused this?

Thanks
Kirk Baillie
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 17:38:38 -0800
From: "Jeff Norville"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Prolonging death in my 351M...

Howdy List:

My '79 Bronco has 65,000 on the odometer, but considering the accessories
replaced/rebuilt, condition of the rockers/engine metal after glancing under
the valve covers once (trying to fix an oil leak), and size of (unfixed) oil
leak I suspect this has 165,000 miles on it... Possible? Unlikely?

The leak is definitely the rear main seal, and the newest ailment the engine
seems to have acquired is a nifty knocking when accelerating around 40 mph.
Main bearing? Timing chain? Or just timing adjust...?

This knock coincided with a change in oil pressure -> the gauge used to drop
to 10 - 15 psi during extended driving, but now drops below 10 psi regularly
(tho engine temp doesn't change!) - silly aftermarket gauge (no, not me)
doesn't register ANYthing under 10. I did an oil change before a trip last
week and used 10W-30 - had been on 10W-40 - didn't help. Disconcerting to
cruise down I-5 with no oil pressure.

Ah, I mentioned the peak at the valves/rockers - nasty. Lots of metal
shavings clogging up everything. Looked much worse than the Ch*vy 350 I
rebuilt in my childhood after cracking a valve...

So, (1) how to prolong death in this engine? Someone said use hotter plugs.
Someone else said just carry a starter and water pump around with you on
longer trips. I would love to try and squeeze one more Baja trip out of the
beast before dropping in a new _______.

At which time I'll beg for (2) input on swapping engines in California....

Ideas on either point?

Thanks,
Jeff

Who still can't understand why it's illegal to make your truck run more
efficiently in this state.
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 19:49:34 -0700
From: William Whited
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Prolonging death in my 351M...

My 390 has a bad rear main oil leak, and I have put over 30,000 miles on her
since I have started using 50w oil. I drove her from Newport News Va to El Paso
Tx in Aug., and even towed a 77 F150 from Ft Worth with no problems. Yes every
200 miles I had to stop for gas and put a qt or two in her but still no
problems. I still drive her daily. She also has a lack of oil pressure on
extended drives, like on the interstate when I have her cruising at 70+, but she
is still running strong.

William A Whited
74 F100 Ranger Supercab 390
77 F150 Custom 460
El Paso Tx
Semper Fi 224

Jeff Norville wrote:

> Howdy List:
>
> My '79 Bronco has 65,000 on the odometer, but considering the accessories
> replaced/rebuilt, condition of the rockers/engine metal after glancing under
> the valve covers once (trying to fix an oil leak), and size of (unfixed) oil
> leak I suspect this has 165,000 miles on it... Possible? Unlikely?
>
> The leak is definitely the rear main seal, and the newest ailment the engine
> seems to have acquired is a nifty knocking when accelerating around 40 mph.
> Main bearing? Timing chain? Or just timing adjust...?
>
> This knock coincided with a change in oil pressure -> the gauge used to drop
> to 10 - 15 psi during extended driving, but now drops below 10 psi regularly
> (tho engine temp doesn't change!) - silly aftermarket gauge (no, not me)
> doesn't register ANYthing under 10. I did an oil change before a trip last
> week and used 10W-30 - had been on 10W-40 - didn't help. Disconcerting to
> cruise down I-5 with no oil pressure.
>
> Ah, I mentioned the peak at the valves/rockers - nasty. Lots of metal
> shavings clogging up everything. Looked much worse than the Ch*vy 350 I
> rebuilt in my childhood after cracking a valve...
>
> So, (1) how to prolong death in this engine? Someone said use hotter plugs.
> Someone else said just carry a starter and water pump around with you on
> longer trips. I would love to try and squeeze one more Baja trip out of the
> beast before dropping in a new _______.
>
> At which time I'll beg for (2) input on swapping engines in California....
>
> Ideas on either point?
>
> Thanks,
> Jeff
>
> Who still can't understand why it's illegal to make your truck run more
> efficiently in this state.
> == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 21:44:03 -0600
From: George Ramsower
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Modified or Midland

I wish I could remember which rod magazine I read it from, or even the
year, but a dude with Ford wrote in one time to clarify this matter. He
said the M stands for Midland, but it's been called Modified so much, by
so many, even Ford recognizes the term Mofified as referring to the
Midland.
I gave up trying to tell people of this a long time ago, because they
don't believe it. Nor do lots of ppl believe that Ford made a 400. I've
had arguments with others that say ALL the M series are 400ci even when
it's called a 351M.
Very few people believe the first Windsor was 221ci, fewer believe the
427Ford existed, and some ppl think the flathead is still king.

That was fun!
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 23:04:03 -0500
From: pdesanto Cinergy.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Fjord related ?

> From: Dennis Pearson
> Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Not truck related, but FoMoCo related
> A car called "Think" HAS to be a luxury vehicle in Norway... :>)
> But will they eventually produce Fjord Trucks...?
> Dennis Pearson
==================================================================
Dennis, sometimes you don't say much, but when you do...you bring a smile to
my face. :-)
Phil



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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 00:51:48 EST
From: GMontgo930 aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Prolonging death in my 351M...

Sounds to me like it's defiantly got 165k miles. I also have a 79 Bronco
(with a 400). It made 171k before wanting a semiretirement in Miami (bent
pushrod, ejected lifter, no oil pressure, clattering valves, etc). She still
got me home slow & easy after plugging in a temp pushrod & lifter.

As for extending the life, the first thing Id look for is to raise the oil
pressure some. I understand that the rear bearings in these engines have poor
(less than the front) oiling and when your under 10 and banging already, them
bearings aint gonna last much longer.
It really depends on how deep you wanna go inside it. The bores of my 171k
400 (same basic engine as yours) still look real good (that engine is still
on the stand, I've got another 400 at living in the bronco right now), so you
might just wanna go after bearings, oil pump, timing chain, & the seals &
gaskets. a Valve job might not hurt since it's down and may not have been
done. (Mine took 7 new ex valves at 140k.) I really dont think anything less
than that will do you much good, aside from parking it.

As for swapping engines, there is as many answers as Bronco Drivers.
Personally I like the 400. I've already got enough weight on the front and
dont want any more. You could rebuild your 351 into a 400 by replacing the
crank & pistons with those from a 400. I've heard the 400 can be made to run
real strong if you know the right tricks and I read somewhere that the 400
has the longest stroke of any Ford V8. I hope to apply them to my engine
stand model!

Those are my thoughts. My not reflect those of the other board members, but
they are mine!

George


In a message dated 11/13/1999 8:42:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
norville sosinet.net writes:



My '79 Bronco has 65,000 on the odometer, but considering the accessories
replaced/rebuilt, condition of the rockers/engine metal after glancing under
the valve covers once (trying to fix an oil leak), and size of (unfixed) oil
leak I suspect this has 165,000 miles on it... Possible? Unlikely?

The leak is definitely the rear main seal, and the newest ailment the engine
seems to have acquired is a nifty knocking when accelerating around 40 mph.
Main bearing? Timing chain? Or just timing adjust...?

This knock coincided with a change in oil pressure -> the gauge used to drop
to 10 - 15 psi during extended driving, but now drops below 10 psi regularly
(tho engine temp doesn't change!) - silly aftermarket gauge (no, not me)
doesn't register ANYthing under 10. I did an oil change before a trip last
week and used 10W-30 - had been on 10W-40 - didn't help. Disconcerting to
cruise down I-5 with no oil pressure.

Ah, I mentioned the peak at the valves/rockers - nasty. Lots of metal
shavings clogging up everything. Looked much worse than the Ch*vy 350 I
rebuilt in my childhood after cracking a valve...

So, (1) how to prolong death in this engine? Someone said use hotter plugs.
Someone else said just carry a starter and water pump around with you on
longer trips. I would love to try and squeeze one more Baja trip out of the
beast before dropping in a new _______.

At which time I'll beg for (2) input on swapping engines in California....

Ideas on either point?....

---

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