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Subject: 61-79-list-digest V3 #400
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61-79-list-digest Tuesday, November 2 1999 Volume 03 : Number 400



=======================================================================
Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1961-1979 Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

RE: FTE 61-79 - FE Cam Installation
FTE 61-79 - Re: Steering wheel/column adjustments
RE: FTE 61-79 - Clutches and things...
FTE 61-79 - FE Cam Installation
FTE 61-79 - Rear Wheel Bearings -- Follow Up
FTE 61-79 - FE's
RE: FTE 61-79 - Clutches and things...
RE: FTE 61-79 - FE Cam Installation
FTE 61-79 - Steering column
FTE 61-79 - Re: Dead Cylinder
RE: FTE 61-79 - 302 info needed
RE: FTE 61-79 - Re: Dead Cylinder
FTE 61-79 - vibration problem
FTE 61-79 - cam installaion
FTE 61-79 - Clutches and things...
Re: FTE 61-79 - Re: Dead Cylinder
Re: FTE 61-79 - FE Cam Installation
RE: FTE 61-79 - FE Cam Installation
Re: FTE 61-79 - Clutches and things...
FTE 61-79 - Mileage and Vacuum
FTE 61-79 - 302 info needed
Re: FTE 61-79 - cam installaion
RE: FTE 61-79 - Clutches and things...
RE: FTE 61-79 - Clutches and things...
RE: FTE 61-79 - Clutches and things...
FTE 61-79 - C6 tranny questions
RE: FTE 61-79 - Clutches and things...
RE: FTE 61-79 - C6 tranny questions
RE: FTE 61-79 - re:vibration problem
Re: FTE 61-79 - 302 info needed
FTE 61-79 - Re:Re: Vibration Problem
RE: FTE 61-79 - Clutches and things...
FTE 61-79 - FE Cam Installation
Re: FTE 61-79 - FE Cam Installation
RE: FTE 61-79 - Clutches and things...
RE: FTE 61-79 - Mileage and Vacuum
Re: FTE 61-79 - C6 tranny questions
RE: FTE 61-79 - C6 tranny questions
RE: FTE 61-79 - Mileage and Vacuum
RE: FTE 61-79 - C6 tranny questions
Re: FTE 61-79 - C6 tranny questions

=======================================================================

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:16:20 -0500
From: tfreeman murphyfarms.com
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - FE Cam Installation

Cam bearings from what I can find come in a standard size and a .015 undersize.
I've heard about the taper bearings before but didn't know it the FE uses them.
If that's the case and the machine shop didn't keep them in order, then the cam
would hit something. I don't have enough experience with the FE (first rebuild)
to know, but I'm learning more every day. I'm going to try and put the cam in
again tonight, just make sure I wasn't crazy. If it doesn't go in, I'm going to
call the machine shop and take the block, crank and all, to them and let them
get it right. They've done well by me so far. This is the first oops that I've
encountered, not to bad I guess. I was hoping to get my cam installed and get
the heads back (in the shop at the moment) and start getting this thing buttoned
up.

The cam is a 275H from Comp Cams. 275intake/285exhaust with a little .5" lift
at the valve. Should be a fairly common grind. I think the 428's run something
similar, not sure though.

I want to Thank everyone for their help and support. Without this list, I know
I wouldn't have tried this build.

- -Ted




I had absolutley NO problems getting my cam installed in my 360. Did it
with pistons and crank in place.
Nothing hung and it slid right in like it was made for the engine.
It was a 30 year old Ford cam from the shelf of an obsolete dealer.......
I doubt seriously that has anything to do with it. I was really worried it
may be bent after sitting that long.
Turns snug but freely. 8^)
Your cam may be bent or the bearings may be scewy......wrong size?? Do
they make different sized bearings for the cam?
I dunno what else to offer, most everyone has given possibilties, I am just
giving my trouble free experience.

How radical is the grind???

Stu
Nuke GM!







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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:23:52 EST
From: TBeeee aol.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re: Steering wheel/column adjustments

In a message dated 11/2/99 1:11:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, dennyk wenet.net
writes:

> No mechanic has been able to make the wheel sit down on the column like
> it should. One said that he thought the wheel was a different year and
> that's why it wouldn't go down.

Dennis:

It's entirely possible that the wrong parts are there. However, it may
simply be an adjustment. Try this: loosen the two bolts which attach the
column to the underside of the dash. Then go under the hood and find the
lower column support bracket. This is the part "black" part that bolts
directly to the firewall just above the column tube. You must loosen the
clamp which goes around this bracket and the column. Now go back inside the
cab and pull up on the column while holding pressure down on the wheel. If
the gap tightens up then just tighten the dash mount. Recheck everything for
proper alignment and re-tighten all bolts. You will also need to readjust
the bearing retainer clamp which is a small clamp that bolts directly to the
lower steering shaft between the column and the rag joint. I hope this
helps.

Stock Man
1967 Galaxie 500 Convertible (HELP!---I need 15 x5 factory rims)
1967 F-250 FE 390 4wd
1966 F-250 I6 240 2wd LWB Flare Side
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.hometown.aol.com/tbeeee
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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 06:22:55 -0500
From: "Clem Salek"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - Clutches and things...


think letting the clutch out at the light would be one more engage
point and another chance for some more wear ... in actuality I don't
think whether you hold it in at the light or put it in neutral has
any effect on the clutch itself ... your leg maybe, but not the
clutch. >>
>>


Actually, to save the pressure plate, throwout bearing, and clutch disk, You
can shift without using the clutch at all. Upshifting is easy, but
downshifting takes a little practice. If you get the rev's and vehicle
speed just right, it'll slide right into gear no problem. The only drawback
is that you're not able to wind out every gear, but for everyday driving...
Downshifting, you've got to slide it in neutral, tap the gas a few times,
and nudge it into the lower gear...Like I said...a little harder to master.
Newer trannies are a little harder to work without the clutch, but even my
Nis #n Max*#a doesn't mind getting shifted this way. This way, you only
need to use the clutch to get moving. But like Gary said, with 100k miles
possible between clutch overhauls (with no real abuse) who really cares.

Clem
"Recon Unit 1"
'79 F350,460,NP435
10Ton PTO Winch

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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 06:06:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Bill Ballinger
Subject: FTE 61-79 - FE Cam Installation

>Your cam may be bent or the bearings may be
>scewy......wrong size?? Do
>they make different sized bearings for the cam?
>I dunno what else to offer, most everyone has given
>possibilties, I am
>just

If I remember right, the bearings get smaller as you
go to the back and the journals on the cam correspond
to the size of the journals (they too get smaller as
you go back) If the shop got the bearings out of
order, they wont work.

Another possibility.(very remote, and don't think I'm
flaming you) Are you putting the cam in backwards?
The gear goes to the front. I have a friend who
called me once with the same problem. He had built
quite a few engines too, but it turned out he was
thinking Ch*vy and tried to put the cam in backwards
with the gear to the back. This is not meant to be an
insult, or a smart*** reply, and please don't take it
as such. Just a thought.

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 07:45:06 -0600
From:
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Rear Wheel Bearings -- Follow Up

I pulled my axles on Sat. that was a piece of cake
The retainer rings came off with no big problems.
I could not get the actual bearings off no matter what I tried.
The parts shops wouldn't do it either. Finally took it to a repair shop, and they
got the bearings off. Said the new bearings were the wrong ones though so I am
still truckless and waiting. I'm not sure how I got the wrong bearings, I checked
the parts numbers in the book my self. *sigh*
Bryan Kirking
66 Step Side
352 FE, 4 speed
Houston, Texas


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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 06:32:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Bill Ballinger
Subject: FTE 61-79 - FE's

>But the problem is that the exhaust
>valves and seats run hotter than with other head
>designs.

>What you say about FE engine design makes sense.
>I always thought the unique exposed exhaust port
>design helped with the
>heat situation.Imagine the valve situation would be
>worse if they
>had a more conventional port.

The exposed port does help alot to dissipate heat, and
some things I read theorize that the air cooled port
roofs cause them to scavenge more efficiently, due to
overhead coolness actually drawing the hot gases up
from the bowl. The engineers were also shaving off
weight, an FE head in iron only weighs 40 lbs, one of
the lightest iron heads made AFAIK.

I've read that they made the intake manifold part of
the what in most engines would be the head so that
they could make the manifold rise and head port entry
area specific to an application, effectively making
the ability to customize the flow path almost all the
way to the intake valve possible. And as a secondary
benefit, aluminum intakes would cut even more weight
off when used.

When you put an aluminum intake on one they aren't
much heavier than a Ch*vy small-block. Amazing
considering it's bulk and the thick casting methods
used in the structural aspects of the block.

They were way ahead of their time, but all I can say
about those exhaust manifolds is that they must have
designed them as an afterthought, or for economical
assembly. A better breathing design, like the HP cast
header for instance, would have made a world of
difference for the bread and butter engines.

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:34:26 -0600
From: "William S. Hart"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - Clutches and things...

> Actually, to save the pressure plate, throwout bearing, and
> clutch disk, You
> can shift without using the clutch at all.

I do this in my 'stang quite a bit actually, just 'cause ... the reason its
"harder" with the newer trannies isn't really because of the tranny, but the
motor. To help ease emissions, they "hang" the revs briefly when you let
off the gas, supposedly this also makes for smoother shifts, but those of us
that are used to the old carbs backing off as soon as we let off the gas, we
have problems with this ...



> Upshifting is easy, but
> downshifting takes a little practice. If you get the rev's and vehicle
> speed just right, it'll slide right into gear no problem.


I'm still having trouble with the down shift thing ... also my tranny is
starting to go anyway (I'm pretty sure it was abused as a child) so cold
shifting without the clutch doesn't happen ... heck sometimes it doesn't
want to happen with the clutch ...

> Downshifting, you've got to slide it in neutral, tap the gas a few times,
> and nudge it into the lower gear...Like I said...a little harder
> to master.
> Newer trannies are a little harder to work without the clutch, but even my

The other "trick" I've noticed with my 'stang is that it seems to liek to
get the gas nudged a bit to totally unload the pressures on the tranny
before slipping out of gear, so when you're slowing down, just ease onto the
gas a bit and the gear shift should pop right out ...

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4 6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:36:36 -0600
From: "William S. Hart"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - FE Cam Installation

> The cam is a 275H from Comp Cams. 275intake/285exhaust with a
> little .5" lift
> at the valve. Should be a fairly common grind. I think the
> 428's run something
> similar, not sure though.
>

I think you'll be quite happy with that cam. I've got a similar one in the
390 build up I did and it runs like a champ ... I love it :)

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4 6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 09:21:36 -0500
From: "J. Doss Halsey"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Steering column

Dennis,

I'll take a crack at this as I am presently trying to sort my steering
column as well. I replaced the center shaft when I went to power steering
and there are a few things still not quite right. I think that gap you
speak of between the wheel and the column is set by a clamp at the lower
end of the shaft on which the lower bearing (inner race) seats. My gap is
too tight at present and the wheel binds when turning. Using the power
steering shaft (shorter), I don't have enough room for that clamp. If I run
without the clamp, (let the bottom of the shaft seat the bearing) I have
the gap you speak of. I'm thinking about adjusting the depth of the clamp
(on a grinder) to get the gap right.

Doss Halsey
'68 F-250, camper special, new power steering

>Here tho is another problem that I bet no one will be able to answer. So
>far, six or seven professional mechanics here in San Francisco have been
>unable to figure it out. (BTW this is a 72 F-100, with a 4-speed floor
>shift). When I bought the truck three years ago, I noticed that there
>was a space of about 3/8 or 1/2 inch between the steering wheel and the
>steering column. Also there was a difference in the paint color,
>indicating the steering wheel was a replacement. The steering wheel
>looks like the picture of the 71-77 2-spoke wheel. Since the steering
>wheel wasn't all the way down on the column, the little brush connection
>for the horn, which just sits in a tube, wasn't held in and kept falling
>out.
>Anyone have any ideas about this? I know I could just install a
>different horn system, but it bothers me not to be able to put the thing
>back the way it's supposed to be.

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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:37:09 EST
From: BanksRVA aol.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re: Dead Cylinder

What is the best way to check if you have a dead cylinder?`
Thanks, Joe
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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:40:28 -0600
From: "William S. Hart"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - 302 info needed

> Ok, I own a 1988 Lincoln Town Car, with a 302 in it. I'm assuming it's the
> same one they put in the trucks, so don't bite my head off :)

There are slight differences in the heads between the car and the truck, but
below that the short blocks are essentially the same ...

> wondering, is this a Windsor?

Yes. I dare say all 302's are Windsors (yes I know the Boss has different
heads, but what's the bell housing pattern?) ... the Windsor family includes
the 260, 289, 302, and some 351's (namely the W's :) ... parts are fairly
interchangeable, but you need to be absolutely sure first ... for instance
351W's use a different head bolt, so you would need a special one to put
those heads on your 302 ...



I'm thinking of hopping up the
> engine somewhat
> :), and don't say that this doesn't relate to Ford trucks, cause I'm also
> thinking about putting one in my truck.
>

They are great motors ... 88 should be a roller block too I think ... there
is a huge aftermarket for these motors, just pick up any 5.0 magazine or
Mustang anything and there will be hop up parts for the fuelie 302's ...

Good luck with the build up :)

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4 6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:54:08 -0600
From: "William S. Hart"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - Re: Dead Cylinder

> What is the best way to check if you have a dead cylinder?`
>

Well it depends if its totally dead or only mostly dead ...
What's the difference ?
Well if he's totally dead all you can do is rifle his pockets and look for
loose change ...


Anyway what do you mean by dead ? Its not firing ever, or it misses or it
just makes funny noises ?

Probably the first step would be to pull the plug and see what it looks like
... black and oily, plug in a compression tester and see what the various
cylinders are getting for pressure ...

If the plug is rounded and in bad shape, it might just be time for new plugs
... and of course there's the usual caprotorcondensorpoints tune up on the
older non Duraspark trucks ...

Any more info you could provide might be useful ...

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4 6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 08:46:46 -0600
From: "John LaGrone"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - vibration problem

>>As I said, it sounds like an
ignition or cam or valve problem to me.

I vote for carb, ignition, or head gasket in that order. It sounds to me
like your carb is flooding out at low rpm. If you have a metal float, it
probably has a hole in it. If you have a foam float, it probably is soaked
and doesn't float right. Otherwise, your needle and seat (specifically, the
needle) are probably bad. If you recently rebuilt the carb, then the needle
and seat are either out of adjustment or didn't stay assembled correctly.

If you eliminate the carb as the problem, then look for spark plug wires
that are cross firing. Get some el cheapo type looms to keep your wires
separated as they travel across the engine compartment. Look for a hole
burned or worn in the insulation by the exhaust manifolds, throttle linkage,
and suspension parts. Examine each wire for burned terminals. Usually the
spark plug end gets damaged during removal then arcs and burns. If possible,
check your wires with an ohm meter (also known as a hojo meter). It doesn't
matter what the reading is (now someone will tell us what it should be),
they should all be the same. A bad wire in your case will have infinite
resistance. Replace the set, don't replace singletons.

Lastly, if the head gasket between two cylinders burns out, they will cross
fire. This usually manifests itself as a severe vibration when coasting down
a hill. The only way I know of to diagnose this is with a compression check.
Two adjacent cylinders will be low.

Yes, I have experienced all of these problems, but not on Henry.

- -- John
jlagrone ford-trucks.com
1979 F150 Custom LWB Regular Cab 351M C6 (Henry)
http://www.ford-trucks.com/jlagrone/henry.home.htm
Dearborn iron rules!!!!
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 09:07:13 -0600
From: "John LaGrone"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - cam installaion

>>The only things I know to check are: Cam bearing diameter, Cam bearing size,
or
a bent cam. Anything else I'm missing or need to check? I'd like to get
all my
facts together before I contact the machine shop.

Ted,

Sounds like a lobe hitting. Can you rotate the cam while pushing back gently
and see if it goes on back. Seems like I ran into this on my son's MC.

- -- John
jlagrone ford-trucks.com
1979 F150 Custom LWB Regular Cab 351M C6 (Henry)
http://www.ford-trucks.com/jlagrone/henry.home.htm
Dearborn iron rules!!!!
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 09:04:52 -0600
From: "John LaGrone"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Clutches and things...

>>What's up with the neutral at stop lights ? If the clutch is
disengaged, then there should be no power transfer because slippage
will be 100% and there will be no contact right ? Actually I would
think letting the clutch out at the light would be one more engage
point and another chance for some more wear ... in actuality I don't
think whether you hold it in at the light or put it in neutral has
any effect on the clutch itself ... your leg maybe, but not the
clutch.

Bill,

It is my understanding that in Texas it is illegal to sit at a light with
the clutch depressed. I believe the law says that you are supposed to sit in
nuetral with the clutch out, service brake on. How can the cops tell? No
brake lights and you are rolling up and down the incline. One more reason to
drive an a-u-t-o-m-a-t-i-c.

- -- John
jlagrone ford-trucks.com
1979 F150 Custom LWB Regular Cab 351M C6 (Henry)
http://www.ford-trucks.com/jlagrone/henry.home.htm
Dearborn iron rules!!!!
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 09:28:26 -0600
From: Craig Cantrell
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Re: Dead Cylinder

Pull the spark plug wires one at a time until you find one that seems to run
just as good without it. Investigte from there.

"William S. Hart" wrote:

> > What is the best way to check if you have a dead cylinder?`
> >
>
> Well it depends if its totally dead or only mostly dead ...
> What's the difference ?
> Well if he's totally dead all you can do is rifle his pockets and look for
> loose change ...
>
> Anyway what do you mean by dead ? Its not firing ever, or it misses or it
> just makes funny noises ?
>
> Probably the first step would be to pull the plug and see what it looks like
> ... black and oily, plug in a compression tester and see what the various
> cylinders are getting for pressure ...
>
> If the plug is rounded and in bad shape, it might just be time for new plugs
> ... and of course there's the usual caprotorcondensorpoints tune up on the
> older non Duraspark trucks ...
>
> Any more info you could provide might be useful ...
>
> Just my $.02
> wish
>
> 96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
> 73ish 1/2ton 4x4 6.4L
> http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish
>

- --
Craig
- --
1997 Cobra Convertible--#2149
"Naw Jaw"--Pacific Green/Saddle/Saddle
President, South Central Kansas Mustang Club
See us at: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://home.kscable.com/sckmc


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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:28:29 -0500
From: tfreeman murphyfarms.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - FE Cam Installation

No problems here. I do have the gear towards the front of the motor.

I've watched you guys work for a while. I usually stay kind of quite and let
the people talk that has something to say. I, for one, appreciate your input.

Thanks,

- -Ted



Another possibility.(very remote, and don't think I'm
flaming you) Are you putting the cam in backwards?
The gear goes to the front. I have a friend who
called me once with the same problem. He had built
quite a few engines too, but it turned out he was
thinking Ch*vy and tried to put the cam in backwards
with the gear to the back. This is not meant to be an
insult, or a smart*** reply, and please don't take it
as such. Just a thought.

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:33:44 -0500
From: tfreeman murphyfarms.com
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - FE Cam Installation

I talked with a lot of people on my cam choice. I figured since I was going to
stroke the motor, I could run more cam. Most folks I've talked with like this
particular cam. I can't wait to feel the difference!

- -Ted



> The cam is a 275H from Comp Cams. 275intake/285exhaust with a
> little .5" lift
> at the valve. Should be a fairly common grind. I think the
> 428's run something
> similar, not sure though.
>

I think you'll be quite happy with that cam. I've got a similar one in the
390 build up I did and it runs like a champ ... I love it :)

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4 6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 09:34:24 CST
From: "Arnie G-well"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Clutches and things...

Hi, I am new to the list but I just couldn't hold back any more.
A-u-t-o-m-a-t-i-c's are for people that let the truck drive them, Standards
for the the people that enjoy real driving. That is if you can master the
clutch (You know there are people out there that cannot).



From: "John LaGrone"
Reply-To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
To: "-FordTruckDigest"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Clutches and things...
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 09:04:52 -0600

>>What's up with the neutral at stop lights ? If the clutch is
disengaged, then there should be no power transfer because slippage
will be 100% and there will be no contact right ? Actually I would
think letting the clutch out at the light would be one more engage
point and another chance for some more wear ... in actuality I don't
think whether you hold it in at the light or put it in neutral has
any effect on the clutch itself ... your leg maybe, but not the
clutch.

Bill,

It is my understanding that in Texas it is illegal to sit at a light with
the clutch depressed. I believe the law says that you are supposed to sit in
nuetral with the clutch out, service brake on. How can the cops tell? No
brake lights and you are rolling up and down the incline. One more reason to
drive an a-u-t-o-m-a-t-i-c.

- -- John
jlagrone ford-trucks.com
1979 F150 Custom LWB Regular Cab 351M C6 (Henry)
http://www.ford-trucks.com/jlagrone/henry.home.htm
Dearborn iron rules!!!!
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 09:25:12 -0600
From: "John LaGrone"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Mileage and Vacuum

>>The main reason the exhaust cross over is there is to super
heat the center of the plenum floor to instantly frizz the fuel droplets
into a vapor and the warm coolant coursing through the "Wet" manifold is
primarily for the purpose of keeping the runners hot so the droplets won't
condense on the sides before reaching the valves.

Now, Gary, we usually agree, but this time I am going to initiate a dialog
on this statement. The hot air crossover is only functional during warm up
while the exhaust heat riser valve on one bank is closed. When both exhausts
are wide open, there isn't a pressure differential to send anything through
there. During warm up, the coolant isn't warm enough to help vapor the fuel.
After warm up, the coolant temperature is substantially below that of the
engine. AFAIK, the only place where the coolant dissipates heat on purpose
is the heater core and the radiator. I need some more thermodynamic (not a
hojo term) evidence to convince me.

- -- John
jlagrone ford-trucks.com
1979 F150 Custom LWB Regular Cab 351M C6 (Henry)
http://www.ford-trucks.com/jlagrone/henry.home.htm
Dearborn iron rules!!!!
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 09:36:39 -0600
From: "John LaGrone"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - 302 info needed

>>Ok, I own a 1988 Lincoln Town Car, with a 302 in it. I'm assuming it's the
same one they put in the trucks, so don't bite my head off :). I was just
wondering, is this a Windsor? I'm thinking of hopping up the engine somewhat
:), and don't say that this doesn't relate to Ford trucks, cause I'm also
thinking about putting one in my truck.

Nice car, Eric. I also own an 88 Towncar. I am interested in hearing what
you do to it.

- -- John
jlagrone ford-trucks.com
1979 F150 Custom LWB Regular Cab 351M C6 (Henry)
http://www.ford-trucks.com/jlagrone/henry.home.htm
Dearborn iron rules!!!!
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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:37:16 -0500
From: tfreeman murphyfarms.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - cam installaion

I've tried this. It rotates smoothly, but doesn't go back any farther. I'm
going to try again tonight, just to make sure I'm not doing something weird.
For some reason I get nervous trying to slide this thing in place.

- -Ted



>>The only things I know to check are: Cam bearing diameter, Cam bearing size,
or
a bent cam. Anything else I'm missing or need to check? I'd like to get
all my
facts together before I contact the machine shop.

Ted,

Sounds like a lobe hitting. Can you rotate the cam while pushing back gently
and see if it goes on back. Seems like I ran into this on my son's MC.

- -- John
jlagrone ford-trucks.com
1979 F150 Custom LWB Regular Cab 351M C6 (Henry)
http://www.ford-trucks.com/jlagrone/henry.home.htm
Dearborn iron rules!!!!
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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:43:40 -0600
From: "William S. Hart"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - Clutches and things...

> It is my understanding that in Texas it is illegal to sit at a light with
> the clutch depressed. I believe the law says that you are
> supposed to sit in
> nuetral with the clutch out, service brake on. How can the cops tell? No
> brake lights and you are rolling up and down the incline. One
> more reason to
> drive an a-u-t-o-m-a-t-i-c.
>

HAHAHAHAHA ... John PLEASE tell me you are joking on this one... I'm
laughing so hard that it might just be true ... how on Earth could you get a
good launch starting from that position? You'd lose every race ... er uhm,
you'd be really slow takin off ... and that could frustrate hyper people ...
yeah that's it ... ;)

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4 6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:28:31 -0500
From: "Clem Salek"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - Clutches and things...










By "newer" trannies, I meant newly rebuilt, with low miles on them. When
they're tight, shifting this requires a bit more "precision". Although,
your point on the late model units is well taken, and the "hanging revs"
scenario would make the clutch-less shifts more difficult.

Clem
"Recon Unit 1"
'79 F350,460,NP435
10ton PTO Winch


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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 07:55:57 -0800
From: "Hogan, Tom"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - Clutches and things...

I used to think that way. Then I moved to the San Francisco bay area for 8
years. Those traffic jams changed my mind. I like selecting my own gears
as much as the next guy and I like compression braking to save wear on the
binders; but with the traffic there I would have felt like I was on a rowing
machine! ;0)

Tom H

PS When I want to select my own gears that's what the "2" and "1" are for.
At least Ford got it right and "2" really locks into 2nd gear... not like
that other manufacturer.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Arnie G-well [mailto:arny_f250 hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 10:34 AM
To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Clutches and things...


Hi, I am new to the list but I just couldn't hold back any more.
A-u-t-o-m-a-t-i-c's are for people that let the truck drive them, Standards
for the the people that enjoy real driving. That is if you can master the
clutch (You know there are people out there that cannot).



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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 09:55:08 -0600
From: David.R.John deluxe.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - C6 tranny questions

I am adding an auxilary tranny cooler to my C6 tranny and I was wondering
if anyone knows off hand which line coming off of the tranny is the outlet
and which is the inlet. If someone could tell me in regards to the front
line is ______ and the rear line is _____ with respect to how they come off
of the tranny that would be great.

Also does the tranny cooler go before the fluid gets to the radiator or
after, seems that someone told me after, that way the fluid gets warmed up
first in cold conditions.

Thanks again!!!!

Also thanks to all who responded to the stiff stearing question, I am going
to see if I can get some WD40 on the rear joint and see if that frees
things up.

David John
78 F250 4x4 Supercab 460 C6
78 F250 4x4

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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:39:45 -0500
From: "Clem Salek"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - Clutches and things...









Hmmmmm...Come up with about 12 more "reasons" to go with the slushbox...Then
maybe (just maybe) I'll listen...

Clem
"Recon Unit 1"
'79 F350,460,NP435
10ton PTO Winch

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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:14:05 -0500
From: "Peters, Gary (G.R.)"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - C6 tranny questions

Seals in the Ujoint will discourage any from getting in. A good penetrating
oil might work but I had to beat mine into submission :-( Don't try this at
home though if you plan to keep the ujoint. I have some blacksmith
experience :-)

- --
Michigan, Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.thewowfactor.com/bigbroncos/detail.cfm?detailid=167
- --

> Also thanks to all who responded to the stiff stearing
> question, I am going
> to see if I can get some WD40 on the rear joint and see if that frees
> things up.
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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:14:43 -0600
From: "Jeffery Hansen"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - re:vibration problem

I have to object to the thinking the vibration would get worse at higher
rpms. If you will recall my posts last fall about the vibration that
developed in "The Muny Pit" - it developed a vibration that was horrendous
at 1800-2200 rpms that shook the whole truck, with windows rattling, cd
player skipping - above that - it smoothed out conciderable - was there -
but more refined - a smooth, barely detectable vibration. Taking the
transmission out found the pilot bearing worn oblonged, input shaft bearing
shot, with the clutch being about 1/8th off center. If the flex plate is
wrong - i.e. one for an externally balenced engine on an internally balenced
engine, or vice versa - it would vibrate enough to be felt at lower rpms but
smooth out at higher rpms - some physics and laws of nature thing - with the
engine absorbing the viration instead of throwing it off and being felt.
Just like set of out of balence tires - hit a certain mph and have a set
shake your steering wheel so bad you could barely hold on - but then smooth
out above a certain mph? Same principle - bottom line is: You gotta look at
everything and admit that which you don't want to - like I knew it was
coming from the clutch - but didn't want to admit it. Drain and flush the
torque converter - could be that grey band sludge in there stuck to one
side.
Jeffery A. Hansen, HMC(SW/AW/FMF) USN
Independent Duty Hospital Corpsman
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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:26:08 +0100
From: "Bill Brox"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - 302 info needed

A 302 is not the same as a 351Windsor..... they share valve covers,
camshafts can be interchanged but also need to change ign. sequense.
Lot of things are equal, many are similar, but there are also some major
things that will never interchange.
The block is totally different, a 302 block can never be modified to become
a 351Windsor block, and a 351 Windsor block can never be modified to become
a 302 block. If I recall correctly the deck height of a 351 W block is one
and a quart inch taller than the regular small block (302 etc.)
This means that also the intake manifold are totally different, wider on
the 351W.
Then, in the lower end, they are also totally different, the 302 has a
lightweight and small crank, while the 351W has a heavy and much larger
crank. Main bearing dia. of the 351W is the same as 351M and 400 and also
460 engine if I am not wrong.

Both engines are great engines, if you look for an economy engine, little
hauling and so the 302 will do fine. If you have a truck, lot of hauling,
or uphill driving with heavy loads I would recommend a 351W.

But as I said, you can not "make" a 351W out of a 302. It is possible to
stroke the 302 to 351 cubic inches... but it will in my opinion be to prove
something or racing for some reason. It will not be an engine to last for
several 100k miles... if you see my point.

A 302 can be "hopped" up a bit as you put it, but don't expect to see the
torque figures you would with a 351W. Just so you don't get disappointed.


Bill Brox




- ----------
> From: Eric Washburn
> To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: FTE 61-79 - 302 info needed
> Date: 1. november 1999 04:33
>
> Ok, I own a 1988 Lincoln Town Car, with a 302 in it. I'm assuming it's
the
> same one they put in the trucks, so don't bite my head off :). I was just
> wondering, is this a Windsor? I'm thinking of hopping up the engine
somewhat
> :), and don't say that this doesn't relate to Ford trucks, cause I'm also
> thinking about putting one in my truck.
>
>
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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:36:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Lee
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re:Re: Vibration Problem

Rich,
It sounds exactly like my 351C with the bad valve
seats.

Dan Lee
'53 F100
400C-4V

>Rich:With vibration all of the time, there are a few
>possibilities:
>1. Harmonic balancer out of balance (on front of
>engine)2. Broken motor mounts
>3. Torque converter out of balance
>4. One or more dead cylinders (could be a mechanical
>cause or simplyan
>ignition issue).Hope this helps.Tim BowmanBurien,
>WA71 F100Rich wrote:
>It shakes all the time, not only when it is in gear.
>What does that sound like to you?


=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:36:08 -0500
From: "Peters, Gary (G.R.)"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - Clutches and things...

I have both in a truck, the pickup has the 460/C-6 combo and the bronco has
the 351M/400/Np435 combo and I like both of them for different reasons. For
just hauling down the road, driving around town or cruising I like the
pickup with it's automatic. For winter, snowy days, ice and slush there is
no alternative to the NP435 IMNSHO but for a daily driver give me the wide
ratio C-6.

In the pickup on a rainy day that second gear comes in handy if I want to
make a quick crossing at an intersection since low simply spins the tires
while the truck sits there. By putting it in second I get just enough
resistance to soften the torque so I can "Squirt" across the road safely :-)
Remember this truck has 2.75 gears too :-)

With the 460 the C-6 is also much more reliable if you abuse it, if you have
a temper or if you crawl around on rocks because it will absorb the
tremendous torque inputs without breaking the tranny or rippping out the
driveshafts quite as easily as the sudden, harsh jolt of the manuals. My
wide ratio C-6 currently in the pickup will go as hard or as soft as I want,
has over 200k miles on it and never been touched, still shifts like new and
I don't baby my trucks :-) The NP435 that was in the bronco is shot,
syncros, bearings all gone at about 150k. Second one, a rebuild has no
second gear syncros but otherwise is pretty solid. The C-6 I had in the van
started life in an older truck of some kind, got a clutch and seal overhaul,
and run with the 460 for many years with no problems. This truck was not
babied either. I used to back up to a dozed log jam, hook on to a log with
1/2" chain and nail the gas to yank them out of the pile. Never broke
anything and the van had the wimpy 28 spline, LS hieney. I wouldn't have
even attempted to do that with a stick of any kind but the stick does have a
place of honor in the scheme of things so don't discount it, depending on
your application :-)
- --
Michigan, Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.thewowfactor.com/bigbroncos/detail.cfm?detailid=167
- --

> I like selecting
> my own gears
> as much as the next guy and I like compression braking to
> save wear on the
> binders; but with the traffic there I would have felt like I
> was on a rowing
> machine! ;0)
>
> PS When I want to select my own gears that's what the "2" and
> "1" are for.
> At least Ford got it right and "2" really locks into 2nd
> gear... not like
> that other manufacturer.
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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:39:41 -0600
From: "Jeffery Hansen"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - FE Cam Installation

This summer when I was rebuilding the '69 429 in "The Muny Pit" I had the
very same thing happen - only it was stuck solid in the #2 bearing. The
first went in fine and smooth going very carefully, very slowly. Got to #2,
about half way through it just grabbed. And I mean GRABBED. Took two of us
pulling - another twisting the end with a large screwdriver to get it to pop
free. Called the machine shop - took it in to him and he looked at it. Got
into a rather heated debate about what "I" did to the bearings (when it
popped free we destroyed the number one) Reading "How to Rebuild Your Big
Block Ford" will descibe what probably happened on you cam bearing install.
Because you're talking about thousandths of an inch clearence and the
bearings are very soft - it's not unusual to close that clearence in the
install process if you drive them in too hard or fast and don't take it slow
and light. We ended our debate with him eating a new bearing set, me paying
him to install the cam.
Jeffery A. Hansen, HMC(SW/AW/FMF) USN
Independent Duty Hospital Corpsman
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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:58:17 -0500
From: tfreeman murphyfarms.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - FE Cam Installation

Hiya Cheif!,

I'm going to try again to install the cam tonight. If that doesn't work, I'll
call the machine shop tomorrow and take the motor to him on Thursday. My
machinist has been good so far. I just hope he stands behind his work. If I
take the motor to him, I'm going to have him install the cam and degree it for
me.

- -Ted Freeman
FTB3 (SS) U.S. Navy-Honorable Discharged!





"Jeffery Hansen" on 11/02/99 11:39:41 AM

Please respond to 61-79-list ford-trucks.com

To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
cc: (bcc: Ted Freeman/MURPHY_FAMILY_FARMS)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - FE Cam Installation




This summer when I was rebuilding the '69 429 in "The Muny Pit" I had the
very same thing happen - only it was stuck solid in the #2 bearing. The
first went in fine and smooth going very carefully, very slowly. Got to #2,
about half way through it just grabbed. And I mean GRABBED. Took two of us
pulling - another twisting the end with a large screwdriver to get it to pop
free. Called the machine shop - took it in to him and he looked at it. Got
into a rather heated debate about what "I" did to the bearings (when it
popped free we destroyed the number one) Reading "How to Rebuild Your Big
Block Ford" will descibe what probably happened on you cam bearing install.
Because you're talking about thousandths of an inch clearence and the
bearings are very soft - it's not unusual to close that clearence in the
install process if you drive them in too hard or fast and don't take it slow
and light. We ended our debate with him eating a new bearing set, me paying
him to install the cam.
Jeffery A. Hansen, HMC(SW/AW/FMF) USN
Independent Duty Hospital Corpsman
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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:09:52 -0600
From: "William S. Hart"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - Clutches and things...

> I have both in a truck,

Wow, I guess that's what you call redundant systems ...


> the pickup has the 460/C-6 combo and the
> bronco has
> the 351M/400/Np435 combo and I like both of them for different
> reasons.

OHHHHHH ... you have a truck with each, gotcha ;)


> just hauling down the road, driving around town or cruising I like the
> pickup with it's automatic. For winter, snowy days, ice and
> slush there is
> no alternative to the NP435 IMNSHO but for a daily driver give me the wide
> ratio C-6.
>
Isn't your pickup a 2wd ? So wouldn't that change things for the snow and
ice quite a bit whether it was an auto or a manual ? That's like saying I
love my truck in the winter 'cause its an auto and I don't have to worry
about shifting while I'm going through the snow, but really its no
comparison since the other one's handicap isn't the tranny, its the 6" of
ground clearance (optimistically 6 at that)

> place of honor in the scheme of things so don't discount it, depending on
> your application :-)

I think this along with personal preference is the answer to the whole
auto/stick debate ... we get to sit through that on all these lists, and the
'stang lists, it just gets old, and no one's gonna solve it ... not even
Porsche with its "tiptronics" or Dodge with the "auto stick" or whatever
other names they come up with to eliminate the users need for a foot
operated clutch ... some people like the stick, some people don't ...

Anyway take it for what its worth...

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4 6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 12:02:13 -0500
From: "Peters, Gary (G.R.)"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - Mileage and Vacuum

You may very well be correct on some of this but you have to agree that it
certainly has an effect on the warmup of the engine :-) I don't know when
the "heat riser" disappeared but I havn't seen one of those on anything
since the late 60's yet all my engines have cross overs, some quite large.
They feed the EGR valve on most V-8's as well as creating the hot spot. The
coolant flow through the manifold maintains a "constant", relatively warm
temp and tends to keep the walls warmer than the charge even under WOT
conditions so condensation won't happen :-) It doesn't necessaryily warm
the charge itself but prevents the fuel from dropping out of suspension due
to condensing against the walls. The coolant temp may be "substantially"
lower than engine temp but what part of the engine? It is still warmer than
ambient air so adds to the temp of the manifold walls. If you pass 180
degree coolant past a metal part that can potentially become cooler than
that it will absorb heat to maintain it's temp very close to that of the
coolant. 180 degrees is certainly warm enough to keep the fuel in
suspension, eh?

Since the EGR only has "flow" at settings other than idle or cruise it would
seem to be a paradox without the manifold riser, eh? Course then you always
still have your "hot air intake" to warm things up :-)

Hot mixture burns much cleaner and more efficiently than cold mixture.
Smokey Yanuk proved that with his 240 hp, 40 mpg 4 cylinder test car. He
used a series of "Grinder" pumps to atomize the fuel, a heater to bring the
charge within a few degrees of detonation and a super or turbo charger to
compress the hot gasses into approximately the same density as a cold charge
to achieve this performance. The parts to do this were way too complex to
be marketable but it served to prove a few theories about atomization and
temperature.

- --
Michigan, Pot Hole Jumping,
78 Bronco Loving, Gary
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.thewowfactor.com/bigbroncos/detail.cfm?detailid=167
- --

> Now, Gary, we usually agree, but this time I am going to
> initiate a dialog
> on this statement. The hot air crossover is only functional
> during warm up
> while the exhaust heat riser valve on one bank is closed.
> When both exhausts
> are wide open, there isn't a pressure differential to send
> anything through
> there. During warm up, the coolant isn't warm enough to help
> vapor the fuel.
> After warm up, the coolant temperature is substantially below
> that of the
> engine.
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:19:45 -0700
From: William Whited
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - C6 tranny questions

On mine the cooler is after the rad one. Also if you install it after the rad
does it really matter which line is in and out? Mine is hooked up on the
passenger side of the rad. Come to think about I think that it is the exit
side.

William Whited
74 F100 Ranger Supercab 390
77 F150 Custom 460

David.R.John deluxe.com wrote:

> I am adding an auxilary tranny cooler to my C6 tranny and I was wondering
> if anyone knows off hand which line coming off of the tranny is the outlet
> and which is the inlet. If someone could tell me in regards to the front
> line is ______ and the rear line is _____ with respect to how they come off
> of the tranny that would be great.
>
> Also does the tranny cooler go before the fluid gets to the radiator or
> after, seems that someone told me after, that way the fluid gets warmed up
> first in cold conditions.
>
> Thanks again!!!!
>
> Also thanks to all who responded to the stiff stearing question, I am going
> to see if I can get some WD40 on the rear joint and see if that frees
> things up.
>
> David John
> 78 F250 4x4 Supercab 460 C6
> 78 F250 4x4
>
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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:44:46 -0600
From: "William S. Hart"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - C6 tranny questions

> On mine the cooler is after the rad one. Also if you install it
> after the rad
> does it really matter which line is in and out?

Uhm yeah, 'cause one'll be right out of the tranny, the other will be right
out of the radiator, in is warmer than out right ? you want to cool the out
portion if I remember right ..

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4 6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:43:32 -0600
From: "William S. Hart"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - Mileage and Vacuum

> You may very well be correct on some of this but you have to agree that it
> certainly has an effect on the warmup of the engine :-) I don't know when
> the "heat riser" disappeared but I havn't seen one of those on anything
> since the late 60's yet all my engines have cross overs, some quite large.

What exactly are you calling the heat riser ? That hose piece from the
exhaust manifold to the intake that I took off my g.f's 92 Mustang ?

Or the flapper valve in my exhaust on the driver's side of the truck (a 74,
not a late 60's) ...

> They feed the EGR valve on most V-8's as well as creating the hot
> spot. The
> coolant flow through the manifold maintains a "constant", relatively warm
> temp and tends to keep the walls warmer than the charge even under WOT
> conditions so condensation won't happen :-)

Are these designed in there, or just happenstance is my question ... my FE
has a baseplate that passes coolant through it too, I kind of like it as it
will assure that my carb is always at the same temp (or near it) no matter
what the outside air has in mind ... since the manifold is a 65, I don't
really think it was anything to do with emissions ...


> It doesn't necessaryily warm
> the charge itself but prevents the fuel from dropping out of
> suspension due
> to condensing against the walls.

I think we can all pretty much agree that things are moving through there
too fast for there to be an appreciable amount of heat exchange ... but at
low speeds, that's where it will kill you ... low revs rather, not
necessarily low speeds ... also you've got me wondering, if that's in there
to keep the fuel from dropping out of suspension, then why even bother on
fuel injected cars ? The injectors are right near the valve and don't have
to worry about manifold temps at all... Also i don't see 6's worrying about
putting coolant out there under the carb ... I'm beginnin to think this is a
function of V8 design and putting the carb in the middle of a heat source
... not so much worrying about keeping the carb warm as keeping it cool ...


> The coolant temp may be "substantially"
> lower than engine temp but what part of the engine? It is still
> warmer than
> ambient air so adds to the temp of the manifold walls.

So why bother with a temp gauge then, they just lie and only give you the
manifold temp, we should just ditch them, they are just adding heat by
putting a resistor in line with the fuel system, heat that resistor it'll
add to the heat on the coolant too, maybe that's why we're all overheating
so much, all those sensors are adding to it ...


> If you pass 180
> degree coolant past a metal part that can potentially become cooler than
> that it will absorb heat to maintain it's temp very close to that of the
> coolant.

Not true ... if you pass 180 degree coolant past 190 degree metal, no matter
if that can potentially be cooler or not, it is still 190 so the heat
exchange will be the reverse of what you just implied ... heat always
"flows" from warm to cold, doesn't matter what the potentials are, it
matters what they are when they come in contact ...

> 180 degrees is certainly warm enough to keep the fuel in
> suspension, eh?
>

Uhm .. yeah, but wouldn't it be enough to make the fuel a vapor too? And....


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