From: owner-61-79-list-digest ford-trucks.com (61-79-list-digest)
To: 61-79-list-digest ford-trucks.com
Subject: 61-79-list-digest V3 #263
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61-79-list-digest Wednesday, July 28 1999 Volume 03 : Number 263



=======================================================================
Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1961-1979 Trucks and Vans
Visit our web site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/
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In this issue:

Re: FTE 61-79 - Was Various--Now C6 vs. Cruise-O-Matic ID
FTE 61-79 - Bent Pushrod
FTE 61-79 - 428 block prices, was (Sonic checking
FTE 61-79 - Floor Shifter ? 78 F-150
FTE 61-79 - air intake
FTE 61-79 - Predator Carberator
FTE 61-79 - air intake
Re: FTE 61-79 - Bent Pushrod
Re: FTE 61-79 - Engine won't crank..kinda long
FTE 61-79 - What is a Cruise-O-Matic, was Various
Re: FTE 61-79 - Brake lights.
Re: FTE 61-79 - What is a Cruise-O-Matic, was Various
Re: FTE 61-79 - air intake
Re: FTE 61-79 - What is a Cruise-O-Matic, was Various
FTE 61-79 - '68 F-100 Turn Signals
FTE 61-79 - While we're talking about charging systems
FTE 61-79 - Engine won't crank..kinda long
Re: FTE 61-79 - Engine won't crank..kinda long
FTE 61-79 - Re: floor shifter
Re: FTE 61-79 - Engine won't crank..kinda long
FTE 61-79 - Re: anti-theft devices
FTE 61-79 - Similiarties of FOMOCO automatics
Re: FTE 61-79 - hot truck
Re: FTE 61-79 - anti theft devices
Re: FTE 61-79 - RE: Help with Guages
Re: FTE 61-79 - RE: vacuum advance (ignition)
Re: FTE 61-79 - *compact* spare
Re: FTE 61-79 - vacuum advance (ignition)
Re: FTE 61-79 - vacuum advance (ignition)
FTE 61-79 - torgue converter swaps
FTE 61-79 - Won't crank
Re: FTE 61-79 - anti theft devices
RE: FTE 61-79 - anti theft devices
Re: FTE 61-79 - anti theft devices
FTE 61-79 - deal on a '77 F250
FTE 61-79 - Re: hot truck
RE: FTE 61-79 - anti theft devices
RE: FTE 61-79 - Re: hot truck
Re: FTE 61-79 - anti theft devices
Re: FTE 61-79 - *compact* spare

=======================================================================

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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:35:44 EDT
From: TBeeee aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Was Various--Now C6 vs. Cruise-O-Matic ID

In a message dated 7/27/99 11:35:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ses home.com
writes:

> Thanks, I will crawl under tomorrow.
> Nice web page, BTW.

Your welcome Steve and thanks for the compliment. I hope to have as much
technical information on my page as I can. Each month I try to add at least
one new item. Any suggestions for improvements are always welcome.

Stock Man
1967 Galaxie 500 Convertible (HELP!---I need 15 x5 factory rims)
1967 F-250 FE 390 4wd
www.hometown.aol.com/tbeeee
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:31:00 EDT
From: GMontgo930 aol.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Bent Pushrod

Ive got a 79 Bronco with a 400M & 170k miles on the original motor. While I
know it's approaching time for a rebuild, I recently bent the #2 intake
pushrod to the point where it fell out along with the lifter. Needless to say
I didn't go much further with no oil pressure.

My Biggest question is what would cause an engine to bend a pushrod like
that? Ive never seen it before and had many hi mileage engines. It wasn't
driven hard, 70 MPH cruise on the freeway down towards Miami. If yall can
shed some light on this it'd be great. I know how to fix the motor.

George
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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:37:28 -0500
From: Stu Varner
Subject: FTE 61-79 - 428 block prices, was (Sonic checking

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:27:07 -0500
From: ballingr ldd.net (William L. Ballinger)
X-Accept-Language: en
To: Ford Truck Enthusiasts
Subject: FTE 61-79 - FE cylinder walls (Sonic Checking
Sender: owner-61-79-list ford-trucks.com
Reply-To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com

> > I've got a couple of 390 blocks that I'm going to
> > have sonic checked this week.
>
> How much does it cost per block? All the conventional wisdom I heard on
this
> subject says to put the money towards a 428 block as .080 is too thin and
> even if you don't go through the walls it will change the characteristics
of
> the block leading to over-heating, warpage, etc. etc. I hear that a
> serviceable 428 block goes between $500-1000. That's much cheaper than all
> that time, money and heart-ache you'll waste on a 390 block.

I do know of a place where brand new 428 service blocks in FoMoCo boxes can
be had for $1150 US dollars.
The guy is in Homeworth, Ohio, telephone/fax 330.525.7291

I think CJ (Col. Jeff) may have done some business with them before. You
might want to ask him.

Later,

Stu
Nuke GM!
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.pscco.com/stu


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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:45:33 -0500
From: ballingr ldd.net (William L. Ballinger)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Floor Shifter ? 78 F-150

> Early = 65-73 ... Cougars also used the same gear shift, I'm sure a number
> of others with floor shifts did as well ... though I can't think of any off
> hand...you can get them from aftermarket places in the 'stang rags too ...
> I would worry that the shifter is going to be REALLY short, maybe something
> with a longer reach is in order ? Also you're worried about cutting a
> hole, I assume that means you've got a 4x2 ... maybe if you grabbed a 4x4
> floor section (they just bolt in) you wouldn't feel as bad getting a
> shifter that needed a larger hole ... that or one from a manual tranny may
> also be used, just have to check the heights...

I've seen some of those original Ford T-handle shifters that were longer
than the Mustang one. The earlier Aerostars I think had a long stick
that was still a T-handle, and the Ranger/ Bronco II's also.

I had a '73 Mustang shifter in my '67 F100, and it was a little short,
another 2-3 inches would have helped a lot. It worked fine for over 10
years with a new set of bushings, you just had to reach down for it.
The B&M Mega Shifter is neat too, if you want an aftermarket shifter.
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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:48:14 -0500
From: "John LaGrone"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - air intake

>>John,
I have been wondering how effective this really is. Can I talk you into
running a couple of tanks with the air cleaner getting its air from inside
the engine compartment and seeing how your gas mileage changes?

Nope.

The way I drive (mostly in city traffic, very short trips), I doubt it would
make much difference.

When I got the truck the hose was gone, so it was breathing under hood air.
It runs better in all respects the way it is now. I don't know whether it is
the air temp or the ram action or my imagination. I never could find the
right hose in a parts house. Although it is listed, no one ever had one and
they wouldn't order it. Except one guy and he wanted $30. Ouch! I went to
Lowe's and bought some aluminum foil type dryer vent hose. Fits perfect for
under $4.

I did try turning the air cleaner top over once, making the air cleaner an
open element. It didn't help anything, but did increase the noise level.

- -- John
jlagrone ford-trucks.com
1979 F150 Custom LWB Regular Cab 351M C6 (Henry)
http://www.ford-trucks.com/jlagrone/henry.home.htm
Dearborn iron rules!!!!

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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:07:08 -0500
From: ballingr ldd.net (William L. Ballinger)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Predator Carberator

> A friend of mine recommended using a Predator carberator on my 78 351 M.
> I
> am looking for some input from people on these carberators?
>
> if I remember right, these carbs are nice because they have a variable
> venturi that allows you to change/control the cfm. but they also have a
> reputation for using tons of gas, they prettymuch just dump gas down the
> intake, from what I hear. they are very simple carbs.

About like taking a boat fuel tank and sticking the line down the
intake and squeezing the primer bulb to keep it running. Well maybe
I'm exagerrating a little...:-)

They are made to be used like a double-pumper Holley, a light switch
that controls fuel. I'd still take the Holley in that application,
because of tune-ability issues. I heard of them being used on the
street, but really, there are better street carbs. (a Quadrajet in my
book is the best of all) And the 850 double-pumper is a better race
carb. A shame because Predators look tough, especially a pair of them
on an FE with pent-roof chrome valve covers.
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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:23:17 -0500
From: ballingr ldd.net (William L. Ballinger)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - air intake

> Just look at people's quarter mile times and such ... they will drop if
> several runs are made in quick succession without cooldown periods ...
> during autocrossing they found that putting the headlights up on a miata
> (old style) would reduce intake temps by 15deg! So then everyone decided
> they needed that extra one or 2 horses and ran that way ...

They likely run faster as the oil temp goes up, there's 20 hp to be had
by pushing your oil to it's thinnest. I have friend with a rail that
runs straight 10-20wt(according to temperature outside), and only makes
5 lbs of oil pressure at the line. He used to run for Chr*sler back in
the '60's with Herb McCandless in Super Stock H*mi C*da's, and they
figured out back then that oil pressure ate power. He experimented and
got down to the least you can get away with, (Lingenfelter builds his
engines now, so you know a whoops is expensive)and has done pretty good
through the years for a hobbyist.
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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:20:51 -0500
From: William S Hart
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Bent Pushrod

>My Biggest question is what would cause an engine to bend a pushrod like
>that? Ive never seen it before and had many hi mileage engines. It wasn't
>driven hard, 70 MPH cruise on the freeway down towards Miami. If yall can
>shed some light on this it'd be great. I know how to fix the motor.
>
Usually the only way to bend a pushrod is to cause something to slam into
it hard, that could only be one of two things. a) the piston hit the valve
or b) the valve floated momentarily.

I think you would have heard either of these. And it may not sound like
you were doing much (70mph on the freeway that is), but on some of these
old trucks, with the wrong sized tires and a towing rear end, you can
really get the rev's up there before you know it... Check your valve
springs, make sure none of them are cracked/broken, that could cause a
valve float also. A motor with this many miles on it may just be getting
tired, so the springs could be getting weak ... I'm not an M-block guy like
Dave R though, maybe he knows of something that's prone to happen in these ...

Do you have a tach to see how many revs you are pulling ? Might want to
wire one up briefly just to see ...


Just my 2cents

wish

Links http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/links.html
'73 1/2 ton 4x4 Ford http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/truck.html
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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:24:10 -0500
From: William S Hart
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Engine won't crank..kinda long

>I turned the engine over by hand with a wrench, so engine is not locked
>up,,,,,PLEASE help me, i need to get this fixed, its been 3 weeks
>now,,,,,,and im getting frustrated,,,,
>

Someone else suggested the battery again, have you tried taking your old
battery out and starting it with another known good battery ?


Didn't you also say something about hitting the dash and having the
connection come back ? have you checked the ignition switch and such to be
sure its grounding and not just overloading itself when the solenoid engages ?

Sounds like you've got a weird one there ... sorry its taken you so long to
fix this. My dad's been fighting with his truck almost as long, so I know
how frustrating it is (his was a short in the fuel pump relay! they just
found it yesterday).


Just my 2cents

wish

Links http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/links.html
'73 1/2 ton 4x4 Ford http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/truck.html
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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:25:42 -0500
From: John Strauss
Subject: FTE 61-79 - What is a Cruise-O-Matic, was Various

>>>1) I have a '73 F-250 2wd, with 360, and cruise-o-matic (according to the
>>>orig. owner's manual). Is this trans a C6?
>>>
>>No!!! Cruise-O-Matics are the forerunners of the C6, and I don't remember
>>when they were introduced, but I thought it was prior to '73.
>
>While we are on this, how close is the FMX to the Cruise-o-matic? I've
>been confused about this transmission for some time...
>but what's new?
>
"Cruise-O-Matic" is a Ford term which is applied to all 3-speed automatics
in sales literature. The first 3-speed auto Ford produced was the FMX so
many transmission men refer to this one as the "true" Cruise-O-Matic. At
that time, even Ford repair manuals referred to this trans as the
Cruise-O-Matic, since it was the only 3-speed auto they made then. But
later, when the C4 and C6 were brought out, these also were referred to as
Cruise-O-Matic in sales literature, but not in service manuals AFAIK.
Prior to the FMX, the only Ford automatic was a 2-speed and was called
"Ford-O-Matic".

As far as your '73 F-250 is concerned, I would bet it is a C6.
_
_| ~~. John Strauss
\, *_} jstrauss inetport.com
\( Texas Fight!

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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:26:08 -0500
From: William S Hart
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Brake lights.

>I replaced my turn signal cam and now I have no brake lights and no
>emergency flasher rear lights. The turn signals work fine and the front
>emergency flasher lights work fine. This is on a '79 F-250 FWD with
>cruise and tilt wheel. I have checked all the wires at the turn signal
>switch and the only ones changed were the two on the turn signal cam.
>Any suggestions?
>
Check the fuses, while you were messin around in there its possible you
just momentarily hit something together that's not supposed to be ... also
double check the plugs, make sure they are all really making contact now
... there should be one near the base of the column I think, its possible
just a little tug dislodged something enough that it quit...

Since the brake lights and hazards run on the same circuit (that's why they
stop flashing with the brakes on right ?), its likely something simple
happened while you were in the column.


Just my 2cents

wish

Links http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/links.html
'73 1/2 ton 4x4 Ford http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/truck.html
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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:39:40 -0500
From: William S Hart
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - What is a Cruise-O-Matic, was Various

>"Cruise-O-Matic" is a Ford term which is applied to all 3-speed automatics
>in sales literature.

This I believe totally, funny how terms stick around whether they're really
accurate or not in marketing ....

> The first 3-speed auto Ford produced was the FMX

Uhmmm...I thought the FMX didn't come out until the late 60's as sort of a
small block version of the C6 ... there was a tranny before that that was
not the C4 or C6, but don't know what the name of it was (Cruise-O-Matic ?
:) ... just goin off the little bits and pieces I remember from prior
discussions, the casing was changed from steel to aluminum when they went
to the FMX, along with possibly gear choices and such ? Hmmm...maybe a
hunt through the archives is in order here ...


>As far as your '73 F-250 is concerned, I would bet it is a C6.
>

Yup, gotta go with ya on that one, a heavy duty ap. almost always got the C6.


Just my 2cents

wish

Links http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/links.html
'73 1/2 ton 4x4 Ford http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/truck.html
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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:41:12 -0500
From: William S Hart
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - air intake

>> Just look at people's quarter mile times and such ... they will drop if
>> several runs are made in quick succession without cooldown periods ...
>> during autocrossing they found that putting the headlights up on a miata
>> (old style) would reduce intake temps by 15deg! So then everyone decided
>> they needed that extra one or 2 horses and ran that way ...
>
>They likely run faster as the oil temp goes up, there's 20 hp to be had
>by pushing your oil to it's thinnest. I have friend with a rail that

I said that totally wrong, I meant drop in a bad way, as in they run slower
... this is actually due to underhood temps heating the air before it gets
into the motor, therefore increasing the volume and decreasing the O2
density ...

that old English language comes back to bite me again.


Just my 2cents

wish

Links http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/links.html
'73 1/2 ton 4x4 Ford http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/truck.html
'96 Mustang GT http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/mustang.html
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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:44:49 EDT
From: TBeeee aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - What is a Cruise-O-Matic, was Various

In a message dated 7/28/99 9:27:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jstrauss inetport.com writes:

> "Cruise-O-Matic" is a Ford term which is applied to all 3-speed automatics
> in sales literature.
John:

I would disagree that its become a generic term to refer to the 3-spd
autos. I would agree that most sales lit. I have seen does just mention the
Cruise-O-Matic and not the C4 or C6. This question first came up for me a
few weeks ago in answering CJ's question on which tranny he had in his 1967.
My literature mentions the Cruise-O-Matic and no mention of the C4 or C6.
Yet the shop manual has a section for both the C4 and the HD Cruise-O-Matic.
Also my master parts Illustration catalog has seperate pictures for each of
these trannies (C4, C6 and Cruise-O-Matic). As a side note my Galaxie also
has the Cruise-O-Matic from the factory. I don't want to start a tranny war
but I would welcome any contrary point of view.

Stock Man
1967 Galaxie 500 Convertible (HELP!---I need 15 x5 factory rims)
1967 F-250 FE 390 4wd
www.hometown.aol.com/tbeeee
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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 06:57:37 -0700
From: John Corbett
Subject: FTE 61-79 - '68 F-100 Turn Signals

Before I dismantle my entire steering column in an exploratory... I thought
it might be better to ask someone else. Does a '68 F-100 have
self-canceling turn-signals? Mine either don't work or weren't there to
begin with.
jc
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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:52:29 -0400
From: David Henderson
Subject: FTE 61-79 - While we're talking about charging systems

OK...

While we're talking about charging systems, I have had all sorts of trouble with
the one in Brownie after putting in the new 300 (which, by the way is running
quite nicely after some playing with the distributor. Had to advance it a few
teeth to get enough advance...another story). I already had new battery cables
(whenever I get a new truck, I always replace the belts, hoses, and cables so I
KNOW the last time they were done), but I ended up replacing them all again
(even the ground straps on the block). I have been through two solenoids, two
voltage regulators (external), and one "brain box" (ignition). Now that we
have gone through all of that, here is my question. I have also been through
four different alternators from three different remanufacturers and I'm still
having problems. I have unwrapped all of the wiring and inspected them,
individually (yes, I am that anal). I know I'll get some responses about how
close is my alternator to my headers, but I do not think this is the problem
(3" clearance). What I'm experiencing is the alternator is fine (no idiot light
coming on) at low RPMs, but as soon as I hit about 2200 RPMs, the idiot light
comes on. A test at Advance Auto tells me that the diode pattern is bad
(although good voltage and amps), but experience with their tester has also told
me that if the machine doesn't know what's going on it says "bad diode
pattern". Anyone have any idea what could be causing my problem? Anyone
having trouble following my train of thought ;^)?

Any and all responses will be greatly appreciated!!

Dave H

- --
_
_| ~~. David Henderson
\, _} DHenders VT.Edu
\( Gig 'em Aggies! '93

Currently at:
Interdepartmental Genetics Program
2010 Litton Reaves Hall
Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
Blacksburg, VA 24061
(540)231-4773
(540)231-5014
DHenders VT.Edu
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.dasc.vt.edu/henderson/dhenderson.html
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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:26:49 -0500
From: 3granch ayrix.net
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Engine won't crank..kinda long

Ok, i wrote awhile ago about my engine that decided to run fine for about.....>>

I bought my truck (same as yours except its a 78) five years agao and I had the same problem. I went through 4 alternators and three batteries. Finally I replaced the voltage regulator and the problem was solved. Well until two weeks ago. I had been running my stereo w/o the engine running. Its a Kenwood CD pumping MTX boxes, needless to say I beleive this puts a heavy strain on the charging system. I went through the routine again. New battery, starter selinoid and I was still having problems. A simple check with Autozones machine indicated a negative drain but it was not because of a bad alternator. We replaced the voltage regulator and no more problem. If you replace the voltage regulator, I was told to make sure and mount it to the fender before plugging it in. This way it is grounded and will not ruin the regulator. I hope this helps.

Ronnie Rowton
Braxton, MS
78 F250 4WD 351M NP435
76 F100 Supercab 2WD 360 C6 (will trade 360 or C6 for 351M/400)





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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:42:56 +0200
From: "Bill Brox"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Engine won't crank..kinda long

Hi Ian.

You need a voltmeter,,, then put the pins directly to the batteryposts, and
have some turn the ign. key and try to start. If the voltage drop very much
the battery is dead, need recharging, have a dead cell or something within
the battery. A different battery will fix it, if you can find a friend with
one just to try.
If the voltage does not drop below 10-12 volts there is nothing wrong with
the battery that can cause your trouble.

Hm... I can't recall everything you have tried, not tried or whatever, but
there shall be a thick ground wire from the engine to the frame and body.
Not the ground wire from the engine to the battery. A wire often between
one of the bolts that holds the bellhousing to the engine block, or to one
of the head bolts, or similar.

If this wire is missing, all kind of funny and not so funny trouble will
come. Everything will seem weird. And often, the current seeks a way
through the trottle cable and this can burn off.

Try to look for this and let me know, there is a solution for everything.
And you can't stay without a pickup for weeks,,, that is no point.

So long, Bill


> From: IanBoss69 aol.com
> To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: FTE 61-79 - Engine won't crank..kinda long
> Date: 28. juli 1999 07:15
>
> Ok, i wrote awhile ago about my engine that decided to run fine for about
a
> month after I bought the truck,,,,started fine one morning, went to the
> store, came back out, wouldnt start,,,,,large tow truck tried to jump
> it,,,didnt work,,,guy said it was probably wa the starter,,,,got a new
> starter,,,,didnt start, lights and radio seemed to shut off every time i
> tried to crank the engine, but then would resume their normal operation
if i
> worked on the truck for awhile or left it alone then came back out, kept
> going out every time i tried to start it,,,,took the NEW starter back to
have
> it tested, i talked with the parts guy, said it probably was the
> solenoid,,,,replaced it,,,,no change,,,,replace all the 4 gauge battery
> cables, ground wire, batt to solenoid, and solenoid to starter,,,,no
> change,,,,took a set of jumpers and hooked one end to the starter
terminal
> and touched the other to the pos(+) side of the battery,,,nothing,,,took
a
> piece of the old batt wire (4 gauge) and attached one end to one side of
the
> solenoid,,,,touched the other with the other end of the
> cable,,,,nothing,,,,,,solenoid does click when i turn the key to start
> position though,
> I turned the engine over by hand with a wrench, so engine is not locked
> up,,,,,PLEASE help me, i need to get this fixed, its been 3 weeks
> now,,,,,,and im getting frustrated,,,,
>
> Ian
> 79 F250 4x4 4spd 351M
> members.aol.com/ianboss69/page/home.htm
> True Blue Ford Blue
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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:08:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Lee
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re: floor shifter

I put a 23" Lokar shifter on my C6 in my '53. The
length is great, but I had to use a Dakota Digital
decoder and LED's in my dash to tell me which gear I
am using.
Dan Lee
'53 F100
351C-4V

>>> I used a floor shifter out of an early Mustang to
shift the C6 in my
>> 1970 F100.>>

_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?

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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:23:40 -0500
From: Larry Schmiedekamp
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Engine won't crank..kinda long

Hm... I can't recall everything you have tried, not tried or whatever, but
there shall be a thick ground wire from the engine to the frame and body.
Not the ground wire from the engine to the battery. A wire often between
one of the bolts that holds the bellhousing to the engine block, or to one
of the head bolts, or similar.

I had this setup and still had problems. Was told to put eyelet's (not the
correct disc. but....) big enough for the bolt on the battery term. to go
through and one for the selinod sp. mounting bolt. Bolt it on the neg. term.
bolt and ran to the mounting bolt. No more problems with starter. A little
extra grounding like this might help.








At 04:42 PM 7/28/99 +0200, you wrote:
>Hi Ian.
>
>You need a voltmeter,,, then put the pins directly to the batteryposts, and
>have some turn the ign. key and try to start. If the voltage drop very much
>the battery is dead, need recharging, have a dead cell or something within
>the battery. A different battery will fix it, if you can find a friend with
>one just to try.
>If the voltage does not drop below 10-12 volts there is nothing wrong with
>the battery that can cause your trouble.
>
>Hm... I can't recall everything you have tried, not tried or whatever, but
>there shall be a thick ground wire from the engine to the frame and body.
>Not the ground wire from the engine to the battery. A wire often between
>one of the bolts that holds the bellhousing to the engine block, or to one
>of the head bolts, or similar.
>
>If this wire is missing, all kind of funny and not so funny trouble will
>come. Everything will seem weird. And often, the current seeks a way
>through the trottle cable and this can burn off.
>
>Try to look for this and let me know, there is a solution for everything.
>And you can't stay without a pickup for weeks,,, that is no point.
>
>So long, Bill
>
>
>> From: IanBoss69 aol.com
>> To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
>> Subject: FTE 61-79 - Engine won't crank..kinda long
>> Date: 28. juli 1999 07:15
>>
>> Ok, i wrote awhile ago about my engine that decided to run fine for about
>a
>> month after I bought the truck,,,,started fine one morning, went to the
>> store, came back out, wouldnt start,,,,,large tow truck tried to jump
>> it,,,didnt work,,,guy said it was probably wa the starter,,,,got a new
>> starter,,,,didnt start, lights and radio seemed to shut off every time i
>> tried to crank the engine, but then would resume their normal operation
>if i
>> worked on the truck for awhile or left it alone then came back out, kept
>> going out every time i tried to start it,,,,took the NEW starter back to
>have
>> it tested, i talked with the parts guy, said it probably was the
>> solenoid,,,,replaced it,,,,no change,,,,replace all the 4 gauge battery
>> cables, ground wire, batt to solenoid, and solenoid to starter,,,,no
>> change,,,,took a set of jumpers and hooked one end to the starter
>terminal
>> and touched the other to the pos(+) side of the battery,,,nothing,,,took
>a
>> piece of the old batt wire (4 gauge) and attached one end to one side of
>the
>> solenoid,,,,touched the other with the other end of the
>> cable,,,,nothing,,,,,,solenoid does click when i turn the key to start
>> position though,
>> I turned the engine over by hand with a wrench, so engine is not locked
>> up,,,,,PLEASE help me, i need to get this fixed, its been 3 weeks
>> now,,,,,,and im getting frustrated,,,,
>>
>> Ian
>> 79 F250 4x4 4spd 351M
>> members.aol.com/ianboss69/page/home.htm
>> True Blue Ford Blue
>> == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
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>
>

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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:26:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Lee
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re: anti-theft devices

John,
A better one to use with points and coil ignitions is
a kill switch connected to the low side of the coil.
When closed to ground this will prevent even a hot
wire from working. If hidden well even a 'smart' thief
will be deterred. Just be careful with the wiring an
inadvertent short will kill the engine.

Dan Lee
'53 F100
351C-4V

>A good, inexpensive anti-theft device that comes
>highly recommended byour
>local law enforcement agencies is a hidden kill
>switch located underthe
>dash somewhere. I had one that engaged the nuetral
>safety switch whenturned
>on. The car would not start in any gear. I don't know
>that much abouthot
>wiring an ignition. This setup may not help. Of
>course a real theif who
>wants your truck will get it. Most anti-theft devices
>will discouragecasual
>thieves and joy riders only, which is mostly who you
>want to defeat.- -- John

_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?

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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:36:50 -0400
From: am14 daimlerchrysler.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Similiarties of FOMOCO automatics

Dennis writes: >>While we are on this, how close is the FMX to the
Cruise-o-matic? I've
been confused about this transmission for some time...
but what's new?

All the Ford 3 speed rear wheel drive autos have some commonality, but mostly in
the overall layout and design. The C6 is by far the toughest of these and I
understand some of the gearsets between the C6 and the E4OD are interchangeable,
but I do not know this for sure, as I've never been inside the E4OD. The FMX's
I've been in go all the way back to '56 and had a removeable bellhousing and
cast iron case and a torque converter that was bolted together and could be
repaired. I think they still made this transmission for some light duty
applications through the mid 80's.(may have gone to aluminum) The C4 is
basically a later version of the FMX with aluminum case and intergal
bellhousing, but parts interchangeability is very limited and both are much
lighter than the C6 and much less capable of carrying high torque. The C5 is a
C4 with a lockup torque converter, or at least this is what I'm led to believe
from my books. All the gearsets, clutches, bands bearings and such are common,
but the case and the input shaft(and maybe some other small stuff) for the C5
are different. The cruise-o-matics were tougher than the FMX or the newer
designed C4, but still light duty compared to the C6.

To better understand them, try to find an old service manual from Ford or a good
aftermarket that has a fully exploded layout of each of these and study it. It
will enlighten you quite a bit. I absolutely have to have one of these before I
open any transmission for repairs, and the Ford manuals have P/N's for each part
in it, and that helps tremendously.
Hope I haven't confused you too much
Azie
Ardmore, Al.


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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 17:41:55 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Bas van der Veer
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - hot truck

> If you have air conditioning, be sure the condenser (the coils in front of
I don't..

> the radiator) is clean. If these coils are full of bugs or other debris, you
> are never going to get your truck to cool correctly. If you have some sort
> of bug screen or non-stock air deflector, take that off, too.

I was planning on putting some sort of bug screen on, taking that out and
cleaning it is easier than poking them out of the radiator.

> You checked your fan clutch? If it does not work correctly, it can actually
I don';t have one, my fan is a very straight forward one. It always turns
and doesn't flex. (well maybe it'll flex if you stick a crowbar in it ;-))

> create turbulence in the air flow pattern while you are going down the road.
> Be sure you didn't put the fan on backwards if you have a flex and spacer.
> (Yea, I did this once, too.)
>
Why would one want to buy a flexing fan anyway? Do they blow less air at
highway speeds? I guess that would give you an extra .1 mpg.

> I'm just about out of ideas
I'm still convinced the the problem was my ignition vacuum advance.The
engine was just generating too much heat for its rpms. Thanks for your
advice though.
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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:46:41 -0700
From: John Kahrs
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - anti theft devices

John Kahrs wrote:

> > dash somewhere. I had one that engaged the nuetral safety switch
> when turned
> > on. The car would not start in any gear. I don't know that much
> about hot
>
> It only takes one jumper wire to get it going though.. would be better
> to
> do something to the ignition (if it can be done w/o sacrifising
> performance) and put the switch inside the frame under the vehicle.
> Then
> of course you have to make sure it does not corrode. I guess that's
> with
> any anti theft device, they're a pain to live with and you never know
> if
> you're going to work. How many people lost the key to their locking
> nuts
> (or what are they called, to prevent wheel/tire theft)
>
> > wiring an ignition. This setup may not help. Of course a real thief
> who
> > wants your truck will get it. Most anti-theft devices will
> discourage casual
> > thieves and joy riders only, which is mostly who you want to defeat.
>
> A real thief wouldn't mess with a 20 year old vehicle to begin with,
> they'd only go for the more serious bucks.--

Hmm. Thieves won't touch my mercedes, but they go into my truck all the
time. Right now I just chain the hood shut (work truck, so no beauty
contests with this one), and before I do that, I take the wire from the
coil to the distributor. It'll crank but it won't turn over. Probably
not the best solution, but very simple and fast to take that wire with
you. Course, if you or someone else forgets, you also crank
meaninglessly just wondering why it won't start.

I do think a kill switch under the dash, although convenient, is easily
bypassed because a thief can work as long as he likes down there without
being seen, and all that wiring is easily reached from underneath with
no cover down there. I might try putting something in the door jamb
right above the interior light switch. Something protected from the
elements, but not an obvious place to look.

jk

- --
John Kahrs

kahrs pixar.com
510.620.3486



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Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 18:25:59 -0700
From: Bas van der Veer
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - RE: Help with Guages

>phone is 1-800-654-3247. The regulator is about the size of the horn relay
>and is mounted on the back of the instrument cluster. It attaches with what
>look like 9 volt battery connections. Be careful disconnecting them so as
>not to damage the foil.

Ahh the reason I did not replace it is because I always thought they were
stuck to the foil. So you can actually take them off, sounds like I'll do
that at some point, although the only thing I am using it for it the gas
gauge, I got aftermarket gauges for the oil and water.

My old one went bad, then the speedometer went bad. I was going to pull it
out and then the whole panel just crumbled right in front of my eyes. I
know plastic can turn bad overtime but this was just crazy, especially for
something that's out of the sun. I suspect it got some chemical on it
because the speedometer backing plate was still okay. But yeah as soon as
you touched it it just crumbled, all that is left now is the flexible PCB
with the gauges. I got a new panel and its regulator went bad too. I don't
understand why they didn't use a solid state regulator for that.

>The charge meter in 73-79 trucks is notorious for not working. For it to
>work the internal resistance of the meter must be balanced to the resistance
>of the shunt. Bas, I believe your meter is probably hooked up but doesn't
>work due to incorrect shunt resistance. The archives have a detailed
>discussion on this from a couple of years ago.

Actually the ground cable on my truck runs directly from the engine, it
seems that they changed that in the past. It makes more sense because the
big currents go to and from the engine.

Maybe I'll just install a volt meter, that's probably more useful.

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Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 18:31:43 -0700
From: Bas van der Veer
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - RE: vacuum advance (ignition)

>Bas, You are correct, with more advance the motor will run warmer. One
>thing I would like to point out is that at 60 mph the ported and manifold
>vacuum values will be the same. When you changed the hoses did you also
>change the initial timing value? With what you describe I would expect the

No, I have always had the initial timing at 14 BTDC. This is what the tune
up decal specifies.

>engine to heat up at idle but then cool down at speed. Perhaps if you
>advanced the initial timing value that is causing the overheating and then
>at speed the initial plus the vacuum advance is keeping it hot.
>
>Good luck and let us know how it goes.

I installed a new temperature switch (the old one seemed to be stuck,
that's why I started fiddling with it in the first place), and a high-flow
thermostat. So far it's been good. I also installed an aftermarket temp
gauge with a SCALE so I'm not being fooled by the crappy gauge henry bought
for us at the flea market.

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Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 18:36:11 -0700
From: Bas van der Veer
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - *compact* spare

>I always put a spare on the roof as well as used the rear spare hanger under
>the bed. Two is better than one. It does make it fun getting it up and
down
>but beats being stranded somewhere.

I'm sure the camper will make changing the tire very interesting too,
especially if you have to rely on the scissor jack. I have a HiLift which
is better but you really have to lift the body *high* before the wheels
come off the ground.

Does the scissor jack lift the body or the axle? The axle, right?

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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:09:45 -0700
From: Bas van der Veer
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - vacuum advance (ignition)

>cap with a freshly re-done radiator and new heater core. it's seen 230
>degrees in traffic many times with no apparent ill effects(except a

Well.. you can do a lot of things to a motor and not really notice the
difference. It'll just impose more wear on the engine. It may be that the
230 degrees is not hard on the engine, as long as it is stable and the
whole block has an even temperature. The thing that would bear me most
concern is the oil temperature for both transmission and engine. I heard
transmission oil loses its lubricating properties pretty fast after 230
degrees. Not sure about engine oil, but it is probably no better. If the
engine operates at 230 already, and the transmission gets its cooling to
the engine coolant, it must obviously be hotter. That is why I installed
the biggest transmission cooler I could find, it is about a foot square and
an inch thick.

>time. Of couse, I flushed it out every year, even if I reused the
>anti-freeze (dumped it every other year, strained it through a doubled
>pillow case on the reuse years. I also kept the radiator clear of

I would get new coolant more often, especially if you run a lean mixture.
This anti-corrosion stuff will eventually stop working.

>bugs(big isssue around here if you work nights. It looks like I was

I need anti-bug facilities too, yeah..



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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:15:57 -0700
From: Bas van der Veer
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - vacuum advance (ignition)

At 09:36 AM 7/24/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> That's what I figured too. Still it was at a constant 210 degrees or
>> something, too hot.
>210 is really about right. Good anti-freeze raises the boiling point
>up close to 250-260 degrees. Boiling is what causes engine damage, you

Actually I don't think it boiled, it did perculate a lot of water into the
overflow - which then overflowed as well, but that's just heat expansion.

The only time it really boiled over was when I was stupid enough to let my
idiot "friend" drive it. I still start spitting fire when I think of that.
After I got it back it was almost 2 gal low on coolant, and the pressure
had cracked the heater core. I'm surprised it was still cooling at all. I
have nothing against borrowing but how come there is always a bad
experience linked to it..

>get steam in your casting voids, causing rapid expansion, also causing
>the exposed surface temperature to rise exponentially. This
>thermo-dynamic pressure will distort and crack the metal, or blow a
>gasket. Depending on the engine design and condition of the coolant,

Looks like I was "lucky" that time with my friend. Looks like I have to
learn to say NO.



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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:09:34 -0500
From: "don"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - torgue converter swaps

can u swap torgue converters from a FMX or a C4 to a C6 transmission ?

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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:29:15 -0400
From: am14 daimlerchrysler.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Won't crank

Ian.!.!.!.. Anytime (well almost anyway) you have the condition you describe,
it is because the voltage is insufficient to carry the necessary cranking amps
to turn the starter. You have a bad battery, or some very bad connections
between it and the starter relay. Mechanical connection does not mean
electrical connection. Be sure all connections are clean down to the bare
metal. If you clean all connections and still have the condition you describe,
then off to your local battery checker you go.

Azie
Ardmore, Al.


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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:33:49 EDT
From: SevnD2 aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - anti theft devices

Another type of kill switch that could be hidden is one that is magnetically
engaged or disengaged only. That way there is no obvious key or switch and
can be placed where wires and other hardware is out of sight and hard to get
to . I got this idea from a gun that uses a magnetic ring worn by the owner
and can only be fired by the person wearing the ring .
Another anti theft device is good during the cooler months , I take my
australian shepherd with me . I have seen her react like those alarms that
come on when you get close to the car and say stuff like move away or the
alarm will sound . She isn't quite as nice about it though !
Here's one to think about . How about putting the switch on the seat so you
have to slide it all the way back or forward to engage it , but only to start
not to run and then you can put the seat where ever you like it . I know I'll
hear about that one . LOL
Anyway those are my thoughts on it .
Rollie .
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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:55:29 -0700
From: "Steve Schwartz"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - anti theft devices

A friend of mine has microswitches mounted behind the heater/vent control
levers. They have to be in a certain position to engage the starter...I
LIKE this.

Steve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-61-79-list ford-trucks.com
> [mailto:owner-61-79-list ford-trucks.com]On Behalf Of SevnD2 aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 10:34 AM
> To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - anti theft devices
>
>
> Another type of kill switch that could be hidden is one that is
> magnetically
> engaged or disengaged only. That way there is no obvious key or
> switch and
> can be placed where wires and other hardware is out of sight and
> hard to get
> to . I got this idea from a gun that uses a magnetic ring worn by
> the owner
> and can only be fired by the person wearing the ring .
> Another anti theft device is good during the cooler months , I take my
> australian shepherd with me . I have seen her react like those
> alarms that
> come on when you get close to the car and say stuff like move away or the
> alarm will sound . She isn't quite as nice about it though !
> Here's one to think about . How about putting the switch on the
> seat so you
> have to slide it all the way back or forward to engage it , but
> only to start
> not to run and then you can put the seat where ever you like it .
> I know I'll
> hear about that one . LOL
> Anyway those are my thoughts on it .
> Rollie .
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>

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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:49:21 -0700
From: Bas van der Veer
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - anti theft devices

>> A real thief wouldn't mess with a 20 year old vehicle to begin with,
>> they'd only go for the more serious bucks.--
>Hmm. Thieves won't touch my mercedes, but they go into my truck all the

Yeah but who on earth wants to have a mercedes :)

I know, lots of people. I drove one for awhile and decided I want more than
just an A -> B means of transportation.

>time. Right now I just chain the hood shut (work truck, so no beauty

I can hardly believe it, why would they mess with your truck. Maybe because
they think it's easy to mess with..

>contests with this one), and before I do that, I take the wire from the
>coil to the distributor. It'll crank but it won't turn over. Probably

It cranks but it doesn't turn over?? You mean it cranks but it doesnt fire.
But doesn't it damage your coil to take that wire in and out so often? And
doesn't it get damaged when you crank it with that wire off? Still better
than having your truck stolen of course.


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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:52:39 -0700
From: Bruce Gray
Subject: FTE 61-79 - deal on a '77 F250

Hi all,

I'm new to this listserv so please forgive me if I'm asking about stuff
that's been covered. I've found a '77 F250 with 100K miles (supposedly) for
$1500. What should I and my mechanic be looking for when we check it out
and is that a good price? I haven't actually seen the rig and the guy
doesn't seem to know much about it aside from saying it has a V8. Are these
fairly easy to work on? I'm just looking for something fairly reliable to
haul a driftboat around this fall and winter.

Any advice or tips would be much appreciated.

Bruce
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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:04:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Lee
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re: hot truck

You are right Steve. I didn't think about it very hard
when I made my post, but I was speaking from
experience and overstated how much cooling would
occur. In a perfect cooling system with a high volume
of coolant flowing there will be a small temp
difference between intake and outlet. In a system with
some restriction and limited volume there will be some
temp drop across the radiator. In all cases however
the temp gradient will be uniform. Radiator shops use
pyrometers to find 'hot' and 'cool' spot, where 'cool'
spots are plugged areas. They put transmission coolers
in the outlet side because of the lower temp coolant
at that point.
Burning fuel in a cylinder produces calories of heat
energy. That heat raises the temp of the gases which
increases the cylinder pressure. The increased
pressure pushes the piston in its 'easy' direction.
This process continues until the exhaust valve opens
and the hot gas is discharged. During this time some
of the calories are absorbed by the cylinder wall and
passed into the coolant flowing by. Since one calorie
raises one cubic centimeter of water one degree
Celsius, many calories per second will raise many cc's
per second by some amount. The temperature rise will
be determined by the rate the heat is being produced
and the coolant flow. In a cooling system at
equilibrium the heat rise will be equal to the heat
drop in the radiator. Both of these numbers depend on
the volume of coolant flowing and engine conditions.
In a system that is not in equilibrium
(overheating)the radiator will not be able to cool the
fluid enough. This may be due to reduced flow or just
more calories coming in than it can handle. If there
is a restriction is somewhere other than the radiator
the radiator will have a uniform gradient and a large
difference across it. If the restriction is in the
radiator then there will be hot and cool spots in it.
If the cooling system cannot handle the calories
produced by the engine, but has high flow then the
there will be a small drop across the radiator but at
a high temp.
Advanced timing or low grade fuel or both or high
engine friction (low oil) could produce the last
condition.
I don't think this is the ultimate explanation, but it
is an attempt.

Dan Lee
'53 F100
351C-4V
>I'm not saying that there should be NO difference in
>temp between inletand
>outlet, just that cooling is increased as the
>difference gets smaller. This
>happens with higher flow. The thermostat does reduce
>flow, but withinthe
>cooling system's design parameters. On some engines
>it also providesenough
>backpressure to keep the pump from cavitating. Its
>REAL purpose is to
>provide quick warmup and temperature regulation, to
>keep the engine
>operating at its design temperature.


_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:16:10 -0700
From: Bas van der Veer
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - anti theft devices

At 10:55 AM 7/28/99 -0700, you wrote:
>A friend of mine has microswitches mounted behind the heater/vent control
>levers. They have to be in a certain position to engage the starter...I
>LIKE this.

Wow that is a VERY good idea.

That makes me think, you could even make something where you have to open
the window also. Then you don't even need a key. I have left my key on the
transfer case skid plate or on a muffler, that's usually a good hiding place.

I was also thinking, you can have a piece of your starter wire hooked up
with special quick disconnect socket, so you can easily take it. Then you
don't have to worry about damaging something, unlike taking the coil-dist
wire. Generally I think the "take a small but essential piece of your
truck" approach would work a bit better as they can always bypass whatever
switch you build in. Even the heater switch, they won't find it but a
simple jumper cable from the battery to the solenoid is all it takes to
bypass any starter switch.
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:28:54 -0700
From: "Steve Schwartz"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - Re: hot truck

Thanks, Dan. Your (new) explanation works for me...

Best,
Steve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-61-79-list ford-trucks.com
> [mailto:owner-61-79-list ford-trucks.com]On Behalf Of Dan Lee
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 11:05 AM
> To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re: hot truck
>
>
> You are right Steve. I didn't think about it very hard
> when I made my post, but I was speaking from
> experience and overstated how much cooling would
> occur. In a perfect cooling system with a high volume



> I don't think this is the ultimate explanation, but it
> is an attempt.
>
> Dan Lee
> '53 F100
> 351C-4V
> >I'm not saying that there should be NO difference in
> >temp between inletand
> >outlet, just that cooling is increased as the
> >difference gets smaller. This
> >happens with higher flow. The thermostat does reduce
> >flow, but withinthe
> >cooling system's design parameters. On some engines
> >it also providesenough
> >backpressure to keep the pump from cavitating. Its
> >REAL purpose is to
> >provide quick warmup and temperature regulation, to
> >keep the engine
> >operating at its design temperature.
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> >
> == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
>
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:03:00 -0500
From: William S Hart
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - anti theft devices

> Here's one to think about . How about putting the switch on the seat so you
>have to slide it all the way back or forward to engage it , but only to start
>not to run and then you can put the seat where ever you like it . I know I'll
>hear about that one . LOL

Here's something about that one ... some of us always have the seat all the
way back and CAN NOT fit in with the seat all the way forwards! But its so
hot right now that I'm leavin the windows down and everything, also being
summer there aren't too many kids around (an advantage of working at a
school :).


>A friend of mine has microswitches mounted behind the heater/vent control
>levers. They have to be in a certain position to engage the starter...I
>LIKE this.

I had a friend who had that too ... only problem was it wasn't intentional!
The heater controls on his B*ick shorted somewhere so the car would only
start if you held the slider all the way into the defrost position ... you
had to hold it too (momentary style switch) while you hit the key ... I
guess he got pretty good at it after drivin it for a year! Some days he
just left the keys in it since no one could start it easily ... and who....


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