61-79-list-digest Sunday, March 21 1999 Volume 03 : Number 096



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1961-1979 Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

FTE 61-79 - Making the old Fords handle (better)
FTE 61-79 - 390/410 Pistons
FTE 61-79 - EGR- Heat-Riser Port Block
FTE 61-79 - '65 gas padal problem - solution.
Re: FTE 61-79 - '65 gas padal problem - solution.
Re: FTE 61-79 - '65 gas padal problem - solution.
FTE 61-79 - RE: new guy
Re: FTE 61-79 - 351C Tunnel Ram
FTE 61-79 - Intake on a 351w
Re: FTE 61-79 - Ford on ch*y chassis
FTE 61-79 - 78 460 Initial Advance????
Re: FTE 61-79 - 78 460 Initial Advance????
RE: FTE 61-79 - 78 460 Initial Advance????
FTE 61-79 - 390 Headers??
FTE 61-79 - 8" rear ends
FTE 61-79 - 79 F-150 4WD, 429CU
Re: FTE 61-79 - 78 460 Initial Advance????
Re: FTE 61-79 - Intake on a 351w
Re: FTE 61-79 - 8" rear ends
Re: FTE 61-79 - 8" rear ends
Re: FTE 61-79 - Intake on a 351w
Re: FTE 61-79 - 78 460 Initial Advance????
[none]

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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:32:12 CST
From: "Shane Bevel"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Making the old Fords handle (better)

This is in response to the comment about making the older trucks handle
like the Lighting:

A good friend of mine rebuilt his 78 F-150 about 3 years ago after 250k
miles and a wreck. When he got done it handled really well. I mean it
wasn't any rail-runner, but it didn't feel like it was going to rollover
in a soft right hand turn either.

He just replaced all the bushing with polyurethane and put in a set of
progressive rate drop springs. I can't remember how much he dropped it.
I think it was 3-2" or 4-3" (front-back) I remember that the truck sat
nice and level and looked really good. He also put Bilsteins on all four
corners. Since I started this story I will finish telling you guys about
the truck.

It had a carb'd 472" motor with a 100hp shot of juice, ported heads and
the whole basic motor hopup. The C-6 was setup so hard that it spun the
tires going into third at cruising speed. It was a longbed with aluminum
wheels and an Admiral Blue paint job (for those who don't know that is
the same blue that the Grand Sport Corvette is painted) He had all the
stock crome reworked and replaced. The interior was tan and admiral blue
and the seat came out of a late model ford F150. The truck ran a 13.8 on
the bottle at Texas Motorplex. At the time it had a 3.0:1 ratio open
rearend. It spun the tire to the 1/8 mile marker. I can't imagine how
fast that truck would be with a 3.73 locker in it!

I can't remember his website right now, but I'll post it in the next few
days. He has some pics up. The saddest part: he sold the truck in
perfect condition for $3500. I wish I had the money at the time!

Later,
Shane

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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 06:47:52 -0600
From: ballingr ldd.net (William L. Ballinger)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - 390/410 Pistons

> Would someone that has the 410 stamped piston measure the wrist pin location
> from the top of the piston and compare it to one of the 390 stamped pistons, for
> me. (If my calculations are correct, there should be .100" difference) I've
> just purchased a set of "410" pistons from a fellow list member, and I was
> certain in my own mind that the stampings was a correct way of ID'ing them.....
> Now I have my doubts..

They should come out as .100 lower than a 390 piston, 1.66 compression
height, same as a 428. If you put them in a 390 they will drop the
compression ratio 2 full points from the 410's original compression.
The big disavantage to this approach, and the reason why the last of the
390's performed poorly compared to earlier versions(and still pinged
even at 8 to 1 compression) is that on a quench design head, if you
move the piston away from the head you end up with a strong tendency to
develop a second flame front, or detonation, due to the increased
clearance between the "closed" part of the chamber and the piston. The
clearnce allows enough volume that it becomes a compression chamber of
its own, and the approaching flame front will compress it to diesel
compression for a split second, under load it will light FE's put alot
of fire into the head surface, and to me that qualifies them as a quench
design. I've not seen them called a "quench-head", but that's my
opiniom. This is my theory and I welcome any comments or other opinions
on the subject.
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 06:55:56 -0600
From: ballingr ldd.net (William L. Ballinger)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - EGR- Heat-Riser Port Block

> It sounds like you need to fabricate a thin spacer or gasket out of steel
> that covers the exhaust gallery and leaves the intakes open. This spacer
> would go immeditely on top of the manifold. The purpose of the exhaust is
> to keep the carb warm, especially during cold start warmup cycle. If you do
> away with the exhaust gallery, you may introduce a whole new set of
> problems.

I've seen a gasket that had a metal insert that blocked the EGR-heat
riser port. I'd bet that if you looked up an F250-F350 heavy-duty
emissions application fron the mid-to late '70's you might find it, Just
a thought.
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:02:52 -0800
From: "sam weatherby"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - '65 gas padal problem - solution.

If anyone is unhappy with the pedal in there '60-'66 let me know...
I just replaced mine last night with a newwer one and it made a world of
difference and only took 20 minutes or so.
-srw

Sam Weatherby http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://insert.com/sammy
SWeatherby UsWest.Net A-SamWe Microsoft.com
'70 Grabber Sportsroof Mustang
'93 F-150 XLT Lightning
'65 F100


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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:17:32 -0600
From: Stu Varner
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '65 gas padal problem - solution.

At 12:02 PM 3/20/99 -0800, you wrote:
>If anyone is unhappy with the pedal in there '60-'66 let me know...
>I just replaced mine last night with a newwer one and it made a world of
>difference and only took 20 minutes or so.
>

How so, Sam??? Better action?? Elaborate please.
8^)

Stu
Nuke GM!
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.pscico.com/stu
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:50:08 -0800
From: "sam weatherby"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '65 gas padal problem - solution.

Well our truck has 302.
The cable from the pedal goes through the firewall, loops to take up slack
and then goes to the throttle bracket then goes to the carb.
It was extremely difficult to give it just a little gas. The newer setup the
rod goes through the firewall and the end is almost pefectly behind the carb
and almost exactly the same height. Another rod goes directly from the end
of that to the carb.
Now it is very easily to gently accelerate without getting wiplash.

Here's some pics of a similar swap, excepts his original gas pedal is very
different the ours.
I will try to get pics soon. We also didn't need any bending at all.
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.jps.net/rick1956/gaspedal.htm

Friday my and my friend skipped out of work early and went to the junkyard.
We saw a '66 F-250 Crew Cab. It was cool...

I will try to take some pictures soon. If I can remember...
-srw

Sam Weatherby http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://insert.com/sammy
SWeatherby UsWest.Net A-SamWe Microsoft.com
'70 Grabber Sportsroof Mustang
'93 F-150 XLT Lightning
'65 F100

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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 15:55:18 -0500
From: "Timothy R. Anderson"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - RE: new guy

Spaz,
Welcome to the list! You'll find lots of good
info here to help you with your truck.
As far as price differences for 6cyl parts vs.
V8 parts, I've not noticed that there is too
much variation. If you are talking about
performance parts though, you may find
that the 6cyl. stuff is far less common. For a
daily driver, Ford sixes are great but if you
want to go fast (or really fast) a V8 will do
more for less. I'm partial to FEs myself, but
as you will see here, there are lots of great
Ford engines with a cadre of fanatics for
each type. Whatever your plans are for the
truck, you should enjoy owning and driving it.

Tim in Anchorage
'67 F-100 (currently in 3456 peices)
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 17:02:24 -0500
From: "Ted & Sarah Freeman"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - 351C Tunnel Ram

Chris,

There is one on ebay.

Try this link:

http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=78413574

Later,

- -Ted

- -----Original Message-----
From: JJJJJGRANT aol.com
To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 12:16 AM
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - 351C Tunnel Ram


>there is alot of used ones around, can hardly go to a swap meet without
seeing
>a couple of them anywhere from 100.00 to 150.00. those things kill the low
>end of a four barrel cleveland, so they are not used that much anymore. you
>must be building a heck of an engine, or you just want it to look tuff?
>blowers aren't practical either, but i'd love to have one.
>
>jeff grant
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>

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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:47:17 -0700
From: "James Draughn"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Intake on a 351w

I am in the process of rebuildint my 351w and I had to get another one from
the junk yard. However, on the one I got from the junkyard had no plate on
the bottom of the manifold, while the orginal I had taken out of the van
did. It looks like it is pressed on with two studs of some kind. There is
no way to remove the studs that I can see, it has no place for a wrench or
screwdriver, or even an allen wrench. There is a place for one on my new
manifold and I need to somehow how remove the old one and put it on my new
manifold. What i would like to know is how do I remove this plate, and is
it really nessesarry? I would like to know what is this plates purpose in
life? Thanks in advance. btw, I plan on putting this togeather tomorrow,
if I could figure out how to fix this in advance, it would help greatly. Im
sick of having to drive the damn voltswagon jetta that breaks down everytime
I leave the driveway with it. ( don't ask why I have it). Thanks again..

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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:36:35 -0500
From: Garr&Pam
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Ford on ch*y chassis

Been wondering what Ford did chassis wise to make the Lightnings handle
so well. Anybody want to enlighten the uninformed masses. I would love
to duplicate the package using a 78 or 79 short wide...... The
performance of the lightning with the looks and durability of a real
Ford would be pretty great. Horsepower is easy to find, brakes can be
upgraded to the point of absurdity, but good handling without being too
low or giving up to much load capacity is tough to do.


The Lightning has a drop of 1" up fornt and 2.5" in the rear, a rear
inforced frame above the rear axle, fornt and rear sway bars, Monroe GP
shocks...which have much different valving the regular F150
shocks...believe me i found out the hard way, and of course the
274/60/17 tires don't jurt none either, and they also used a 4X4 pitman
arm for better response. Another key is having a small block up
front...tkae for example the 454SS made more power than the
Lightning...but the only thing it could do better was burn its tires,
handling sucked and of course in the quarter all it did was spin its
tires with all the weight on the front tires! Polyurethane bushing rally
help handling I have added them to my truck and am very satisfied...plus
they are more durable than rubber. Horsepower is not the key...Its a
nice torque curve that stays fat across the rev range. In a honda or
Toyota horsepower is fine but when you start trying to move a 2-3 ton
truck you need torque.
If you have any more questions just let me know...if this is not
something the rest of 61-79 list wants to hear about then let us know!
Chris
94 lighting #381
NLOC #238
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:22:48 -0600
From: Jeff Lester
Subject: FTE 61-79 - 78 460 Initial Advance????

Just curious... I have a 78 E350 4x4 with
a 460 / C6 combo. I purchased it around
the first of the year, and just got around to
checking the timing. With all the talk about
slow hot starts, it got me to thinking about
my 460's similar problem. Well... I checked
the timing, and it was at 30deg BTDC. The
Chilton manual said to check the underhood
sticker for the advance spec, but the engine
is a mild cam replacement engine. The only
numbers I could find were for an earlier
model 460. It indicated 12 deg BTDC. I
adjusted the timing to 12 deg, and it started
much easier, but the beast was a dog when
I accelerated. The van definitely would not
win a drag race at 30 deg, but 12 deg was
*not* right. I settled on 20 deg, since night
was approaching. Can I get some thoughts
on the right spec for my application?

Jeff - Houston, Texas
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 19:04:55 -0800 (PST)
From: TheFORDMAN webtv.net
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - 78 460 Initial Advance????

Jeff
as far as i know you just have to play around with it until it feels
right. did
you degree the cam after you put it in ?
cause sometimes just lining up the key ways isnt enough . what about the
installation instructions? and what do they say ? what kind of cam is it
and the maker? some cam manufacturers have tech support line. was it
pinging at 30 degrees? was it doggish at 12 degrees?
you wont be able to use the stock timing
settings with an other than stock cam set up.also try static timing your
dist. cause you could be off a tooth and your performance will suffer
!!! is 30 degrees
your total or initial timing. I 'm not a total expert on cams and such
but the process of elimination sometimes helps..good
luck to you. if you have any more problems after that i'm sure someone
with more experience with cams and such will be able to helpyou out
Eric aka
THE FORDMAN

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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:00:41 -0600
From: Jeff Lester
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - 78 460 Initial Advance????

Eric,

Thanks for the reply.

On Saturday, March 20, 1999 9:05 PM, TheFORDMAN webtv.net [SMTP:TheFORDMAN webtv.net] wrote:
> Jeff
> as far as i know you just have to play around with it until it feels
> right. did

That's how I have always done it, but I invested in a timing light this
time. I hoped that a little more precision might help in the MPG game.

> you degree the cam after you put it in ?
> cause sometimes just lining up the key ways isnt enough . what about the
> installation instructions? and what do they say ? what kind of cam is it
> and the maker? some cam manufacturers have tech support line. was it

I did not install the cam. The previous owner obtained the engine from
RHS, and he told me it had a "mild" cam. It definitely does not have
a lopey idle.

> pinging at 30 degrees? was it doggish at 12 degrees?

It did not ping at 30deg, and *yes* is was doggish at 12deg. It would not
get out of it's own way at 12deg. I was hoping that something other than
30deg would result in better giddyup, but that didn't happen. The van
has 33's and 3.73's, and I can't even think about chirping the tires. Even
at 20deg, or 30deg, the engine just doesn't seem to have the power my
390/C6 equipped 76 F150 4x4 had. I suspect my final drive ratio is to
blame, along with a strange off-idle bog with WOT.

> you wont be able to use the stock timing
> settings with an other than stock cam set up.also try static timing your
> dist. cause you could be off a tooth and your performance will suffer
> !!! is 30 degrees
> your total or initial timing. I 'm not a total expert on cams and such

I may be measuring the initial timing incorrectly. I did not disable any
vacuum lines. Should I pull the vacuum line on the distributor before
setting initial advance?

[snip]

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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:07:12 -0600 (CST)
From: cdedear clearsail.net
Subject: FTE 61-79 - 390 Headers??

Hey Ya'll
I have '74 with a 390 and I'm slightly interested in headers. Are
they worth the $$ and the install?
Also where would I get them. I've looked in the summit catalog and
I havent seen any for a 390.
Thanks
" The Green Iguana"
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:22:18 -0600 (CST)
From: cdedear clearsail.net
Subject: FTE 61-79 - 8" rear ends

To the guy who was interested in Swapping an 8" rearend to a 9"
About your vibration in the drive line. My '74 used to vibrate at anything over 45mph. I then replaced the "carrier bearing" (i doubt that is the correct term) welll anyways all the rubber in the mount had worn away and thus the vibration. We had to remove the driveshaft and use the "heat & hit" method until we worked it loose. Then slipped the new one on and bolted it up. Solved the problem.

This may not be the case for your year, but it worked on mine.

"The Green Iguana"

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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:38:04 EST
From: JefriHansn aol.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - 79 F-150 4WD, 429CU

Anybody want to buy a truck? I'm 36 yrs old and never owned a Ford I had to
tow home until I bought this 79 F-150 4WD 429cu'r. Ain't had it a year and
today makes number 3 in the towing bills.
Going north on I-94 today just a cruising along at 75 - er 55+/- a few -
let off the gas to begin landing and it spit out Volkswagen beetle size
fireballs out the exhaust. I immediately clutched it and pulled over. Tried
it, back fired. Got out, everything looked fine. Took the distributor
(Mallory) cap off, turned freely in my hands. I knew it was either a 50 cent
fix, or a major rebuild. Turns out - so very uncharacteristic of this money
pit (yes - it's green) - it's the distributor cam gear pin sheared. (thank
god) Now - any suggestions why? Oil pumps got maybe 500 miles on it -
changed when I got rid of the 4 quart pan it came with and put a Moroso 8
quart on it. But short of checking to make sure the oil pump turns - anything
else I should look for? Thing about this truck - in the 10 months I've had
it, I've had to take the distributor hold off three times and flatten it
because the distributor seems to be pushing up on it, bending it - then
allowing the distributor to turn - thus not starting. A racer I know says
"it's cam walk" (has an Insky) (god I prey the mains are okay - if not -
maybe a good time to drop in that 351 I wished it had in it)
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 22:01:31 -0700
From: "James Draughn"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - 78 460 Initial Advance????

Just one thing I wanted to point out just to make sure that your doing it.
Make sure that you pull the vacum advance line so your measuring base
degrees and not after the distributor has been advanced when your setting
your timing.

>> you degree the cam after you put it in ?
>> cause sometimes just lining up the key ways isnt enough . what about the
>> installation instructions? and what do they say ? what kind of cam is it
>> and the maker? some cam manufacturers have tech support line. was it
>
>I did not install the cam. The previous owner obtained the engine from
>RHS, and he told me it had a "mild" cam. It definitely does not have
>a lopey idle.
>
>> pinging at 30 degrees? was it doggish at 12 degrees?
>
>It did not ping at 30deg, and *yes* is was doggish at 12deg. It would not
>get out of it's own way at 12deg. I was hoping that something other than
>30deg would result in better giddyup, but that didn't happen. The van
>has 33's and 3.73's, and I can't even think about chirping the tires. Even
>at 20deg, or 30deg, the engine just doesn't seem to have the power my
>390/C6 equipped 76 F150 4x4 had. I suspect my final drive ratio is to
>blame, along with a strange off-idle bog with WOT.
>
>> you wont be able to use the stock timing
>> settings with an other than stock cam set up.also try static timing your
>> dist. cause you could be off a tooth and your performance will suffer
>> !!! is 30 degrees
>> your total or initial timing. I 'm not a total expert on cams and such
>
>I may be measuring the initial timing incorrectly. I did not disable any
>vacuum lines. Should I pull the vacuum line on the distributor before
>setting initial advance?
>
>[snip]
>
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:55:10 EST
From: JJJJJGRANT aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Intake on a 351w

there is a heat passage (exhaust heat= HOT) that crosses through the center of
the intake, oil will bake on the bottom of the intake and get crusty around
this passage. the plate is there to keep it from falling into the engine. they
make gaskets with block off plates to block these passages, but it may cause
the engine to be cold natured. those gaskets are for performance use.
to removed the pan, use a chisel and tap it to get it under the pin head,
use caution, you don't want to cut the head off. then pry it up. i used to do
this on all engines that came into the shop for vatting, when i worked in an
automotive machine shop.
just for those that don't know. if anyone takes an engine to an
automotive shop for rebuilding. ALWAYS be sure they remove all freeze plugs,
oil galley plugs, and intake pans as mentioned above.and have them run a brush
through all oil passages.i've seen so many that don't do any of this. really
urks me.

thanks for listening
jeff grant
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Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:03:41 EST
From: JJJJJGRANT aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - 8" rear ends

for vibrations at certain speeds, unbolt the drive shaft from the rear yoke,
turn it over 90 degrees and bolt it back up, drive it and see if it corrects
the problem if it does you only spent 30 minutes or so, if it still vibrates
but at a different speed, your driveshaft may need balancing. it could be a
number of things but the driveshaft is the simplest and the cheapest thing to
fix. before i unbolt my drive shaft i always mark how it was originaly.
jeff grant
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Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:14:14 -0500
From: Ted Wnorowski
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - 8" rear ends

> I then replaced the "carrier bearing" (i doubt that is the correct term)

That's the "correct " term, or center bearing is the same thing. Any way, my '64 shudders violently when I try to juice it too hard. I checked the drive shaft, and sure enough, the rubber is shrunk around the bearing. (The truck sat for awhile before I bought it.)
If I take it easy, it's OK. Just when I hit it too hard is when it shakes.
Wednesday it's getting fixed. I'll let you know how it went.

Ted Wnorowski
Bellevue,OH
'64 F-250
352 FE (transplant)
4-speed


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Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:31:54 EST
From: SHill48337 aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Intake on a 351w

In a message dated 3/20/99 3:45:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, myph enol.com
writes:


it really nessesarry? I would like to know what is this plates purpose in
life? Thanks in advance. >>

Let me quote from one of my rebuild books on this subject. "Two spiral-groove
rivets secure the baffle to the manifold. To remove them, you'll need to
wedge something with a very sharp edge under the rivet heads. A long skinny
chisel will do. One thing to be aware of, the rivet-heads are easily broken
off. If this happens, drill out the remainder of the rivet. Continue to
wedge under the rivet until you have enough clearance to grab it securely with
vice-grip pliers. Pry under the pliers and twist counter clockwise to unscrew
it. Use a hammer to reinstall." So much for that, now I will quote the
purpose of the baffle. "Don't think you can do without a baffle. You will
end up with an oil consumption problem due to oil atomizing when it comes in
contact with the hot underside of the intake manifold. It will then go out
the engine's PCV system." I think you can still get these rivets new, but my
book goes on to say that you can drill the rivet out with a 7/32 bit then
thread the hole with 1/4-20 tap and use a 1/4-20x3/8 bolt. I've never done
this, however, it seems to have an exciting element of the unknown. Please,
let us know how it turns out. Good Luck
Burt Hill Kennewick WA 1972 F-250 4x4 460
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Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:44:23 EST
From: SHill48337 aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - 78 460 Initial Advance????

In a message dated 3/20/99 8:16:22 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jflester phoenix.net writes:


vacuum lines. Should I pull the vacuum line on the distributor before
setting initial advance?
>>
YES, and it sounds like the distributor is connected directly to the manifold
for vacuum, not the carb spark port. But, that is ok. Just remove and plug
the vacuum line prior to using the timing light. 12 degrees BTDC is a good
place to start.
Burt Hill
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:08:00 PST
From: "steve potratz"
Subject: [none]


compression would probably not out pull the 460 with the slightly lower
compression. Ether way you can have a quality running truck. Do you
have the heads that came with the 71 429?, Those are ones that have
small combustion chambers and when used with the right pistons can kick
compression into the mid 9s. Good luck Burt Hill Kennewick Wa 1972 F-250....

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