61-79-list-digest Sunday, May 30 1999 Volume 03 : Number 183



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1961-1979 Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

Re: FTE 61-79 - engine swap
Re: FTE 61-79 - engine swap
FTE 61-79 - 6 Lug Rims
FTE 61-79 - Direct Injection
FTE 61-79 - Final (Hopefully) dizzy update
FTE 61-79 - coil blues
FTE 61-79 - Re: Problem with new master cylinder?
FTE 61-79 - ****WHEW***
Re: FTE 61-79 - Re: Problem with new master cylinder?
FTE 61-79 - 77 Ford Club Wagon Van 3/4 ton
FTE 61-79 - TEL (Was: Re: 66 F100 project that has mutated into physics class)
FTE 61-79 - Rear Disc Brake Swap
FTE 61-79 - 1972 ford f-100
FTE 61-79 - 1971 truck
FTE 61-79 - Original Ford Wires
FTE 61-79 - Crankshaft questions
FTE 61-79 - Mass Air Conversion on 460
FTE 61-79 - Compliance Plate deciphering
FTE 61-79 - '66 F-100 Physics Project :)
Re: FTE 61-79 - Crankshaft questions

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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 05:27:11 -0400
From: "Serian"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - engine swap

>Looking for information on what is required to swap a
>351w into an 85 F150
>currently equipped with an I6 300 and a C6.
>Specifically, will the current bell housing mate up or will
>I need something special? Any help will appreciated!
>Thanks in advance..

The bellhousing for a 351W (but not a 351M) is the
same as the 300 I6. You will need a different throttle
cable (the carb on a I6 sits in a WAY different relative
place in the vehicle than the V8), a set of frame mounts
for the engine, and a bigger radiator. On the 80-86
F-series, the oil pan of V8's is "backward" from what
you find in most cars of similar age ... make sure that
the deep part of the pan is the back (no, you can't just
turn the oil pan around ... you have to get a new one if
the one you have is deep in the front ;-P ).
When you install the V8 frame mounts, you will have to
remove two of those &^ #^% $% idiotic factory
rivets that Ford so generously applied to various vehicles,
so be prepared to get a workout if yer doing it by hand.
Other than this, it should be a relatively easy swap.

(


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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 03:59:43 -0700
From: John Lord
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - engine swap

I have done it with an F250 4x4 the bell housing is the same for the
300 I6, 302, and 351W. I made custom motor mounts then went back and
reinforced them when my engine saged and the crank pully hit the frame
while offroad. I used a bigger rad (actually a new one i had from a
440ci dodge) and i replaced the throttle cable with a rod (i set it up
like the early V8 trucks). I also ran into a problem with the exaust
manifold on the passanger side some exit straight back you might want to
look around for one that doesn't, my solution was a set of shorty, tuned
port headers that use a standard exaust flange. Headman makes them as a
bolt on replacemant for late model mustangs.
If you have the time and can find a way to get the mounts it is easy
and a fun progect.

PATRICK GREEN wrote:
>
> Looking for information on what is required to swap a 351w into an 85 F150
> currently equipped with an I6 300 and a C6.
> Specifically, will the current bell housing mate up or will I need something
> special? Any help will appreciated!
> Thanks in advance..
>
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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 06:49:42 -0400
From: pickup65 juno.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - 6 Lug Rims

>>>Wasn't that just the "Budd" style wheels from the F-5 and up though?
The
post here would indicate that there should be a dana rear end=8 lug.

I am no expert on the subject but this is what I have observed from
various junk yard excursions. I am interested in larger Ford trucks since
I own a 64 F500. I have been in the market for a two speed rear axle for
it so I check out evey large old ford I can find. I may be wrong on the
years since I mainly check the 61 to 66 trucks.

F350 dually's from 61-66 use the 6 lug Budd style 16" rims. Some are two
piece some one piece rims.

F500's from 61-66 use the 5 lug Budd style 20" rims. My truck has one
piece rims and a Rockwell 6.20 axle.

F600's and up form 61-66 use the Star type rim. This is the type where
the rim has no center section. The Star is attached to the axle and the
rim is affixed by bolts and clamps.

Also of note: Ford changed to the "Twin I Beam" setup in 1965. Not only
was the frame changed but lower parts of the cab also. This change was
only for the F100 and F250. The 65 and 66 F350's and up have the same cab
as the 61-64 trucks. They also have solid front axles.

What I am interested in is the Budd style F350 rim. The conversation may
have been more than a year ago I just remember someone saying they bought
new ones. Anyone remember?

Jon E. Purut
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://members.xoom.com/Chelley
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://home.att.net/jcpurut
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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 07:28:31 -0400
From: Linda Purut
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Direct Injection

>>>

Ford is working on this also. One added benefit if direct injection is
there is no need for a starter. The computer looks at crank position,
piston position, then sends a shot of gas at the proper cylinder and
sparks it off. Starts the whole thing a spinning.

Jon E. Purut
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://members.xoom.com/Chelley
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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 11:59:03 -0400
From: "George W. Selby, III"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Final (Hopefully) dizzy update

Why didn't you guys tell me a new distributor was only $40 to start with.
I was looking in the Summit catalog, and the cheapest one was $120. I
thought they were going to be expensive. Anyway, I went the 15 miles to
the Zone (Autozone) and got a dist, came home, plugged it in and nothing
happened. It was a dud. So I went back to the Zone and got the last one
in stock. I plugged it in and the Sasquatch fired right up. I ended up
using the manifold vac to answer that question, ran much smoother. The
reason I didn't use the junkyard one was the shaft had a high resistance to
turning. After I got the truck working with the new one, I scraped all the
sludge out of the lubrication holes, and squirted some parts cleaner in
there and spun it around. After a few minutes of this it worked free and
spins like the other one, and seems to work. I think I'll keep it for a
spare, as it was only $15, and the core for the reman one was $30. I sure
hope this fixes the whole problem of cutting off down the road, as I now
have replaced the oil pump, dist and valve stem seals. It is running good
though, terrorizing the neighbors already with the side exhaust. (My two
mile long road is the perfect test strip for any car, as it has a long
straightaway for acceleration, then railroad tracks on a corner for
suspension testing, and then a steep hill for final timing tuning under a
load, plus you can turn around on the hill and coast back to my driveway if
you stall out.)

George Selby
78 F-150 400M, 4 on floor, 4x4
IsuzuG prodigy.net

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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 09:33:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Daniel DiMartino
Subject: FTE 61-79 - coil blues

having electrical problems with my '68 250 240 6cyl.
after lots of contact cleaning it now cranks but i had
no spark at the coil/plugs. i put in a different coil
and it wouldn't turn over with a key but would if i
jumped the starter relay, pos pole battery to the pos
pole on coil... now i had spark and she turned over.
changed THAT coil out with another junk yard one (i'm
in spain, can't get one off the shelf, but one is on
the way by mail) and had the same problem like the
first original unit, turned over but no juice to the
plugs... the ignition at the dash is not original, but
has all the required lead plug in's.

also my starter relay has two small poles that if i'm
not wrong wire back to the ignition (?), to get it to
turn over i ended up leaving the red one off, with it
connected it would continue to crank the starter as
long as the ignition was on, everything works now, but
what did the red bugger do? all newer ford relays
only have one pole for an ignition wire but this older
one has two...

===
Daniel DiMartino

1968 F-250 soon to be a 4x4
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?

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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 10:38:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: draco pacifier.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re: Problem with new master cylinder?

Since my last post on this I have decided that the new master cylinder
is OK. I looked at it on the bench more carefully. When you push on
the cylinder fluid initially flows from the back cylinder. Then I feel
a spring compressing and fluid flows from the front cylinder.

This makes sense to me because the rear shoes need to move some before
contacting the drums. With this system the fronts won't start braking
until the rears contact the drums, increasing the pressure in the rear
system. This way front and rear brakes start applying at the same
time. Does that sound right?

The pedal goes to the floor while bleeding. With the motor running it
is soft until about an inch off the floor and gets hard. If I hold it
there it does not move further. To my mind this means the MC is good.
Is this a good assumption?

The truck stopped really well before and the only other thing I
changed was the proportioning valve so I figured that had to be it.
I went to Ford and picked up a new one. I also got a nifty baseball
cap that says "F-Series, 50 Yrs, Built Ford Tough, 1948-1998", front
views of the two trucks, and on the back a small Ford oval, but I
digress. The new valve made no difference.

Before I did all this work the truck had a disk brake master cylinder,
no proportioning valve, the lines to the master cylinder were hooked
up backwards, and the front disks dragged.

Peters, Gary (G.R.) wrote:
> There should be no free play in the pedal/booster linkage but there
> is in the brake mechanics (shoes/pads etc.) themselve which is what
> you feel when you start the engine.

So the presence of vacuum in the booster puts enough pressure on the MC
to take up the slack in the system? I assume that this does not mean
there is enough pressure to overcome the return springs on the rear
shoes to bring the shoes out to the drums. True?

> The bronco has the same identical sytem but has some mush even when
> everything is right but is still pretty firm. I attribute most of
> this to the dana 44 brake system.

I should have essentially the same braking system. What is it about
the 44 setup that you attribute this to?

Is it possible that the soft pedal is caused by expansion in old rubber
brake lines? I am considering replacing them next.


Mark in Southwest Washington
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.pacifier.com/~draco
- --
'74 F-100 Ranger XLT 4X4

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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 13:37:55 EDT
From: Bad4dFilly aol.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - ****WHEW***

Hey y'all! Just thought I'd tell y'all about my lil scare today. Well lately
I've been hearing a click click click when I accelerate. Dad finally took a
look at it and he was blown away. One of the front of the front two U joints
was almost completely disintegrated. It got so hot that it had changed colors
and there was metal on metal grinding. Scary part was I almost drove my truck
an hour and a half away on the freeway to go to a rodeo but I had dad check
out that clicking sound just for good measure and I am SO THANKFUL I did! It
would have disintegrated half way there. Then he told me the horror stories
of how a driveshaft could go right through the floorboards or jack your truck
up like a pole vault. Can we say "scary!!??" So, to say the least, I am glad
I didn't just ignore it and go or I would have been in some serious trouble!
So that's the cowgirls words of wisdom for today: Don't ignore something cuz
it won't just go away, it'll only get worse!!! He is fixing it as we speak
and I hope its ready so I can cruise to the rodeo tonight in my truck! Bye
y'all! =)

*~*~Lisa and Envy~*~*
*~*~Silly boys...trucks are for GIRLS!!~*~*
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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 10:53:04 -0800
From: "Erik Marquez"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Re: Problem with new master cylinder?

well...maybe.. The proportioning valve is responsible (if it's working) for
front to rear brake balance. But I've never really looked at a MC on the
bench, with fluid, and actuated the piston, so it is very possible the fluid
back flow is normal.


- -----Original Message-----
From: draco pacifier.com


>Since my last post on this I have decided that the new master cylinder
>is OK. I looked at it on the bench more carefully. When you push on
>the cylinder fluid initially flows from the back cylinder. Then I feel
>a spring compressing and fluid flows from the front cylinder.
>
>This makes sense to me because the rear shoes need to move some before
>contacting the drums. With this system the fronts won't start braking
>until the rears contact the drums, increasing the pressure in the rear
>system. This way front and rear brakes start applying at the same
>time. Does that sound right?
>
well...maybe.. The proportioning valve is responsible (if it's working) for
front to rear brake balance. But I've never really looked at a MC on the
bench, with fluid, and actuated the piston, so it is very possible the fluid
back flow is normal.

>The pedal goes to the floor while bleeding. With the motor running it
>is soft until about an inch off the floor and gets hard. If I hold it
>there it does not move further. To my mind this means the MC is good.
>Is this a good assumption?

I would think so,, It's what all of my fords have done


Erik Marquez
bronco78 mosquitonet.com
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.mosquitonet.com/~bronco78
Home of the BB decal
Bronco 78 in the BB chat room


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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 15:15:26 -0500
From: "Sky"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - 77 Ford Club Wagon Van 3/4 ton

Hi there y'all, I'm new to the list...I bought a 77 Ford Club Wagon Van 3/4
with Cleveland engine. Overall everything is very good, though there are a
couple of things giving me some problem. Hopefully, I can find my answers
here.

There would appear to be a vapor lock problem when the outside temperature
gets up, say, above 80-85 degrees then it starts to lose power and dwindles
in speed down to around 25-35 mph if I do not try to give it gas (if I do it
dies, but starts right back up). If I pull into a gas station and, while it
is running, hold a water hose on the fuel pump for 10-15-20 seconds it's
good to go for (depending on outside temperature) from a few to several
miles. Last summer with the exceptionally high heat it was really bad.
Everyone I've spoken with have all come up empty with any real solid answers
and, strangely enough, have offered some very weird solutions, from wrapping
tinfoil to putting clothespins on the fuel line!

Second thing is that while it has two main gas tanks it also has a
rectangular third, or saddle, tank in between the other two. While this
might be great for a long trip giving me around a thousand mile range it is
most peculiar for there is no fill cap, and it would appear that the in and
out lines are gravity fed from one of the other tanks. There is no way to
determine how much gas is in it. All dealers and mechanics I've spoken with
just scratch their heads in amazement. Any ideas?

Thanks in advance,
Sky




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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 14:45:34 -0700
From: Vogt Family
Subject: FTE 61-79 - TEL (Was: Re: 66 F100 project that has mutated into physics class)

On Fri, 28 May 1999, "John LaGrone" wrote:
>
> Very accurate about burning all of the air. The more air you burn, the more
> of the fuel charge you burn, the bigger the bang. You can never burn all of
> the fuel, though. The unburned fuel acts as lubricant for the valves. That's
> why we used to have tetraethyl lead additives. Hardened seats help, but you
> still have valve lubricants in the fuel recipe. Tetraethyl lead destroys
> catalytic converters BTW and that is the major reason it was removed. A nice
> additional advantage is that lead content in the atmosphere was lowered
> also. Eventually this alone would have brought us to some type of unleaded
> fuel anyway.

This year I learned in my engine machining class that tetraethyl lead
(TEL) is actually a notorious valve burner. Back in the 30s or whenever
it was introduced, they had to also come up with a compound to combat
this. It was some kind of a bromine compound. They added enough
bromine to make plain iron seats workable. When we recntly switched
back to unleaded, I guess the fuel manufacturers thought that the
decreased valve burning characteristics of unleaded made the bromine
unnecessary (which usually is the case). Or maybe the bromine needs the
TEL for some reason to function.

Birken
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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 17:07:44 CDT
From: "PitStop Performance"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Rear Disc Brake Swap

I have a 1971 F100 with 4 wheel dumbs, uh, I mean drums. I am going to swap
disc onto the front sometime this summer. I was wondering, has anyone here
ever swapped disc brakes onto the rear? If so, what did you use for a doner?

Thanks.


_______________________________________________________________
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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 17:47:22 -0700
From: Don or Bub
Subject: FTE 61-79 - 1972 ford f-100

what other makes of ford vehicles has the same arm rests as a 72 ford
f-100
thanks bubba
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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 21:30:10 -0400
From: "Forest V. New"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - 1971 truck


Its been a while since Ive posted anything but thought I would let list
members know that I just purchased a 1970 f-100 for parts. It has a nice
grill with good inserts, and factory air. I mainly need the cab and bed for
panel repairs on my truck, so if you need something let me know.
Forest New
racer23 mindspring.com

72 Ford XLT
69 MACH 1 Mustang
89 Ford Ranger XLT
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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 22:24:26 -0400
From: Becky & Greg
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Original Ford Wires

Becky & Greg wrote:
>
> > As for original wires there is something I want to know about them, do they
> > have right angles on the part that plugs into the distributor, or just
> > right angled boots ? I always hate the way they put a straight piece under
> > a right angle boot, so the wire comes out at about a 45deg angle. I hope
> > this makes some sense ...
> >
> The wires are of the straight wire/90 degree boot design which does give
> it that 45 degree appearance.
>
> Cordially Greg
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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 22:19:12 -0400
From: "Ted & Sarah Freeman"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Crankshaft questions

Okay folks, I can't figure out why I can't get my new crank to rotate.

I have had the main bearing surfaces line honed to verify straightness.
Put in new clevite 77 .10 bearings. (It's a 428 1U crank, ground 10/10).
I plastiguaged all the mains. All were either .001 or .0015 clearance
which according to the manual is right on the money. Cleaned all the
plastiguage out and removed the crank. Lubed all bearing surfaces,
installed the crank and torqued all bearings except number 3 to 100ft/lbs
of torque (95-105 recommended). Made the alignment of the thrust bearing
and torqued to specs. Now I can't even budge the crank. It will turn with
the caps loosened but not at the torqued value. What do you guys think I
need to look at? I'm thinking the thrust bearing is the culprit...but
wanted to get some input before I go into round 2.

Thanks,

- -Ted
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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 20:47:36 -0700
From: Art Verling
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Mass Air Conversion on 460

Has anyone seen a mass air convirsion kit for a 460 with fuel injection?
Who sells them?

Thanks,
Art Verling
AV ix.netcom.com
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Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 12:38:22 +0800
From: "David and Cherie"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Compliance Plate deciphering

Can anyone help me with Compliance plate deciphering.
I have a F350 that needs a lot of work but I am trying to find out what
year, options etc from the Compliance Plate
The plate is roughly

AK3JHS 43134 407987 73821D41

D M D C L Y

F 10000 129 4000

If anyone can help me
The only thing I know about it is I think it's a 67 model.
I'm in Australia if that makes any differance.
Regards Dave.


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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 22:07:44 -0700
From: "K. Moulton"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - '66 F-100 Physics Project :)

No kidding! Great class! Here's what I think I'm going to do w/ this
project... if I can't find a cheap or free intake w/ ports that will
match my heads by the time I have a couple days off in a row to do the
job, I'm going to go ahead and bevel the ports in the heads to match the
bigger intake ports. Then I'll see what the results of that are. That
is, unless someone sincerely tells me that doing so will destroy my
engine, in which case, I guess I'll have an intake from a '64 or '65 390
T-bird to trade or sell cheap :) Worst case scenario is I'll have to
bag the intake project and start hunting some used headers and a decent
2v that I can kit, basically just change directions for awhile. I was
going to ask about the easiest way to replace king pins, but someone
already did, and wow, what an answer! BTW, if there's anyone out there
within a 2 hour radius of Seattle who has some extra parts they want to
get rid of, I'm in the market for discussion. Thanks :)

Kathy
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Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 01:29:53 EDT
From: SHill48337 aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Crankshaft questions

In a message dated 5/29/99 7:25:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
oldparts ford-trucks.com writes:


and torqued to specs. Now I can't even budge the crank. It will turn with
the caps loosened but not at the torqued value. What do you guys think I
need to look at? I'm thinking the thrust bearing is the culprit...but
wanted to get some input before I go into round 2. >>

I assume you base thinking the thrust bearing is at fault because it was the
last one torqued and after that it would not turn? I have had this same
problem several times, I will list what I found. BTW I did learn from
these admitted mistakes.
1. Installed Flex plate to aid in rotating crank during assembly and used....


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