61-79-list-digest Friday, September 25 1998 Volume 02 : Number 462



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1961-1979 Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

FTE 61-79 - Smelly Clothes
Re: FTE 61-79 - Re: 460 Swap
Re: FTE 61-79 - Piston Rings.....choices, choices, choices
FTE 61-79 - Pitons and Rings
FTE 61-79 - 61-72 Tail light lenses and other questions
Re: FTE 61-79 - 61-72 Tail light lenses and other questions
FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions
Re: FTE 61-79 - RE: Lubricants
Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions
Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions
Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions
Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions
Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions
Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions
Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions
Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions
Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions
Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions
Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions
Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions
Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions
Re: FTE 61-79 - Re: 460 Swap
Re: FTE 61-79 - Re: 460 Swap
Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions
Re: FTE 61-79 - Re: 460 Swap
Re: FTE 61-79 - Piston Rings.....choices, choices, choices

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Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 06:58:58 -0500
From: ballingr ldd.net (William L Ballinger)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Smelly Clothes

> the limited slip lube in first, then fill the case the rest of the way with
> regular 80-90 wt gear oil.
>
> Apparently, the Ford LS lubricant is really good, and you can still buy the
> little bottles from the Ford dealer. Don't get it on your clothes, though,
> the
> smell lasts forever!

Is that why my "play clothes" are always stacked in the garage? I
thought SWMBO was trying to tell me something, but I didn't know what.
- --
Come on over to my Back Porch
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.ldd.net/scribers/ballingr
Ballinger
ballingr ldd.net
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Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:17:58 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Re: 460 Swap

From: "Melayne Arnold"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Re: 460 Swap
Date sent: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 00:49:19 -0400

> dealership. The 460 swap is like most other things, it's really pretty
> simple, AFTER the first time when you learn what works and what doesn't.
> Someone else may have come up with a cheap junkyard way to mount the 460,
> but I never did. For my money, the L&L mounts are worth every penny.

I've never used them but I still totally agree. I made my own from several
other mounts, welded together and also made my own stanchions. GET
THE L&L's!!! I also priced the OEM mounts and over $300 is correct...:-(

I still have the original stanchions and will be using them to restore the
mounts with L&L mounts next time I pull it , trust me :-)


A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:20:06 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Piston Rings.....choices, choices, choices

Date sent: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 17:57:05 -0700
From: Steve & Rockette Leitch
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Piston Rings.....choices, choices, choices

> >As long as we're on the subject of rings, has anyone seen or used gapless
> >rings? They seem to be all the rage in top fuel this year.
> >
>
> I used them in my late, great 57 F100's 289. Very good IMNSHO,
> it lost 3# of compression on average in 80,000 miles.

Can you get them in Moly?

A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 07:40:28 -0500
From: ballingr ldd.net (William L Ballinger)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Pitons and Rings

> As long as we're on the subject of rings, has anyone seen or used gapless
> rings? They seem to be all the rage in top fuel this year.

They sound great to me, from all I've read. You have to have a
thermal-expansion stable design of piston. Forgings expand too much,
cast would likely be too weak for all out running, so my money would be
on the Keith Black pistons. (hypertuectic, I think it's spelled) They
are supposed to be as strong as a forging, with the expansion
charachteristics of a cast piston.

My .02 on rings. Hastings, Hastings, Hastings. They make a fine set of
rings. I'd select a set with a moly top ring and a cast second, with a
standard oil ring. On running ring movement, which some mechanics don't
believe happens, a used piston and new rings and wider skirt clearances
(after honing) will be most likely of all scenarios to do this. Using
the ring land cleaner tool I reccomended in my last post on the subject
and solvent to clean the grooves will resurface them to a degree, but
they will probably still be worn slick enough to let the rings turn a
little. I'd be very wary of using a broken ring to clean the grooves,
if you gouge up the surface, your rings won't fully seal. Also, when
honing, take your time. Get as good of a hone as you can get your hands
on. Use the reccomended drill speed for the hone type, and consistant
strokes. Don't take off any more than neccesary. You'd be amazed at
what an over-enthusiastic hone job can do to your skirt clearance.

I still stand by my reccomendation to bore it and replace the pistons
though. It can be a real dissapointment to do all of this work and have
a noisy oil burner after 30K for your reward.
- --
Come on over to my Back Porch
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.ldd.net/scribers/ballingr
Ballinger
ballingr ldd.net
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Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:16:48 -0500
From: "Smith, Brian"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - 61-72 Tail light lenses and other questions

Dear list,
what year did ford change the size of the tail light lens from the shorter
67-72 lens to the longer lens? Are there any differances between the bolt
patterns on 67-72 fenders? (ie are they interchangable?)


Brian H. Smith
1959 TR3
1972 Spitfire IV
1977 TR7
Lake Charles, LA
and a 1967 f-100 with a '83 351W and 3 on the tree

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Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:25:26 -0400
From: Joe & Jen DeLaurentis
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - 61-72 Tail light lenses and other questions

Brian,
the fenders are interchangeable between the 67-72's...MOst parts Are!
AS for the tail lights..DOT changes forced auto makers to have bigger
tailights and illuminated side markers in the early 70's.So in 73
The ford trucks got a redesign..
Joe
68 4x4
68 4x2
70 4x4
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Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:43:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Sean O'Malley"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions

Hi all,

I've got a 78 f-150 4x4 with the 300-I6, a "rebuilt" Carter 1bbl
carb, no emission controls whatsoever, a cheesy little 6" chrome
air cleaner, single exhaust with a glasspack muffler, and the
4 speed "stump puller" manual trans. The truck has 85k on it
and runs smoothly when it's fully warmed up; however... (you
knew there had to be a 'however,' didn't ya ? :).

When she's cold, she's very finnicky about accelerating. IE, she wants
either almost no accelerator or all the way to the floor. Anthing in
betwen results in severe hesitation/ bucking. Sometimes, it'll even
result in a complete miss, followed by a "carb fart." Full accelerator
doesn't help immediately--the truck takes a few seconds of full pedal
before the stumbling goes away. Now, on a moto, carb farts usually
mean the vehicle is running lean. Is that the same for car engines?
Perhaps that air cleaner and the glasspack breathe too well for that
itty-bitty carb? The choke seems to be functioning okay--she starts
easily and idles high when cold. If anything, it's adjusted a bit on
the long side (IE the fast idle stays on longer than normal). I don't
know if this is relevant, but: even when she's hot, there's a tiny
delay between blipping the throttle and actual engine response.
You hear the carb suck in air, then the engine revs. Again, that
happens especially when the motor is cool or when it's hot but
has been shut off for a few minutes.

BTW, the truck came to me this way. I didn't put the silly little
chrome thingy on there :-). I've been meaning to stop by a junkyard
and pick up a stock airbox.

So, what do y'all think is wrong, and why? (IE, I want to learn
the principles instead of someone just telling me what screw to
turn :). My goal is to be able to maintain this truck completely
on my own. I have the manual that parts shops sell for this truck
(Haynes? not Chilton). It probably tells me what I need, but I'm
not even sure what question I need to be asking of it :).

Pardon my ignorance, folks. I've got decent mechanical aptitude, but
my knowledge of principles and procedures is really spotty...

Speaking of principles, can anyone explain to me how carb mixture
settings work? Idle mixture seems to be an important issue, but
then if that's all one adjusts for a freer breathing system, what
happens in the mid and high range? As yall can see, I'm kind of
adrift, here...

Thanks,

- --sean
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:58:48 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - RE: Lubricants

Date sent: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 23:27:07 -0500
From: DAN & MARSHA HERRMANN
Subject: FTE 61-79 - RE: Lubricants

> 85w-140 "THAT MEETS A GL-5 SPEC". This already has the additive in it.
> The old Limited Slip additive you buy in the parts store is for the older
> straight-weight gear lubes like EP-90 or EP-140 that only meets a GL-3
> spec. Stay away from a GL-1 spec, this is straight mineral oil.

Thanks for the gear lube info, now how about some insight on Type F?

A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:07:50 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions

From: "Sean O'Malley"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions
Date sent: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:43:47 -0400 (EDT)

> betwen results in severe hesitation/ bucking. Sometimes, it'll even
> result in a complete miss, followed by a "carb fart." Full accelerator
> doesn't help immediately--the truck takes a few seconds of full pedal
> before the stumbling goes away.

My first inclination is accellerator pump but idle mixture can be the problem
too. Holley's are especially sensitive to these adjustments because the
transition metering stinks but most carbs are weakest in that area so you have
to make some allowance for it by enriching the idle mixture or enlarging the
main jets or setting the float a tad higher or changing the spec on the
accellerator pump.

Timing can enter in there too but if its close the carb is usually the culprit.
Check the vac on the dizzy too and make sure it moves freely etc..

A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:16:13 -0400
From: Tony Marino
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions

Sean- Been there, done that!

I can almost guarantee that the problem will be fixed for less than $10
bucks! Put a manual choke on your carb, start driving down the road under
light acceleration and gradually pull the choke closed and about half way
all of a sudden everything comes out nice and happy! Part of the problem
is that big aircleaner- you have way to much airflow for the carb- It'll
lead to another problem that the guys on the group helped me solve about a
year ago that I think was termed "carb icing" where you're truck won't
hardly idle even when it's warmed up in moist weather.
Don't fool with the accelerator pump- 6's are VERY forgiving on
accelerator pump adjustments and you can even disable the pump on the
single barrel Carter carb and still have the truck driveable as long as you
accelerate slowly. (linkage broke once on mine) This should be a last
resort. As far as timing- that could be a little portion of the problem,
it might need to be cranked up a bit, but check the choke first.
How do I know this? 8-) My '78 did the same exact thing when I got it
when I had the single barrel carb on it. I went through the route of
tracing everything electrical known to man, and even put a rebuilt carb on
it and it did the same thing- timing was also on key and spark was good and
strong. I also ran a 4bbl aircleaner on mine (picture can be seen:
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.pscico.com/~tony/pics/78engine.jpg) with a spacer/adapter plate
a friend made, and have the 4spd non-emission etc-

Tony
tony pscico.com
www.pscico.com/~tony

At 09:43 AM 9/25/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I've got a 78 f-150 4x4 with the 300-I6, a "rebuilt" Carter 1bbl
>carb, no emission controls whatsoever, a cheesy little 6" chrome
>air cleaner, single exhaust with a glasspack muffler, and the
>4 speed "stump puller" manual trans. The truck has 85k on it
>and runs smoothly when it's fully warmed up; however... (you
>knew there had to be a 'however,' didn't ya ? :).
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:23:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Sean O'Malley"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions

> Check the vac on the dizzy too and make sure it moves freely etc..

Okay, let me make sure I've got the concept here right. There's
a vacuum line that runs to the distributor. This line runs some
kind of doohickey that advances or retards (which?) the timing
as the engine revs up, right?

To make sure this works, do I just use a timing light and make
sure the timing mark moves the correct direction with revs, or
is there some static test I should do with the engine off?

Thanks,

- --sean
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:27:18 -0500
From: "Dennis Witthuhn"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions

try putting the stock airbox back on it sounds like the cold air is your
problem. when you put the stocker back on make sure you hook up the hose
from the box around the exhaust manifold to the underside of the airbox.
that should take care of you
- -----Original Message-----
From: Tony Marino
To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
Date: Friday, September 25, 1998 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions


>Sean- Been there, done that!
>
> I can almost guarantee that the problem will be fixed for less than $10
>bucks! Put a manual choke on your carb, start driving down the road under
>light acceleration and gradually pull the choke closed and about half way
>all of a sudden everything comes out nice and happy! Part of the problem
>is that big aircleaner- you have way to much airflow for the carb- It'll
>lead to another problem that the guys on the group helped me solve about a
>year ago that I think was termed "carb icing" where you're truck won't
>hardly idle even when it's warmed up in moist weather.
> Don't fool with the accelerator pump- 6's are VERY forgiving on
>accelerator pump adjustments and you can even disable the pump on the
>single barrel Carter carb and still have the truck driveable as long as you
>accelerate slowly. (linkage broke once on mine) This should be a last
>resort. As far as timing- that could be a little portion of the problem,
>it might need to be cranked up a bit, but check the choke first.
> How do I know this? 8-) My '78 did the same exact thing when I got it
>when I had the single barrel carb on it. I went through the route of
>tracing everything electrical known to man, and even put a rebuilt carb on
>it and it did the same thing- timing was also on key and spark was good and
>strong. I also ran a 4bbl aircleaner on mine (picture can be seen:
>http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.pscico.com/~tony/pics/78engine.jpg) with a spacer/adapter plate
>a friend made, and have the 4spd non-emission etc-
>
>Tony
>tony pscico.com
>www.pscico.com/~tony
>
>At 09:43 AM 9/25/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>Hi all,
>>
>>I've got a 78 f-150 4x4 with the 300-I6, a "rebuilt" Carter 1bbl
>>carb, no emission controls whatsoever, a cheesy little 6" chrome
>>air cleaner, single exhaust with a glasspack muffler, and the
>>4 speed "stump puller" manual trans. The truck has 85k on it
>>and runs smoothly when it's fully warmed up; however... (you
>>knew there had to be a 'however,' didn't ya ? :).
>== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
>

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:36:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Sean O'Malley"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions

> bucks! Put a manual choke on your carb, start driving down the road under
> light acceleration and gradually pull the choke closed and about half way
> all of a sudden everything comes out nice and happy! Part of the problem

So I need to run with more choke while she's cold, to richen things up?
My old Honda Shadow needs that treatment--gotta run it on partial choke
until it's good and hot to avoid hesitating. The Sportster, OTOH, does
just fine (but it's been rejetted).

Could this also be fixed by changing idle mix and/or jetting? Motorcycle-
heads are constantly trying to figure out if their bikes are jetted
right, since the factories apparently set them up lean to pass EPA
requirements. Car/truck folks don't seem to care as much. Any ideas
why?

> is that big aircleaner- you have way to much airflow for the carb- It'll

That's kind of what I thought, though mine is one of those little
bitty chrome disks--take yours from the picture and shrink it to
half the diameter or so. It still flows a lot, I'm sure. Am I
risking burning the valves? (Note, I know lots of questions to
ask, but haven't necessarily learned how to properly alleviate
the problems associated with them :-).

When you put the 4bbl on, how did that affect the engine's performance?
A 300 isn't exactly a rev-monster, so it's not like you were looking
to get more power at high rpms :-).

> http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.pscico.com/~tony/pics/78engine.jpg

NICE! BTW, your truck looks frighteningly similar to mine. I'll have
to post a picture for you to check out.

- --sean
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:51:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Sean O'Malley"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions

> try putting the stock airbox back on it sounds like the cold air is your

I'm definitely going to try that. Just gotta head by the junkyard on
the way home today.

> from the box around the exhaust manifold to the underside of the airbox.
> that should take care of you

How finnicky/delicate is the little thermostat-like valve on that
connection? The stock manual warns that the vehicle will overheat
if this valve gets stuck open. Any way to check on a junker airbox
to make sure the valve works?

Thanks,

- --sean
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Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:56:24 -0400
From: Tony Marino
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions

Sean-

There are two styles of distributors that you could have on your 6. One is
a dual advance diaphram, the other a single adv. diaphram. The dual will
have a vacuum port on the face of the diaphram, and one on the top- this is
generally used on the later models with emissions- the single is most
common. With a single you should have a vacuum line that runs out of the
carb near the baseplate and down straight to the distributor diaphram.
When timing your truck, you want to make sure you take one end of the hose
off so that the distrib receives no vacuum. At idle is when vac is the
Least in this setup (manifold vac is the most) as the engine speed
increases it draws a higher vac (greater airflow) through the airhorn of
the carb and increases vac pressure in the hose drawing the diaphram on the
distributor to pull a lever on the side and advance your timing. EVERY 300
I-6 that I've dealt with shows no vac at idle on these carbs, so if you
plug the vac line back in and it doesn't advance, don't worry about it,
just make sure as you increase RPM that it does increase in vac though. (oh
yeah, with a dual advance distributor- the vac line on the top of the
diaphram should be attached to a manifold port)
Your timing should fall between the range of 8-12 at idle (approx 3/4 of
the way down on the timing scale attached to the block), and with the vac
advace hooked up at 2000rpm should be around 30-40deg. After you set your
timing and it's correct, then you mess with the air/fuel ratio mixture on
the carb- keep in mind this mixture screw on the Carter single barrels is
ONLY for Idle Mixture and has no effect on the performance above 1200 rpm.
Basically you just set this where your manifold vac is strongest. (about
2.5 turns out hold true pretty well)

Happy Tuning-
Tony

At 01:23 PM 9/25/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> Check the vac on the dizzy too and make sure it moves freely etc..
>
>Okay, let me make sure I've got the concept here right. There's
>a vacuum line that runs to the distributor. This line runs some
>kind of doohickey that advances or retards (which?) the timing
>as the engine revs up, right?
>
>To make sure this works, do I just use a timing light and make
>sure the timing mark moves the correct direction with revs, or
>is there some static test I should do with the engine off?
>
>Thanks,
>
>--sean
>== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
>
>
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:53:48 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions

From: "Sean O'Malley"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions
Date sent: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:23:17 -0400 (EDT)

> > Check the vac on the dizzy too and make sure it moves freely etc..
>
> Okay, let me make sure I've got the concept here right. There's
> a vacuum line that runs to the distributor. This line runs some
> kind of doohickey that advances or retards (which?) the timing
> as the engine revs up, right?

With ported vac you will have no advance at idle but it will gradually allow
manifold vac to act on the dizzy vac as you open the throttle. With manifold
vac (which I use) you can run leaner idle mixtures but then your accellerator
pump becomes more important because at idle you will pull the vac to full
advance which requires a leaner mixture but then leaves the transition too lean
without some pump help. The vacuum pulls the dizzy to full advance and as
the vac drops as it does in WOT it allows it to retard so higher vacuum
means more advance, less means less advance as far as the initial under
WOT.

> To make sure this works, do I just use a timing light and make
> sure the timing mark moves the correct direction with revs, or
> is there some static test I should do with the engine off?

Manually check the workings inside the Dizzy with your hands with cap off
by attempting to move the vac plate against the vac spring and look for ease
of movemnt, smoothness etc.. To see if the vac is working, attach it to
manifold vac for the test and run the engine with timing light hooked up.
When you rev the engine the timing should drop suddenly untill the vac
catches up and should initially be about 40 degrees if the vac is working with
an initial static of about 10 degrees. It's very obvious so if you don't see
much change the vac is probably not doing what it's supposed to.

If you are unsure what you are looking at disconnect the vac and rev the
engine while observing the light and then do it again with the vac hooked up.
You should see a dramatic difference in the way the timing changes between
the two methods.

A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:07:54 -0400
From: Tony Marino
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions

>So I need to run with more choke while she's cold, to richen things up?

Yeah, basically! While running my 14" aircleaner I actually had to keep the
choke slightly closed- sort of the wrong way to solve the problem, but it
passed the Ohio E-check that way so I wasn't leaving excessively unburnt
fuel in the exhaust!

>Could this also be fixed by changing idle mix and/or jetting? Motorcycle-

I know absolutely zero about motorcycles, but my other post addresses the
mixture screw-

>(Note, I know lots of questions to
>ask, but haven't necessarily learned how to properly alleviate
>the problems associated with them :-).

Questions are fine with me- I just hope Ken tells us if we're flooding the
group with too much stuff- I'll gladly talk to ya' in personal e-mail.

>When you put the 4bbl on, how did that affect the engine's performance?
>A 300 isn't exactly a rev-monster, so it's not like you were looking
>to get more power at high rpms :-).

Oh yeah! Had a big effect! I could hardly get it to run for a month!!! 8-)
(talk about tuning problems!) 600cfm was probably a little overkill, but
it takes it just fine now- and yes, you're absolutely right about it not
being a rev-monster. I actually noticed a big decrease on lower end torque
compared to what I had before, but what I gained through the 1500-3500 rmp
range I'll gladly trade. The engine has seen 5,500 rpm twice now (once on
accident, once while pulling) and it's enough to make me have to change my
shorts- I'm not use to rpm.

>NICE! BTW, your truck looks frighteningly similar to mine. I'll have
>to post a picture for you to check out.

I'd like to!

Tony
tony pscico.com
www.pscico.com/~tony
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Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:36:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: bkirking bcm.tmc.edu
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions

Tony Marino wrote:
>all of a sudden everything comes out nice and happy! Part of the problem
>is that big aircleaner- you have way to much airflow for the carb-

How does one who doesn't have the stock air cleaner determine if it is the right size?
My 352 has some funny aftermarket air cleaner on it that came with the truck. Its got a really really small
diameter (maybe 6 inches?), but its Tall (maybe 5 inches?) . I've always been leary of it but never knew it
could cause any problems.

The area of the cleaner will affect the velocity of the air going into the carb (like putting your thumb over the
end of a garden hose causes the water to come out faster) and I would expect the type of filter element and
thickness will also effect the air velocity. But is there significant difference in the volume of air when using
different air cleaner sizes? Again, if you put your thumb over the garden hose, the same *volume* of water
comes out. I suppose there must be some difference in performance or there wouldn't be soooo many air
cleanger types. Perhaps it is more of a problem under transient (non static) conditions, which is why it
would cause problems only on accleration? Unlike water, air is very compressible so perhaps the garden
hose analogy isn't total appropriate.

This is very interesting. Now I need to figure out what size I SHOULD have on my 352.... Maybe then I'll
compare the original vs aftermarket sizes.

Is this enough theory for you Sean?





Bryan Kirking
66 Step Side
352 4 speed
Houston, Texas


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Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:57:53 -0500
From: William S Hart
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions

>How does one who doesn't have the stock air cleaner determine if it is the
right size?
>My 352 has some funny aftermarket air cleaner on it that came with the
truck. Its got a really really small
>diameter (maybe 6 inches?), but its Tall (maybe 5 inches?) . I've always
been leary of it but never knew it
>could cause any problems.
>
Ditto, I put an air cleaner off a 351 on my truck (the original is not in
as good condition) and have similar problems, so maybe I'll try puttin the
original back on and see what happens...


>comes out. I suppose there must be some difference in performance or
there wouldn't be soooo many air
>cleanger types. Perhaps it is more of a problem under transient (non
static) conditions, which is why it
>would cause problems only on accleration? Unlike water, air is very
compressible so perhaps the garden
>hose analogy isn't total appropriate.
>
With air being compressible (true, but can be assumed incompressible for
really high velocities or pressures) you just need to change the analogy to
say the same MASS of air is coming in (or out), but the pressures will
change and such, so if you assume compressibility it might make sense that
when you step on the gas, the pressure difference across the filter will
change and the density of the air will change slightly. I don't know that
this would be enough to affect things as 2 years of Aero E, 3 years ago
has degraded and don't remember much of it any more. But its a good
thought, that could make sense if you thought about it hard enough. On the
other hand it may be that the velocity is so high that its incompressible
and all of this is moot. *shrug*


>This is very interesting. Now I need to figure out what size I SHOULD
have on my 352.... Maybe then I'll
>compare the original vs aftermarket sizes.
>
Hmmm....wonder how K&N figures out what works and provides BETTER power and
all that ...


>Is this enough theory for you Sean?
>
Hope so, wouldn't want to have to dig out the books for you guys... ;)


Just my 2cents

Bill

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Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:58:43 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions

From: "Sean O'Malley"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions
Date sent: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:36:50 -0400 (EDT)

> So I need to run with more choke while she's cold, to richen things up? My

Usually a flat spot in transition is an indication of lean condition but not
always which is why we suggested the accellerator pump. Whether we
believe 6's are less fussy or not it still has to work if you want what most of
us consider "driveability". A manual choke is not the answer but can be
used untill you figure it out in a pinch.

> Could this also be fixed by changing idle mix and/or jetting? Motorcycle-
> heads are constantly trying to figure out if their bikes are jetted right,

Idle mix and main jets affect the transition but enlarging the jets to fix the
transition when the cruise and WOT mixture is already correct is a mistake.

> > is that big aircleaner- you have way to much airflow for the carb-
> > It'll

There is no such thing as too much air flow to the carb but there is such a
thing as the wrong inlet horn or air cleaner bottom shape or size which
affects the flow at the opening in the top of the carb. More flow is
ALWAYS better as long as it is not disrupted by a poor inlet shape which is
what most after market air cleaners do unfortunately. If you run the strip
with your air cleaner off to get more air flow and then run it again with only
the bottom plate of the air cleaner in place you will see what I mean. With it
in place you will see an improvement in performance over an open carb with
no air cleaner or base on it.

> When you put the 4bbl on, how did that affect the engine's performance? A
> 300 isn't exactly a rev-monster, so it's not like you were looking to get
> more power at high rpms :-).

Putting a 4v on without changing the cam may be a mistake too depending
on the size and make of the carb etc.. An engine needs to be able to generate
a strong pulse in the venturi for good metering and large carbs generally
reduce the pulse strength unless you have built the engine to create more flow
such as with a different cam and intake etc. so that at WOT the engine will
bog due to over lean mixture and at higher rpms "may" begin to come
around depending on how radical you get.

A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:35:21 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions

From: bkirking bcm.tmc.edu
Date sent: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:36:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions

> >all of a sudden everything comes out nice and happy! Part of the problem
> >is that big aircleaner- you have way to much airflow for the carb-

Drag racers may argue this point :-) If this were true then a super charger
would be no advantage since all it does is improve the air flow through the
engine :-)

> The area of the cleaner will affect the velocity of the air going into the
> carb (like putting your thumb over the end of a garden hose causes the
> water to come out faster)

Air cleaners need to be large enough to allow air to flow at the rate the engine
demands with minimal pressure drop at the carb inlet. The denser the
element the larger it has to be to meet that criteria but as I said the shape of
the cleaner base plate and it's relative location to the top of the carb (inlet) are
more important than the filter itself as long as it flows enough air.

The squirting hose is under considerably more pressure than what the carb
deals with. Ram air can increase the pressure above ambient but you are still
only working with the "difference" between the manifold pressure and the
carb inlet pressure to push the air into the engine. That generally means the
difference between 14 psi and a few pounds less in the manifold which
won't do much squirting and is easily foiled in it's attempt to get the air into
the engine so we have fancy cleaner bottoms, filter chargers, horns, and
super chargers etc. to try to improve this.

A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:50:13 EDT
From: Boon40 aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Re: 460 Swap

I have a 78 4x4 with a 400. If i swap a 460 , will the bell housing match up?
I have a c-6 transmission. Thanks , boon
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Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:11:40 -0700
From: John MacNamara
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Re: 460 Swap

Yes, just need motor mounts from L&L and various modified brackets for 460. L&L
also sells these.

Thanks
John

78 F250 4X4 Supercab
74 Stroppe Bronco
67GT500

Boon40 aol.com wrote:

> I have a 78 4x4 with a 400. If i swap a 460 , will the bell housing match up?
> I have a c-6 transmission. Thanks , boon
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Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:18:49 -0500
From: "Dennis Witthuhn"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions

the way tyo check it is to start the engine now while it is running unplug
it and see if the rpms change. if they do its working properly if not its
not, simple
- -----Original Message-----
From: Sean O'Malley
To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
Date: Friday, September 25, 1998 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '78, 300 six questions


>> Check the vac on the dizzy too and make sure it moves freely etc..
>
>Okay, let me make sure I've got the concept here right. There's
>a vacuum line that runs to the distributor. This line runs some
>kind of doohickey that advances or retards (which?) the timing
>as the engine revs up, right?
>
>To make sure this works, do I just use a timing light and make
>sure the timing mark moves the correct direction with revs, or
>is there some static test I should do with the engine off?
>
>Thanks,
>
>--sean
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>
>

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Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 16:18:06 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Re: 460 Swap

From: Boon40 aol.com
Date sent: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:50:13 EDT
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Re: 460 Swap

> I have a 78 4x4 with a 400. If i swap a 460 , will the bell housing match
> up? I have a c-6 transmission.

Yes but the flex plates are not the same nor are the mounts..........it's a long
story but relatively easy swap :-)


A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 16:22:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: hurdj VAX.CS.HSCSYR.EDU
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Piston Rings.....choices, choices, choices

On Fri, 25 Sep 1998, Gary, 78 BBB wrote:

> Date sent: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 17:57:05 -0700
> From: Steve & Rockette Leitch
> Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Piston Rings.....choices, choices, choices
>
> > >As long as we're on the subject of rings, has anyone seen or used gapless
> > >rings? They seem to be all the rage in top fuel this year.
> > >
> >
> > I used them in my late, great 57 F100's 289. Very good IMNSHO,
> > it lost 3# of compression on average in 80,000 miles.
>
> Can you get them in Moly?
>
Yep! I am running the Total Seal TSS (street/strip) gapless rings....


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