61-79-list-digest Thursday, September 24 1998 Volume 02 : Number 460



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1961-1979 Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

FTE 61-79 - Platinum Plugs
: FTE 61-79 - rings
FTE 61-79 - Assembly lubes
Re: FTE 61-79 - Ring Lands
Re: FTE 61-79 - Daddy's little girl
FTE 61-79 - Need 72 long bed tailgate
Re: FTE 61-79 - plastigage
FTE 61-79 - More education needed
FTE 61-79 - chrome removal
Re: FTE 61-79 - Assembly lubes
FTE 61-79 - Re:Dana 60 axle
Re: FTE 61-79 - rebuild dry
Re: FTE 61-79 - re:different axle ratios
Re: FTE 61-79 - More education needed
FTE 61-79 - Re: Ouch
FTE 61-79 - Re: Truck trim
Re: FTE 61-79 - More education needed
FTE 61-79 - ADMIN: Translation?
FTE 61-79 - ADMIN: Two more milestones
FTE 61-79 - Gear Lube

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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 06:51:27 -0500
From: ballingr ldd.net (William L Ballinger)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Platinum Plugs

>
> The best asset for that back plug on the passenger side bank is a swivel
> headed ratchet and a socket that is exactly the right length. The next
> ingredient is a lot of patience and blood that clots like it should.
> Install platinum plugs and they should be in there for a while. I never
> have pulled a head on that side, but the valve cover is a #$ %%%
> (substitute your favorite expletive here).

One thing about platinum plugs is that they have higher resistance than
normal ones. If you have a non-electronic ignition or a coil with
points-type energy levels you wouldn't really gain anything, maybe even
go backwards in performance and service interval. IMHO (-:
- --
Come on over to my Back Porch
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.ldd.net/scribers/ballingr
Ballinger
ballingr ldd.net
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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 06:35:34 -0500
From: "James Elliott"
Subject: : FTE 61-79 - rings

John Wrote:
>If you can get your piston out without reaming the ridge, then
>your engine has very little wear since its rebuild and I wouldn't mess with
>the rest of the cylinders unless you just want to.

I don't necessarily agree with not messing with the others. Earlier in this
post, John said ". Cast iron rings will seal faster, wear shorter ". This
is very true. While on one hand, if your compression looks good everywhere
but the one cylinder, the former may be a viable comment, the latter one
points out something important - that on an engine with cast-iron rings, it
can easily occur that performance is definitely below optimum because the
rings have worn, not be cause the bore is too worn to be serviceable. I have
many times taken engines with VERY high miles (over 100K) that were down 20%
on compression and upon removing the cast-iron-ringed pistons, with no need
to ream the top of the bore, seen remnants of the original hone pattern over
much of the 'active' part of the bore. This is due to the cast-iron rings
wearing faster than the bore wall. In such cases, I have merely had the
block honed well, gone to chrome rings, and had them running fine many
thousands of miles later.
However, if, like stated, the other cylinders have good compression, and
it is less than 60K since a rebuild, I would seriously consider just popping
the one piston out, LIGHTLY hone that bore, re-ring it with the same kind of
rings, and pop it back in. I would possibly even use the same rod bearings.
Remember, if this is the case, that all you are doing is replacing a broken
part, just like any other replacement procedure. You merely have to
ascertain whether the broken part cause ancillary damage. If going this
route, I would look at the valves, decide if they could stand freshening
while I had the head(s) off since typically performance degradation will
occur far faster from valve problems than cylinder wear. Even if they were
fine, I would probably invest in putting new valve seals in before I
reassembled.

Jim



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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 06:47:55 -0500
From: "James Elliott"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Assembly lubes

Pat Brown wrote:
As I will be assembling my daughter's engine in the next few weeks, I'd
like to hear everyones opinion on assembly lubes.


I use cam-lube/assembly lube on all cam/rod/main bearings, also on all other
sliding surfaces except pistons. For pistons I have used the same oil I plan
to run in the engine, except the last couple of times, I have thought 'what
the hey?' and used one of the 'miracle' treatments instead of regular oil,
like Duralube, etc. Figure it can be no worse....
As a note on dipping a piston: Instead of pouring up a bucket of oil, I
use a container a little bigger than the piston. For instance on one of
those D***** engines, a standard coffee can is just the right size.

Jim



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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:18:55 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Ring Lands

Date sent: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:57:58 -0500
From: ballingr ldd.net (William L Ballinger)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Ring Lands

> It's up to you, but if I were going to this much trouble, I'd bore it.
> I've seen few pistons worthy to refit (for a premium, hard working, long
> living engine) after 75,000 to 100,000 miles.

I have to agree, most of the time by the time you get the rings out and the
grooves cleaned up you have a very marginal pistion at best and since it's
aluminum the skirts are almost sure to be worn to some degree and to clean
up the cylinders so there is any hope of sealing the rings you will be taking
out 0.001" or more........on top of what's already been worn out by the
piston rings. The way I solved this on one engine which was in excellent
shape was to go to forged pistons (bought new pistons but didn't bore it, go
figure?? ) which have larger tolerances so I was able to use the original bores
with a light honing and ridge ream but I would never do it again. That engine
has about 70k miles on it now and still runs clean but the cylinders are not
perfect for sure and it was pure luck that It lasted so well. The pistons I
pulled out of that engine were useless for a rebuild but the cylinders were in
excellent shape (lucked out again eh?) so I made the preceding decision
based on natural mechanical aptitude but no experience which is why I say I
wouldn't do it again :-)

BTW, I uses moly rings and they sealed fine with 600 grit and 35 degree
cross hatch :-)




A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:26:04 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Daddy's little girl

Date sent: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:23:14 -0400
From: Tony Marino
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - rod bearings

> >A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
> >Dad keeps the best part :-)
>
> Ok Gary, I GOTTA ASK! I KNOW IT's off topic- but what do you mean?
> Did I miss an e-mail explaining this?

21 years of memories and she's still Daddy's little girl :-) I don't have to put
up with her tantrums or nagging or complaining but I still get to hug her when
she comes over and give her a little kiss now and then and enjoy the beauty
of her smile. I call that having your cake and eating it too :-) (and now he
has to give her money, not me :-))

Sort of like being a grand parent, you get to play with the kids but mom and
dad have to do all the work :-)

A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:28:17 EDT
From: Bdallas60 aol.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Need 72 long bed tailgate

I am restoring a 72 longbed f100 explorer. Most of the outside is done but I
can't find a tailgate. The one I have is rusted and banged up. Any ideas where
to find this?
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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:05:45 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - plastigage

From: am14 chrysler.com
Date sent: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:55:57 -0400
Subject: FTE 61-79 - plastigage

> JMHO. (would be difficult to express anyone elses opion, now wouldn;t
> it.)

Oh.........I don't know.......my wife does it all the time :-)

A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:30:25 -0500
From: David John
Subject: FTE 61-79 - More education needed

Hi all,

I am a slow learner so if it seems I have asked similar questions, I
apologize.

A little history: I am trying to learn about my truck (78 F250 4x4
supercab w/460, originally a 400?). And I am thinking about switching
the 4spd to an auto.

1) I was told how to translate my casting numbers to find out the year
of the 460 put into the truck. One problem: I don't know where to look
for the numbers, I'm guessing they are in a very oily and hard to see
place because I didn't see any. So please be specific and don't rip on
me too bad, as to where I can find my numbers.

2) I think I have found a donor for my tranny swap (78 F250 auto),
but........ in his ad it says 360 and when I called him he says 400. Be
gentle but how can I tell what engine is in there other than the obvious
look at the specs on the valve cover, I'm guessing none of that stuff is
there. I also know I need a c6 and np205, how can I for sure identify
these while they are in the vehicle (specific markings or #'s?)

3) Since I don't need the whole truck, what would a c6 and np205 cost me
for a boneyard, so I atleast have a starting ground on what to offer
him?

I'm going to look at it this weekend so thanks in advance for all your
help!!!!

David John
Wisconsin - 78 F250 4x4 Supercab Camper Special
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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:03:34 -0500
From: John LaGrone
Subject: FTE 61-79 - chrome removal

Several weeks (months?) back we had a discussion about chrome removal
tools. My new Harbor Freight catalog (#544) has the perfect tool set. On
page 23 in the upper right hand corner is a 4 piece windshield/door trim
tool set for $4.99. It is item number 38386-OUXH. For 5 bucks plus
shipping, you can't hardly go wrong. Harbor Freight's 24 hour number is
1-800-423-2567. Disclaimer: I have no connection with Harbor Freight.


- -John

jlagrone ford-trucks.com
1979 F150 Custom 351M C6, only one dent left from the crash
http://www.ford-trucks.com/jlagrone/henry.home.htm
1988 Towncar 5.0 EFI E4OD
1979 MC under restoration (my son loves old cars, too!!!)

Dearborn iron rules!!!!!!


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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:05:44 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Assembly lubes

From: "James Elliott"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Assembly lubes
Date sent: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 06:47:55 -0500

> other sliding surfaces except pistons. For pistons I have used the same
> oil I plan to run in the engine

Any "good" low ash oil will suffice but the two cycle suggestion was good
too since this oil is by nature "low ash". I would recommend any "turbo"
formula motor oil for this since it's primary advantage is low ash and it's
readily available and might even be the oil you choose to run in the engine, I
do, in all of mine.

If you clean the coffee can (good idea BTW) really well you can pour the
unused oil into the crank case when you are done so there is no waste too :-)

I personally like to leave it soak a few minutes to let the oil penetrate into the
wrist pin and seep all around the rings and move it around a bit to accellerate
the process.

A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:00:18 EDT
From: BDIJXS aol.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re:Dana 60 axle

Hey Drew,

Saw where you had an F-100 with a Dana rear axle. Must be a Model 60, semi-
floating deal? If so, yours is only the second one I've heard about. Just
about all the half-tons came with the 9" rear end. I took mine out and dropped
it off at the local junk yard. Do you need any spare parts, axles for example?
I'll bet they'd be tough to find if you need one! Let me know.

Just so you know, your limited slip carrier will fit into a semi-floating 3/4
ton style Model 60 housing. I did this conversion, but had to have custom
axles made....

How are things in the Springs?

Colorado Jeff



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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:34:31 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - rebuild dry

From: am14 chrysler.com
Date sent: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:11:54 -0400
Subject: FTE 61-79 - rebuild dry

> Messy as heck, but I get oil on all the moving parts. I also dip the rod
> ends after the bearings are inserted, and main caps also. I OIL

The problem with dipping the rod ends before the caps are torqued in place
is that oil can get behind the beairng inserts and insulate them from the rod
which breaks one of the more important heat transfer paths in the engine.
Piston temps can be affected by this because the heat stored in the piston
needs to travel down the rod to the crank where oil being pumped through
the crank can carry it away. By installing the inserts dry and keeping them
dry till you assemble the crank into the block and then only oiling the crank
you can maintain this dry, metal to metal contact on the back of the insert to
improve the heat transfer.

One of the results of improper heat transfer is enlarged wrist pins which will
gall or even seize in a tight engine. The other problem that can occur is the
piston will melt anywhere there is a sharp edge such as on the top ring land
edge. I don't know exactly how much effect this has on these things but was
led to understand that it's very important. Since there is no movement in this
area once it's torqued down there is no need for oil to be there anyway.

If you really stop and analyze what the engine parts need on startup you will
realize that a thin film of oil is all that's really necessary except for the cam
lobes and lifter tops which require a special high pressure lube such as 90 or
140 wt gear oil and there you can be generous. The reason you break in a
cam at 2k rpm for 20 minutes without shutting down is that it needs lots of
oil during the break in period to protect it while the lobes and lifter tops wear
in. The Assy lube or gear oil protects these surfaces untill the engine can get
up to speed and supply it's own oil. This is the only part of an engine where
forces are so great that such precautions are necessary but all moving parts
do need a thin oil film to protect them on start up.

A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:53:32 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - re:different axle ratios

From: "bill comstock"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - re:different axle ratios
Date sent: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:29:06 PDT

> just wondering; how can the axle ratios be that different without some
> fancy transfer case/tire size alterations (i know ive seen some
> combinations like higher ratio front and higher flotation tires for mud
> running, but they would tear u-joints on hard ground or pavement due to
> uneven torque) interested to know how driveable truck is

Didn't catch the original post on this but I've seen as much as .05 come from
the factory. Since there is a 1.44:1 ratio between the front and rear axles
(104" wheel base at 45 degrees) in a turn it's moot anyway because as soon
as you turn a corner on dry pavement you have wrapped up the drive shafts
sufficiently to damage the transfer case if you drive very far that way. This is
the reason no manufacturer will recommend using 4wd on pavement except
with full time all wheel drive which has an open differential between the axles.
(except the hummer which has a Torsen in the transfer case)

With 4.09 front and 4.11 rear I could lock up my transfer case in about one
foot of travel. If one tire on any axle is even a few thousandths different than
any other tire you will get the same result even in a straight line but perhaps
after more distance traveled, IOW, there is no way to safely run part time
4wd on pavement for even a few feet without releasing the pressure by
shifting out of 4wd occasionally even with brand new tires and exactly
matched gears. On any other surface which allows a bit of slip it doesn't
matter (within reason of course) if there is a difference.

By having the front slightly taller than the rear you create a very stable,
straight line dragster on snow and ice (I can vouch for that myself) because
the front end "drags" the rear end behind it keeping it in line. As long as the
difference isnt' too great this can actually be an advantage :-)


A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:05:54 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - More education needed

Date sent: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:30:25 -0500
From: David John
Subject: FTE 61-79 - More education needed

> 2) I think I have found a donor for my tranny swap (78 F250 auto),
> but........ in his ad it says 360 and when I called him he says 400.

If his truck is a 78 and the engine is stock then it's either a 300 six, 351M or
400. I don't believe they offered the 302 in trucks back then, not sure.
351m/400 have thermostat housing on block, not manifold, FE (360) has
intake manifold which extends under the valve covers and 429/460 has
thermostat housing on the manifold rather than block.

351M/400 and 429/460 use the same torque converter and tranny flange but
different flex plates and flywheels so you have to get these parts with the
"engine" not the tranny.

The FE's have a different tranny flange as do the small blocks and I6.

A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:08:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Pat Brown
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re: Ouch

I wrote about my bent truck:
> >Well, my truck joined Ken's, John's, and a few others as I recall.
> >While my son was driving to school this morning, a classmate decided
> >to occupy the same lane. Fortunately, no injuries. But, I now have
> >another insurance co battle to fight. The crew cab suffered a torn
> >off passenger side mirror, a bruised (front) door and fender, and
> >a badly mangled bumper :-(. The offending honda had same pieces
> >mangled on drivers side, but far more severely. I still can't figure
> >how that little honda folded my bumper forward a foot - she must have
> >been cookin'.
> >

To which Ken replied:

> My front bumper was bent badly from my encounter with the BMW.
> I think its because it has two very solid mounting points (frame)
> with no give so the bumper bends alot.

Yup. Mine also has a very solid "push bar" bolted on front of the
bumper. Upon further interrogation last night, I found that Robbie
saw her moving over, so he stopped. She then bounced off the door
and fender, snagging the bumper which tore the honda open like a
can opener. Fortunately, she also stopped before the bumper went
through the door / windshield pillar. Thank you, Thank you, Thank
you.

Pat Brown
Sebastopol, California

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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:12:21 -0500
From: lordjanusz juno.com (Paul M Radecki)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re: Truck trim

Some GUY posted:

>My truck had the original sales sheet that slips over the visor still
>on
>it.
>
>It reads like this:
>
>*Check these better idea benefits...*
>
>Styling...
>Modern masculine huskiness chrome grille and front bumper standard.
>Choice of 18 colours.
>
>Cab Comfort...
>Man sized-maximum visibility. Choice of 7 colour-keyed trims.
>

HEY! What did we say about sexist posts?! ;-)

lordjanusz juno.com

"The beatings will continue until morale improves..."

_____________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:31:25 -0400
From: Tony Marino
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - More education needed

I could get slammed for this- but I'm pretty sure it holds true- Easiest
way I found when first learing the difference between the Modified Engines
and the FE's was-

FE Spark plugs point both directions (front and back coming out of block)
Modifies all point the same direction.

Tony

>2) I think I have found a donor for my tranny swap (78 F250 auto),
>but........ in his ad it says 360 and when I called him he says 400. Be
>gentle but how can I tell what engine is in there other than the obvious
>look at the specs on the valve cover, I'm guessing none of that stuff is

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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 22:36:01 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: FTE 61-79 - ADMIN: Translation?

Can someone translate this?

Ken Payne
CoAdmin, Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com

>
>Bonjour,
>Je m'appelle Eric LEROY, j'habite =E0 BRUXELLES (Belgium) et je roule avec=
un
>Ford F-150 (4.9 liters EFI) model 1988.
>C'est un vehicule d'occasion sp=E9cialement import=E9 des USA. Il n'y a=
presque
>pas de voitures comme =E7a en Europe,
>et il n'est pas facile d'avoir des pi=E8ces de rechanges.
>Il existe chez les dealers FORD U.S.A. un livre avec toutes les pi=E8ces de
>rechange, un dessin et le serial number pour les commander.
>Pouvez vous me dire si cela existe sur CD ROM ?
>
>Merci beaucoups
>
>
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Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 00:11:24 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: FTE 61-79 - ADMIN: Two more milestones

This should have been announced about 10 days ago but I've been
very busy lately....

Ford Truck Enthusiasts surpassed 3000 subscribers! We've been
consistantly growing at a rate of about 160-175 new subscribers
per month since we started.

Additionally, last week we had our 350,000th visitor to the
main page. When using a visitor log analysis tool (which counts....


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