61-79-list-digest Tuesday, September 22 1998 Volume 02 : Number 457



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1961-1979 Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

FTE 61-79 - New Rings
FTE 61-79 - Joke/Relax
FTE 61-79 - New Rings
Re: FTE 61-79 - V8 Rings and gaskets and BEARings - oh my!
Re: FTE 61-79 - Tools
Re: FTE 61-79 - TRIM OPTIONS
FTE 61-79 - rod bearings
Re: FTE 61-79 - Trans Fluid question
Re: FTE 61-79 - fixing interior carpet
FTE 61-79 - Trans Fluid
Re: FTE 61-79 - Trans Fluid
FTE 61-79 - rod bearings
FTE 61-79 - rings
FTE 61-79 - HUMPS
Re: FTE 61-79 - Torque converters
Re: FTE 61-79 - Changing plugs and mashing knucles
Re: FTE 61-79 - rings
Re: FTE 61-79 - Changing plugs and mashing knucles
Re: FTE 61-79 - Changing plugs and mashing knucles
Re: FTE 61-79 - Joke/Relax
Re: FTE 61-79 - fixing interior carpet
Re: FTE 61-79 - rod bearings
Re: FTE 61-79 - Changing plugs and mashing knucles
FTE 61-79 - Assembly lube, Was Rings
Re: FTE 61-79 - rings
Re: FTE 61-79 - Changing plugs and mashing knucles
Re: FTE 61-79 - Assembly lube, Was Rings
Re: FTE 61-79 - Rear main
Re: FTE 61-79 - Assembly lube, Was Rings
Re: FTE 61-79 - Trans Fluid question
Re: FTE 61-79 - Changing plugs and mashing knucles

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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 06:52:54 -0500
From: ballingr ldd.net (William L Ballinger)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - New Rings

There's another issue to not reboring. The piston ring lands. Their
condition is just as and has as much to do with ring seal as the walls.
Decarbon them and look a couple of them (esp the weak cylinder)over with
jewelers loupe. If they wave or appear spread, I'd say rebore and
install new ones.
- --
Come on over to my Back Porch
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Ballinger
ballingr ldd.net
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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:10:25 -0400
From: Joe & Jen DeLaurentis
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Joke/Relax

Dear Truck Owners,

I am the guilty party of posting the Joke..But come on lighten up,
and to the fellow list members who say that this list is not made for
jokes, I do remember seeing post about Chevys, other cars, types of
wine to use ETC!! Lets grow up a little and take it what it was for
a LAUGH...thanks for listening, I know i will hear alot from this
message
JOE
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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:24:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: bkirking bcm.tmc.edu
Subject: FTE 61-79 - New Rings

William L Ballinger [ballingr ldd.net] wrote:
There's another issue to not reboring. The piston ring lands. Their
condition is just as and has as much to do with ring seal as the walls.

Uh.... what are piston ring lands?
Bryan Kirking
66 Step Side
352 4 speed
Houston, Texas


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:15:16 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - V8 Rings and gaskets and BEARings - oh my!

Date sent: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:59:20 -0700
From: Steve & Rockette Leitch
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - V8 Rings and gaskets and BEARings - oh my!

> happens, and when the gaps line up, you get serious blow by. If Iron
> rings are good enough for the factory, they're good enough for a reliable,
> long living, rebuild.....

Are you sure the factory doesn't use moly? I understood most of them do
now?

A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:22:14 -0500
From: "J Elliott"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Tools

Clare wrote:
> thread on the end (to grab or push the seal out with) and some sort of
> clasping cable thing to pull the new one aound with.
>
> any one ever used on of these?
>
Azie wrote:
> Never seen one. What brand parts store were you perusing ?? Was it a
> chain or just a local??
>
Clare wrote:
>i was at an Advance and the tool was not made by the typical Lisle; i
>dont remember who made it other than it had yellow and black backing paper
>on the bubble wrap packege. cost less than ten bucks.
>
1. From the packing description, and the store, it was probably from Cal-Van

2. I have not used one, but have seen them pictured in catalogs, like JCW,
for at least 25 years, they trick with the puller thing is that it the wire
loops on the end work like the old 'chinese finger-cuffs' that we used to
play with as kids, as you pull, it tightens, you push back to release the
tension.

Jim



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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:33:08 -0500
From: "J Elliott"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - TRIM OPTIONS

>To those of you who have 67-72 trucks please tell me what trim level
>you have the options that came with the trim level and the engine.
>Thanks
> Robert


Okay, '69 F-100 8-ft.Styleside Ranger - Custom Cab logos, (Western?) factory
swing-away mirrors, Stainless side molding (narrow with black stripe),
Gauges in dash, Explorer badge on Glove box, exact original interior unknown
(redone) but probably had some form of upholstered door inserts and has
padded armrests. Floor was probably just the heavy vinyl (still exists under
the carpet). 360, C-6, PS, PB. Radio has been changed.

Jim



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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:30:41 -0400
From: am14 chrysler.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - rod bearings

Bryan Kirking writes: >>Azie,
I am taking what I can from this thread to help with my rod bearings, but I
am unsure if you are saying you
would not bother checking bearing tolerance with plastigage on a daily
driver, or you would use a different
method?

If I tore down an engine and found the rods to be stamped .020 and the
journals all to be in good shape and the engine was running with no knocks
and I was familiar with it, I would simply go to the parts place and get a
set of .020" oversized bearings( for the undersized journal) and put it
back together. I have, on occasion reused bearings, but I consider all the
avenues 1st. Like Gary said, they are cheap insurance( last I bought were
around $30 for a set, I think). Plastigage is good "stuff" if you have the
time and the patience, but it is also agrivating to use. I trust my crank
grinder to be accurate, and I trust my parts store to give me the correctly
stamped bearings. I have heard of people getting bearings that were not
what they were stamped, but I never have.

I hope this explains my reasoning behind the statement that "I wouldn't
bother with useing plastigage".

Azie
Ardmore, Al.


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:39:28 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Trans Fluid question

From: "kingster"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Trans Fluid question
Date sent: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:35:34 -0500

> use dexron III, that is what the shop manual says for it to use.

I don't think dextron III was around in 78 (was it?) but it did call for dextron
II at that time as I recall. In my experience dextron is for GM's not fords
and type F works in all fords except the H-5 and probably works in that one
too. It gives firmer shifts and keeps the clutch parts in better shape as I
understand it but in my personal experience works better in a C-6 than
dextron II, don't know about III yet but that's coming soon I guess :-(

My 94 bird owners manual calls for the type F spec number which is
covered by dextron III specs so either type F or dextron III (with "Mercon"
spec) will theoretically work. I use Type F in my 94 bird (and everything
else :-))

If you really want good protection get one of the "pure" synthetic tranny oils
for better heat resistance and flow (really recommended for AOD's with
locking converters) but make sure it's all synthetic not a mix. Legally all they
have to put in is 5% to call it synthetic on the label.

A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:48:23 -0500
From: William S Hart
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - fixing interior carpet

At 11:08 PM 9/21/98 -0400, you wrote:
>speaking of carpet, i'm in the same situation, but i want to put a plain
>rubber mat in mine( i use my truck and the mat is easier to wash out) can
>anyone recommend a place to buy the molded to fit mat, besides ford, i
>understand they are expensive.


I got a rubber floormat from JCW and was very pleased with it. It came
with some underlayment too, so that helps deaden the sound quite a bit.
The hardest part is locating the holes for the shift boot when you get it
all done.

A helpful hint when installing the mat, be sure it is warm, makes it much
more pliable, I was trying to do mine in February here in Iowa, I ended up
starting the truck and running the heater, I was sweating but the mat laid
in a lot better.


Just my 2cents

Bill

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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:50:46 -0400
From: am14 chrysler.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Trans Fluid

Bob writes: >>I have a '78 truck with the 400M/C6 combo & have a small
question...The guy I bought it from doesn't remember what type of
transmission fluid he used last time he changed it. Does it matter what I
use when I change it now??? You would think that some one who would have
the forethought to install a transmission pan drain plug would remember
what type of fluid he used. Can you mix Dexron II or III with other types
of ATF fluids?? Or are they all the same??

I'll probably get flamed for this, but what the heck. My flame suit isn't
worn out by a long shot.

I use type F in everything I own. M*PARS as well as FOMOCOs. Dexron III
is a direct replacement for Dexron II and Dexron. The type F is said to be
thinner, but I don't know this. There is probably some very slight
chemical differences that could effect seal life, but I've been doing this
for at least 30 years and no ill effects that I know of. I use the mfg
recommendations on others vehicles, unless I know they will abuse it, then
I use type F and tell them. I build quite a few transmissions of all types
for the younger croud that likes to "bark" the tires when they shift, so I
install some shift kits. The one I use recommends type F in GM, MOPAR and
FOMOCO with 1 quart of Mobile 1 motor oil. I've had good success over the
years doing this, but I think all of the fluids are OK for normal use.

Flame away.

Azie
Ardmore, Al.


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:10:58 -0700
From: Dennis Pearson
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Trans Fluid

Thanks for your message at 09:50 AM 9/22/98 -0400, am14 chrysler.com. Your
message was:
>I use type F in everything I own. M*PARS as well as FOMOCOs. Dexron III
>is a direct replacement for Dexron II and Dexron. The type F is said to be
>thinner, but I don't know this. There is probably some very slight
>chemical differences that could effect seal life, but I've been doing this
>for at least 30 years and no ill effects that I know of. I use the mfg
>recommendations on others vehicles, unless I know they will abuse it, then
>I use type F and tell them. I build quite a few transmissions of all types
>for the younger croud that likes to "bark" the tires when they shift, so I
>install some shift kits. The one I use recommends type F in GM, MOPAR and
>FOMOCO with 1 quart of Mobile 1 motor oil. I've had good success over the
>years doing this, but I think all of the fluids are OK for normal use.
>
One quart of Mobil 1motor oil...Interesting. What are the benefits? I
might try this in my C-4 .
Dennis L. Pearson
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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:40:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: bkirking bcm.tmc.edu
Subject: FTE 61-79 - rod bearings

>Azie wrote:
.. found the rods to be stamped .020 and the
journals all to be in good shape and the engine was running with no knocks
and I was familiar with it, I would simply go to the parts place and get a
set of .020" oversized bearings( for the undersized journal) and put it
back together.
....
I hope this explains my reasoning behind the statement that "I wouldn't
bother with useing plastigage".

YES!!! That is what I thought. It also fits with what the parts store counter jockey told me.

Thanks for your help and clarification Azie!
Bryan Kirking
66 Step Side
352 4 speed
Houston, Texas


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:28:27 -0500
From: John LaGrone
Subject: FTE 61-79 - rings

Bryan,

I would use the chrome rings. Cast iron rings will seal faster, wear
shorter and are extremely easy to break during installation onto the
piston. If your truck had a recent rebuid, then the ring probably broke
while it was being installed onto the piston. You have to walk the oil ring
down the piston from groove to groove being very careful. The same goes for
the compression rings. Be sure to put the gaps in the compression rings
opposite from each other when you put the piston in the cylinder. I usually
point one to the front and one to the back. Some pistons have a pin for
proper positioning, some don't. Don't put them on upside down either. Put
the gap in the oil ring towards the intake manifold. Rings break very
easily very suddenly during installation. Luckily, you can buy individual
ring sets if you do break one. Resist the urge to reuse an old ring. If you
replace the rings, practice by taking the old rings off in one piece
instead of just breaking them out to get them off. It may take a little
longer, but the experience will be worth it. If a broken ring is indeed the
problem in that one cylinder and your rebuild doesn't have very many miles
on it, check for other goof ups, then put it all back together. If it ain't
broke, don't fix it. BTW there is a tool that you put around the piston to
compress the rings so that it will slide right into the cylinder. Theere is
also a tool for cleaning ring groves in the piston.

Someone had asked about the ridge on the top of the cylinder and if it was
better to take the piston out of the bottom. The ridge is much much much
smaller on the top. If there is a ridge on the top, there is also one on
the bottom. The ridge will tell you how much wear you have since the last
rebuild. If you can get your piston out without reaming the ridge, then
your engine has very little wear since its rebuild and I wouldn't mess with
the rest of the cylinders unless you just want to. If you have any ridge at
all, ream it before attempting to remove the piston.

I would never ever install a moving part dry. STP oil treatment will work
very well as a prelube for your pistons. I use it on cams and rod and main
bearings, too. It will stay up there while you are working on other
components. It will mix well with the oil when it starts circulating. It
will burn off in the combustion chamber. I have no opinion on the 35 degree
cross hatch honing mentioned.


- -John

jlagrone ford-trucks.com
1979 F150 Custom 351M C6, only one dent left from the crash
http://www.ford-trucks.com/jlagrone/henry.home.htm
1988 Towncar 5.0 EFI E4OD
1979 MC under restoration (my son loves old cars, too!!!)

Dearborn iron rules!!!!!!


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:27:27 -0400
From: am14 chrysler.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - HUMPS

Cannondale writes: >>it has what looks like a after-market transmisson
hump, it bolts to the floor, so I assume that it is? I have seen a blot in
deal on a friends '74 4x4, but it wasnt as tall as this one, im
guessing that it raises the floor 2", the one he has is raised 1", not
exact measurements, but close.

I just found out within the last couple of months that the factory had
different heights "HUMPS" for auto - 4 sp - and auto 4X4 - and 4sp 4X4.
Different height humps require different width carpets. I had never
noticed this difference until it was pointed out to me.(on this list)

Azie
Ardmore, Al.




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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:47:11 -0500
From: William S Hart
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Torque converters

Well I got the news a couple of minutes ago, the leak in my tranny is
probably a cracked converter. Doesn't sound too cool, but they said it
happens to old converters, and if I can guess the previous owner used one
from the 74, so its probably the original one for this motor and tranny.

Anyway I was wondering if you were all running stock converters, or higher
stall speeds or what, I've seen a lot and read a lot, but still not sure
what's best.

Its a 73ish 4x4 1/2 ton. C6 and 360 (4V), I'm looking at putting a 390 in
in the future, so I'd like to get a converter that will work for both. I
don't do a lot of towing or offroading, but need to be able to power
through some small drifts in the winter.

thanks for any help

Just my 2cents

Bill

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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:51:36 -0700
From: "Andrew W. Ford - Speaking For Myself"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Changing plugs and mashing knucles

Daniel H. Jenkins wrote:

> Anybody out there every changed the plugs on a 351M/400 with
> factory air conditioning? How in the hell do you guys get the number four
> plug out? I had to crawl underneat and reach up between the engine and
> the frame rail... Not exactly the way I'd been planning on spending my
> afternoon. Oh well. I was just curious what you guys did. Thanks.

[You don't say what year - I don't know if it makes any difference or not, but
I've got a 78 4x4 high-boy, automatic - YMMV]

Off the top of my head I can't remember whehter 4 is driver or passenger side
[why do you think God gave us books?] but ...

For the passenger side rear plug, I use a small socket extension (with barely
enough
clearance for the ratchet) and a small ratchet.

For the driver side rear plug, I first shift into low gear (automatic) to get the
linkage
out of the way, and then use a 4" extension and swing the ratchet on the fender
side
of the dipstick.

Both rear plugs are a little awkward, but with the right tools (and shifting the
linkage clear)
they only take a minute or two more than the forward six.

78 F150 Ranger 4x4 Supercab / 351M, C6
- --
Andrew Ford (602)581-4499
forda agcs.com Si vis pacem, parabellum.
Above is *my* opinion, for theirs see below...
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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:59:45 -0700
From: "Bill Beyer"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - rings

Just thought I'd throw my $.02 in and confuse the issue more. I too was
taught to always install pistons with a little 30W or something but I
recently talked to a neighbor of mine who makes a living working on gas &
diesel motors and he swears by dry installing the pistons. He also builds
sprint car motors on the side and says that he's never had a problem with
engines not breaking in since he started using this method 20 years ago.

- ----------
> From: John LaGrone
> To: Bryan Kirking ; Ford Trucks 61-79

> Subject: FTE 61-79 - rings
> Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 8:28 AM
>
> I would never ever install a moving part dry. STP oil treatment will work
> very well as a prelube for your pistons. I use it on cams and rod and
main
> bearings, too. It will stay up there while you are working on other
> components. It will mix well with the oil when it starts circulating. It
> will burn off in the combustion chamber.
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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:11:07 -0700
From: "Bill Beyer"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Changing plugs and mashing knucles

78 high-boy hmmm...OK...whatever you say.

- ----------
> From: Andrew W. Ford - Speaking For Myself
> To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Changing plugs and mashing knucles
> Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 8:51 AM
>
> [You don't say what year - I don't know if it makes any difference or
not, but
> I've got a 78 4x4 high-boy, automatic - YMMV]
>

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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:09:39 -0500
From: William S Hart
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Changing plugs and mashing knucles

>[You don't say what year - I don't know if it makes any difference or not,
but
>I've got a 78 4x4 high-boy, automatic - YMMV]
>
the 351M/400 wasn't available til the mid70's, so his is probably similar
to yours...


>Off the top of my head I can't remember whehter 4 is driver or passenger side
>[why do you think God gave us books?] but ...
>
The #4 should be the front drivers side I think, hence the complaint about
air-conditioning being in the way.... Ford numbers down the passenger's
side, then the driver's side if I remember right, Ch*vy does it odd one
side, even the other. This may not be true for ALL engines from both
manufacturers, but for the one's I've seen this seems to be true.


As for actually getting that plug out, no idea, none of my vehicles that
are or were that old had any of the factor a/c left on them. Just a side
note, ever change the 3rd plug on a 2.3 with multi port F/I ? When I
changed the plugs on my girlfriend's car I had to snake an extension
between the intake runners!!


Just my 2cents

Bill

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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:18:55 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Joke/Relax

Date sent: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:10:25 -0400
From: Joe & Jen DeLaurentis
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Joke/Relax

> I am the guilty party of posting the Joke..But come on lighten up,
> and to the fellow list members who say that this list is not made for
> jokes,

Joe, I didn't see the joke but understand it was meant for an adult audiance.
The objection comes from this, not the fact that it was a "joke". We all like a
little levity mixed into the posts but we need to keep our discussions benign
enough that children can read them with no complaints from parents etc..
IMHO, even the "couched" cuss words have no place in the discussions but
so far they have been tolerated.

I personally use "#$%^%$# $^&%$" to indicate my cussing or a nice
"GRrrrrrrrr!" from time to time makes the point :-)


A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:22:02 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - fixing interior carpet

Date sent: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:48:23 -0500
From: William S Hart
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - fixing interior carpet

> I got a rubber floormat from JCW and was very pleased with it. It came
> with some underlayment too, so that helps deaden the sound quite a bit.

You should also prepare the floor with a good coat of paint and let it cure
well before laying the mat because rubber mats don't breath and will rust out
your floor otherwise. I think I will be trying the Rhino lining eventually in my
bronco and eliminate all carpet completely for that "rinse out" effect :-)

A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:27:57 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - rod bearings

From: bkirking bcm.tmc.edu
Date sent: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:40:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - rod bearings

> .. found the rods to be stamped .020 and the
> journals all to be in good shape and the engine was running with no knocks
> and I was familiar with it, I would simply go to the parts place and get a
> set of .020" oversized bearings( for the undersized journal) and put it
> back together

> YES!!! That is what I thought. It also fits with what the parts store
> counter jockey told me.

One note of caution here gents........if someone has replaced bearings before
and found they were a tad loose he may have "sanded" the caps which will
affect the clearances so you should at least make a cursory check before
buttoning it up IMHO. I have no idea what factory tolerances on bearings
are when manufactured but they do have "a" tolerance so if you get a block
with sanded caps and tight bearings you could have a problem, just a thought
:-)

A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:50:20 -0700
From: "Bill Beyer"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Changing plugs and mashing knucles

On the 351M/400 #4 is passenger side rear. #5 is drivers side front.

- ----------
> From: William S Hart
> To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Changing plugs and mashing knucles
> Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 9:09 AM
>
> The #4 should be the front drivers side I think, hence the complaint
about
> air-conditioning being in the way.... Ford numbers down the passenger's
> side, then the driver's side if I remember right, Ch*vy does it odd one
> side, even the other. This may not be true for ALL engines from both
> manufacturers, but for the one's I've seen this seems to be true.

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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:59:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Pat Brown
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Assembly lube, Was Rings

Bill wrote:
> Just thought I'd throw my $.02 in and confuse the issue more. I too was
> taught to always install pistons with a little 30W or something but I

I use a bucket of oil. Dip that piston in it, pour oil in the hole, squirt
more oil on before the final tightening of the ring compressor. I figure
you can never use too much oil when assembling an engine.

> recently talked to a neighbor of mine who makes a living working on gas &
> diesel motors and he swears by dry installing the pistons. He also builds
> sprint car motors on the side and says that he's never had a problem with
> engines not breaking in since he started using this method 20 years ago.

Wow. Never heard that one before. I can see, in a twisted way, that
installing a piston dry would set the rings quick :-). My concern here
would be longevity. A dry ring on a dry cylinder is just going to create
all kinds of shavings and particles, especially a cast ring. It would be
interesting to hear what kind of rings your nieghbor uses.

Old trick to re-seat worn-out rings (as told to me by my boss, in a garage,
~25 years ago): Remove air cleaner, start engine, pour Bon-Ami (scouring
cleanser) in the carb, while keeping engine running. Abrasive in cleanser
will allow rings to re-seat. Supposedly. I've never tried it, probably never
will :-)

John wrote:
> > I would never ever install a moving part dry. STP oil treatment will work
> > very well as a prelube for your pistons. I use it on cams and rod and
> > main
> > bearings, too. It will stay up there while you are working on other
> > components. It will mix well with the oil when it starts circulating. It
> > will burn off in the combustion chamber.

I've heard lots of people recommend this, I've never tried it. I've always
felt STP was just too sticky to use on bearings. Same with white (lithium)
grease. It seems white grease dries out and turns into paste, although it
can take a long time for this to happen.

As I will be assembling my daughter's engine in the next few weeks, I'd
like to hear everyones opinion on assembly lubes.

Pat Brown
Sebastopol, California

'96 Bronco EB / 351
'94 T-bird / Wee-6
'87 Baby Bronco II / 2.9 l
'70 F-250 Crew Cab / 360 FE
'83 280 ZX, Block good, cracked cylinder head :-(

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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:01:16 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - rings

Date sent: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:28:27 -0500
From: John LaGrone
Subject: FTE 61-79 - rings

> I would use the chrome rings. Cast iron rings will seal faster, wear

I haven't used them because I've been told they are very hard to seat. Do
you have any personal experience with them, John?

> rebuild. If you can get your piston out without reaming the ridge, then
> your engine has very little wear since its rebuild and I wouldn't mess
> with the rest of the cylinders unless you just want to. If you have any
> ridge at all, ream it before attempting to remove the piston.

If you plan to reuse the pistons you should always ridge ream before
removing pistons. Pistons on all engines I've built "have" to come out the
top since the main bearing bosses overlap the cylinder walls at the bottom.
If you don't ream the ridge you risk damaging the ring grooves on removal of
the pistons since the ridge is essentially square and the camming action of the
ridge against the ring is very steep so puts considerable side load on the rings
when pushing the pistons out.

> I would never ever install a moving part dry.

Moving parts yes but bearings must go in dry and lube the crank rather than
bearings to prevent any oil from seeping behind the bearing backs. Bearings
should be installed dry to make a better metal to metal contact for heat
dissipation. Once the main bolts and rod bolts are tight it is what ever it is
going to be but up to that point you should keep them dry as possible on the
back side.

> I have no opinion on the 35 degree cross hatch honing mentioned.

That comes from a text book I had in an engine rebuilding class I took at the
local CC. Moly uses 35 degree with 600 grit, cast uses 45 degree with 400
grit and I can't remember what chrome uses but it's finer for sure.

these specs are to ensure the best possible atmosphere for the rings to wear
in evenly so they don't leak etc..


A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:05:00 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Changing plugs and mashing knucles

Date sent: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:51:36 -0700
From: "Andrew W. Ford - Speaking For Myself"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Changing plugs and mashing knucles

> Both rear plugs are a little awkward, but with the right tools (and
> shifting the linkage clear) they only take a minute or two more than the
> forward six.

You aught to try the passenger side on a 90 van........:-(

A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:15:06 -0700
From: "Bill Beyer"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Assembly lube, Was Rings

Strictly chrome moly.

- ----------
> From: Pat Brown
> To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: FTE 61-79 - Assembly lube, Was Rings
> Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 9:59 AM
>
> Wow. Never heard that one before. I can see, in a twisted way, that
> installing a piston dry would set the rings quick :-). My concern here
> would be longevity. A dry ring on a dry cylinder is just going to create
> all kinds of shavings and particles, especially a cast ring. It would be
> interesting to hear what kind of rings your nieghbor uses.
>

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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:25:34 -0600
From: "Dave Resch"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Rear main

>From: am14 chrysler.com
>Subject: FTE 61-79 - Rear main
>
>usually just above the mfg's P/N.) I would not try to
>use plastigage in a vehicle I was going to use every
>day. Now one that is going to be mistreated/raced/
>abused is another story.

Yo Rob and Azie:

I hate to disagree w/ Azie on anything, especially FE related, but I
personally would use plastigage on all crank bearings, both rods and mains.
Once when rebuilding an M-block, I got a set of bearings that were all
marked as the correct size (under/over), but one of the main sets did not
produce the correct clearance. Every engine rebuilding book I've read
recommends checking clearances w/ plastigage for this very reason.

As for micing the bearings, the procedure (as I understand it) is to
assemble both halves of a bearing in the seats and then assemble the cap
and torque it in place so that the bearing is in its operating position.
You can then use an inside(?) micrometer to measure the bearing inside
diameter. The advantage of this method over plastigage is that you can
rotate the micrometer to detect out-of-round conditions. Frankly, I think
this would be rare on an engine that wasn't horribly abused.

Dave R. (M-block devotee)


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:40:16 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Assembly lube, Was Rings

Subject: FTE 61-79 - Assembly lube, Was Rings
Date sent: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:59:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Pat Brown

> I've heard lots of people recommend this, I've never tried it. I've always
> felt STP was just too sticky to use on bearings. Same with white (lithium)
> grease. It seems white grease dries out and turns into paste, although it
> can take a long time for this to happen.

There is a cam lube which many cam mfgs pack in their kits to break in the
cam which is nothing more than a high pressure lube with very strong film
strength to protect the cam lobes during the first few revolutions and
assembly processes etc.. The text book I used in my class suggested 90 wt
gear oil as a good substitute which is what I used. Once the engine is
running, the oil will wash it out but it will then have the oil under pressure to
maintain the oil film. 140 wt may be an even better choice if you have some
lying around (clean, very clean of course). I don't see a problem with STP
either since it does essentially the same thing but I wouldn't use it anywhere
else.

Bearings don't have this requirement but do need some prelube to keep them
from galling during assy and start up so some oil needs to be applied to the
crank and the engine should be prelubed via the pump, by hand before start
up as well.

Rings need lubrication AFAIK for long life and proper break in but in a
racing engine life isn't important so dry may be OK. All the discussion I've
read suggest to soak the piston/rod assy in a can of light engine oil (like 10
wt) to thoroughly saturate every cranny in the wrist pin and rings before
installing them. The slight amount of oil which will remain on the walls and in
the top compression ring is insignificant to the combustion process and will
not produce significant carbon build up on start up AFAIK so is not a
concern.

Remember when the engine first fires the cylinders and pistons are cold so
the carbon produced by combustion will go out the exhaust without
attaching to the metal in the combustion chambers and the rich mixture you
will have in a cold engine will tend to wash the cylinder walls as well.


A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:42:38 -0500
From: "Dennis Witthuhn"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Trans Fluid question

you should be able to mix without a problem however if it was me i would go
ahead and drain the fluid and replace it with new dextron 3
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bob
To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
Date: Monday, September 21, 1998 7:35 PM
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Trans Fluid question


>Ok gang only one small stupid question
>
> I have a '78 truck with the 400M/C6 combo & have a small question...The
>guy I bought it from doesn't remember what type of transmission fluid he
>used last time he changed it. Does it matter what I use when I change it
>now??? You would think that some one who would have the forethought to
>install a transmission pan drain plug would remember what type of fluid he
>used. Can you mix Dexron II or III with other types of ATF fluids?? Or
>are they all the same??
>
>Thanks
>
>
>Bob
>
>52 F1 Flathead mostly broke
>79 F150 Custom Cab
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>

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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:45:09 -0500
From: "Dennis Witthuhn"....


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