61-79-list-digest Wednesday, September 16 1998 Volume 02 : Number 449



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1961-1979 Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

FTE 61-79 - bellhousings
FTE 61-79 - Killeen, Tx
FTE 61-79 - Really bad blow-by in 352
FTE 61-79 - Valve Stem Oil Seals - Questions for the experts
FTE 61-79 - '78 for sale
FTE 61-79 - Valve Stem Oil Seals - Questions for the experts
Re: FTE 61-79 - '78 for sale
Re: FTE 61-79 - Valve Stem Oil Seals - Questions for the experts
FTE 61-79 - HOT running 460
FTE 61-79 - Tools and Equipment for working on a Ford Truck
Re: FTE 61-79 - Tools and Equipment for working on a Ford Truck
Re: FTE 61-79 - HOT running 460
FTE 61-79 - 66 F350 Backfires When Letting Off Accelerator - Fixed
FTE 61-79 - Suggestions On Replacing Rear Main Seal In 352
FTE 61-79 - Vintage hubcaps
FTE 61-79 - 65 Cab question
FTE 61-79 - RE: intake manifold / ridge reaming
FTE 61-79 - RE: Valve Stem Oil Seals - Questions for the experts

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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:12:33 -0400
From: am14 chrysler.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - bellhousings

Mike Masse writes: >>Also, how do you tell the difference between a FE and
335/385 series bellhousing?

The FE's bellhousing bolt pattern is circular. The 335/385 series as well
as the 351W/302 has the two top bolts almost squared across the top. Not
circular at all.

The divorced transfer case was used thru some portion of 1977 on F250/F350
4X4's.(I have 2 '77's and both have divorced transfer cases) I'm not sure
exactly when the married case went into production for the F250/F350 4X4's,
but all '78's I've seen have the married version. Some very late '77's
might have it. Not sure.

Azie
Ardmore, Al.


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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:44:02 -0400
From: am14 chrysler.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Killeen, Tx

I tried to send this direct, but couldn't get it to go thru, so I'm sending
it on the List. Sorry Guys.

>>Colorado Jeff: >> My Son (Tracy Magnusson) is in Killeen, Tx (Ft. Hood)
today. He will be leaving tonight or tomorrow for El Segundo, Ca. He
should be able to be reached at 817-554-2727 (Holiday Inn Express) after
business hours. He would enjoy meeting you, I'm sure. He knows I
participate in the FTE list, so tell him you are a member and that I said
to contact him.

Good luck.

Azie
Ardmore, A.


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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:18:08 -0400
From: pdesanto Cinergy.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Really bad blow-by in 352

Bryan, You've got more than a "Valve seal" problem. Your own Compression
test confirms that you have some kind of valve, piston, or ring damage that
is letting a LOT of cylinder pressure escape to the crankcase. (That much
blow-by suggests Piston or rings) If you could do a " leak down " test this
would be even more apparent. Your best bet would be to at least pull that
head and see what kind of damage you have. No valve seal is gonna help with
a loss of compression. They will only help control oil loss. Sorry for the
bad news....but I hope this helps.
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:21:34 -0500
From: John Strauss
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Valve Stem Oil Seals - Questions for the experts

>Background:
>352 FE. Having some pretty severe blow by (1+ qt / 200 miles) with the
oil >coming out the breather/oil fill cap putting a good layer of oil over
the >driver side of the truck.
>
>Testing:
>Compression test revealed 7 cylinders at 130 to 150 psi. The number 2
cylinder >(passenger side) had only 50 psi. Adding oil to the cylinder and
redoing the >test resulted in new value of only 60 psi. Tried it twice and
got same values >both time.
>
>Diagnosis?? Valve Guide or Stem Seals. Since the seals are easier to
replace >(so I think?), I got a set and went about putting them on.
Following shop >manual (orange book) step by step. Get the spring
compressed and the manual >says "remove the retainer locks" - YEA RIGHT!
How do I GET THE STUPID >RETAINER LOCKS OFF!!! There is no mention of a
special tool. Another book >that I consult says something about using
magnetic tweezers, which I will >happily buy and try, but I don't think its
going to help.
>
First of all, I do not agree with your diagnosis. Valve stem seals are NOT
going to cause a loss of compression and they have nothing whatever to do
with blowby. Blowby is caused by worn rings letting the compression go
past them which pressurizes the crankcase more than the PCV system can
handle. Poor valve seal (which, again, the seals do not address) lets
compression go into the intake or exhaust system. You *might* have a VERY
bad valve guide which is causing your valve to not seal but it is more
likely you have a burned valve, if it is the valves at all. I suspect
broken rings on that cylinder at the very least.

With regards to getting the retainer locks off, how did you support the
valve when compressing the spring? The retainers are a two-piece affair
which will split and come off the valve once the spring is compressed and
assuming the valve doesn't go down into the cylinder.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news...

_
_| ~~. John Strauss
\, *_} jstrauss inetport.com
\( Texas Fight!

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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:00:51 -0400
From: am14 chrysler.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - '78 for sale

There is a '78 F150 2X4 stepside for sale on my way to work. If anyone is
interested, I'll try to get more information, but here is what I have:

'78 F150 Stepside
302 Engine
C6 Transmission (I looked under it)
A/C
Pwr brakes/steering
Late Ford truck chrome wheels (don't know the year, but they are nice
wheels)
Burnt Orange in color (not one of my favorites, but a fairly good job)
Looked straight and clean.
There is a slight bit of rust along the tailgate and the front end of the
bed
There is slight rust along the bottom of the drivers door (not very old
rust, so I think it could be cleaned up quite easily)
Oily as the dickens underneath, but absolutely no rust in floor of cab or
bed from underneath
Carlot owner said he bought it in a sale. Originally a Birmingham truck.
I did not start it, nor drive it.
Located about 10 miles North of Huntsville, Al. on West side of hwy 53.

Pricey $5500.00 (Asking price) don't have any idea how negotiable that
is.

Azie
Ardmore, Al.


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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:33:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: bkirking bcm.tmc.edu
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Valve Stem Oil Seals - Questions for the experts

pdesanto Cinergy.com, John Strauss, and ther other FTE members:
You guys may be, and probably are, correct about the valve stem seal not being the main contributor to the
blow by. I am just following the guide in my DIY auto repair book and is suggests the valve stem seals as a
culprit along with valve guides and rings. As adding oil to the cylinder for the compression test did not help,
and the valve stems are much easier to fix than the valve guides, I thought I would give the stems a shot. At
worst, I'm out $10 bucks for the seals and can replace them that much faster next time.

I am unfamiliar with the "leak down test", can some one elaborate for me what this is?

As far as holding the valves in place, I am trying Steve's rope trick, but if it looks like I need to take the
heads off, then so be it...
Bryan Kirking
66 Step Side
352 4 speed
Houston, Texas


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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:34:01 -0500
From: "Dennis Witthuhn"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '78 for sale

hey good to see someone close to me(winchester,tn) is also on this list.
just for info's sake i have a 79 f-150 xlt supercab for sale and i have a 68
f 100 i am fixing up thanks holler at me sometime
- -----Original Message-----
From: am14 chrysler.com
To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
Date: Tuesday, September 15, 1998 10:15 AM
Subject: FTE 61-79 - '78 for sale


>There is a '78 F150 2X4 stepside for sale on my way to work. If anyone is
>interested, I'll try to get more information, but here is what I have:
>
>'78 F150 Stepside
>302 Engine
>C6 Transmission (I looked under it)
>A/C
>Pwr brakes/steering
>Late Ford truck chrome wheels (don't know the year, but they are nice
>wheels)
>Burnt Orange in color (not one of my favorites, but a fairly good job)
>Looked straight and clean.
>There is a slight bit of rust along the tailgate and the front end of the
>bed
>There is slight rust along the bottom of the drivers door (not very old
>rust, so I think it could be cleaned up quite easily)
>Oily as the dickens underneath, but absolutely no rust in floor of cab or
>bed from underneath
>Carlot owner said he bought it in a sale. Originally a Birmingham truck.
>I did not start it, nor drive it.
>Located about 10 miles North of Huntsville, Al. on West side of hwy 53.
>
>Pricey $5500.00 (Asking price) don't have any idea how negotiable that
>is.
>
>Azie
>Ardmore, Al.
>
>
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>
>

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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:14:12 -0700
From: sdelanty sonic.net
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Valve Stem Oil Seals - Questions for the experts

> You guys may be, and probably are, correct about the valve stem seal not
being the >main contributor to the blow by.

Yeah, I agree with these guys. The cylinder with low compression has more
wrong with it than just valve stem seals. Bad valves/valve seats or bad
rings. You gonna have to pull the heads at least to fix it...
The leakdown test will tell...

>I am unfamiliar with the "leak down test", can some one elaborate for me what
> this is?

The leak down test is easy if You have an air compressor and a homemade tool.
The tool is simple.. Take an old sparkplug and knock the ceramic insulator
out of it. (don't trash the threads) Stick an air fitting in the hole in
the back of the plug and braze or solder it in place.
The test goes like this: Screw Your tool into the spark plug hole of the
cylinder to be tested. Roll the engine over until the cylinder to be tested
is at TDC on the compression stroke. Put air pressure in the cylinder thru
the tool and pressurize the cylinder, and listen to where the air leaks out.
If you hear air leaking out the tail pipe, You've got bed exhaust valves.
If You hear it leaking out thr carburetor... bad intake valves.
Pull the oil filler cap off and listen in the cranckase. Hissing air here
indicates bad rings. Easy, no?
WARNING! You must locate TDC within a couple degrees when doing this, or the
engine will quickly roll over a 1/2 turn or so when You put air pressure
in the cylinder!
KEEP YOUR HANDS AND HAIR AWAY FROM THE FAN , BELTS, AND ACCESSORIES WHEN
PERFORMING THIS TEST!
If you have a manual tranny, it helps to put the truck in high gear and set
the parking brake and block the wheels. Then the motor can only spin over
enough to take up the slack in the drivetrain. If You have an auto tranny,
then You just have to make sure you get the piston right at TDC...
Again, keep You body parts away from stuff the fan and accesories at all
times when air pressure is in the cylinder just in case it decides to roll
over without warning.

>As far as holding the valves in place, I am trying Steve's rope trick, but
if it looks like I need to take the
>heads off, then so be it...

A new set of valve stem seals may help it to burn less oil, but it isn't
going to help that weak cylinder any. It sounds like You may need to pull
the heads at least...
Do the pressure check and see what it shows up.


Steve
Homepage: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.sonic.net/~sdelanty

All that I needed to know in life, I learned by
killing smart people and eating their brains.


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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:47:16 -0600
From: "Richard Currit"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - HOT running 460


>2. Are you using a thermostat ? If not get one in there. At that engine
>speed (3200) the water may be going through the radiator TOO fast; >not
>allowing it to cool enough. It needs that resriction to keep the flow at =
the
>proper level.

No offense, but this is a complete and total myth. The thermostat is =
designed to only allow flow after the coolant has reached a certain temp. =
It will not aid in running cooler in any way shape or form. Your engine =
will run the coolest at any RPM without a thermostat. In fact it will run =
so cool that it will reduce your engines efficiency and, if done for too =
long, harm your engine. The logic behind this, slow down the water so it =
can cool, argument reminds me of the time my buddies little sister (we =
were about 6) said she didn't like to ride big horses because it was too =
far to fall. My buddy explained that it was worse to fall off of small =
horses because you didn't have as much time to slow down. He then =
proceeded to demonstrate this phenomenon by dropping a 4 lb. mallet on her =
foot first from an inch and then from 3 feet. Guess which hurt worse? =
So much for his theory. Bottom line, the less restriction on the flow of =
coolant (given that all is working properly), the cooler your engine will =
run. Think about it, if this theory were true, then I should pull the =
thermostat next winter. That way at -20F the coolant would be flowing to =
fast to cool off and I would have better heat and defroster. It just =
doesn't work that way.

High Plains Richard (who has pulled out the thermostat on more than one =
occasion to fix an overheating problem until I could get home and fix it =
right)
'72 F-100=20
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:22:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: bkirking bcm.tmc.edu
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Tools and Equipment for working on a Ford Truck

With the work that I am doing to fix my bad cylinder, there is lots of talk about using compressed air.
Besides holding valves closed while working on them and doing a "leak down test" are there other places
for using compressed air? The reason I'm asking is that I dont have a compressor or tank and was thinking
of buying a small tank (aoubt $30) for use when working on my valves. What else could I use it for? I would
think its too small to do any painting, and a big one with compressor obviously costs much more. I dont
have any air tools and hate to clutter up my garage while emptying my wallet without a good reason and am
not convinced this is a good reason.

Another think I'm thinking about is a small Mapp Torch for cutting and welding ($60). I have no experience
welding but don't mind playing around to learn. While I don't doubt I could use a welder lots and lots, are
these "torches" worth it? Can they really weld or are their uses exagerated by the manufacturer. For a little
more I could get a cheapy arc welder but can those cut too? If things eventually justify moving up to a "real
welder" would the little torch still be useful or should I bit the money and spend money I don't have to get one
now (that I would have to learn to use?)
Bryan Kirking
66 Step Side
352 4 speed
Houston, Texas


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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:48:18 -0500
From: Mike Masse
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Tools and Equipment for working on a Ford Truck

bkirking bcm.tmc.edu wrote:
>
> With the work that I am doing to fix my bad cylinder, there is lots of talk about using compressed air.
> Besides holding valves closed while working on them and doing a "leak down test" are there other places
> for using compressed air?

Air tools!
Air tools!
Air tools!
Air tools!
Once you use them you'll wonder what took you so long to get them.

>The reason I'm asking is that I dont have a compressor or tank and was thinking
> of buying a small tank (aoubt $30) for use when working on my valves. What else could I use it for?

Those tanks are only good for filling tires.


> Another think I'm thinking about is a small Mapp Torch for cutting and welding ($60). I have no experience
> welding but don't mind playing around to learn. While I don't doubt I could use a welder lots and lots, are
> these "torches" worth it? Can they really weld or are their uses exagerated by the manufacturer. For a little
> more I could get a cheapy arc welder but can those cut too? If things eventually justify moving up to a "real
> welder" would the little torch still be useful or should I bit the money and spend money I don't have to get one
> now (that I would have to learn to use?)

I have one of those mapp/o2 torches and it works great for heating stuck
nuts and bolts to loosen them. It also works pretty good for small
braze jobs, but I wouldn't want to weld anything with it. It can also
be used to cut small things like exhaust manifold collector bolts that
have rusted so bad you can't use a socket on them, but you run out of O2
real fast if you're trying to cut anything. $60 sounds a little high
though. They go for around $25-30 around here. The O2 bottles don't
last long at all and they go for about $5-6 each.
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 15:53:28 -0500
From: "Dennis Witthuhn"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - HOT running 460

- -----Original Message-----
From: Richard Currit
To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
Date: Tuesday, September 15, 1998 2:02 PM
Subject: FTE 61-79 - HOT running 460


>
>>2. Are you using a thermostat ? If not get one in there. At that engine
>>speed (3200) the water may be going through the radiator TOO fast; >not
>>allowing it to cool enough. It needs that resriction to keep the flow at
the
>>proper level.
>
>No offense, but this is a complete and total myth. The thermostat is
designed to only allow flow after the coolant has reached a certain temp.
It will not aid in running cooler in any way shape or form. Your engine
will run the coolest at any RPM without a thermostat. In fact it will run
so cool that it will reduce your engines efficiency and, if done for too
long, harm your engine. The logic behind this, slow down the water so it
can cool, argument reminds me of the time my buddies little sister (we were
about 6) said she didn't like to ride big horses because it was too far to
fall. My buddy explained that it was worse to fall off of small horses
because you didn't have as much time to slow down. He then proceeded to
demonstrate this phenomenon by dropping a 4 lb. mallet on her foot first
from an inch and then from 3 feet. Guess which hurt worse? So much for
his theory. Bottom line, the less restriction on the flow of coolant (given
that all is working properly), the cooler your engine will run. Think about
it, if this theory were true, then I should pull the thermostat next winter.
That way at -20F the coolant would be flowing to fast to cool off and I
would have better heat and defroster. It just doesn't work that way.
i think i'll put my 2 cents worth in . actually removing the thermostat will
cause a problem. what happens is the coolant flows to fast to transfer very
much of the heat to the metal it is in contact with in the radiator. the
radiator is supposed to transfer the heat from the coolant to the air the
fan pulls through the radiator. when you run without a thermostat you reduce
the effectiveness of the radiator.
>
>High Plains Richard (who has pulled out the thermostat on more than one
occasion to fix an overheating problem until I could get home and fix it
right)
>'72 F-100
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>

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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:09:05 -0400
From: Bill Templeton
Subject: FTE 61-79 - 66 F350 Backfires When Letting Off Accelerator - Fixed

The backfiring when letting off accelerator on my 1966, F350, 352 has
stopped after I replaced the manifold to heat riser gasket. Thanks to all
that responded.

I found the gasket surface on the manifold to be pitted and dressed it as
best one could in the limited space. Also, the exhaust studs and nuts were
not the best of shape. Wanting to replace those nuts, I did find that a
standard 7/16"x14 nut would not go on the stud. In checking further, I
found that the thread was slightly off 14 TPI. Suspect that someone did
some forcing in the past. However, the nuts did tighten quite well. A dab
of removable Locktite was added for good measure. Next time she comes
apart, I have a hunch that it will be necessary to heat the manifold to
remove and replace the studs.
Bill Templeton
temple carol.net
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:09:28 -0400
From: Bill Templeton
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Suggestions On Replacing Rear Main Seal In 352

My 1966 F350, 352 is leaking at the rear main oil seal. Can the seal be
replaced without removing the transmission, clutch, and flywheel? The are
two types of seals listed, molded and another type. Which type of seal is
recommended?


Bill Templeton
temple carol.net
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:05:32 -0400
From: "Paul Rider"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Vintage hubcaps

This is older than even '61, but I am trying to identify some Ford hubcaps I
picked up a few years ago behind the barn at my grandfather's farm. I
believe there are 30's - early 40's vintage. You can see photos at
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.mindspring.com/~afchap/HubCaps.htm

Paul in Huber Heights, Ohio
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.mindspring.com/~afchap


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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 23:50:45 -0400
From: "Brad Jones"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - 65 Cab question

I recently bought a 65 F truck.
The cab bottom is in really bad shape (does thick carpet qualify as a
floor?)
Can someone please tell me what year Cabs I can search for?
Some people are telling me that I can only use Late 64, 65 and 66.
Others say anything from 61 to 66 will work (fenders and emblems may be
different)
I live in NJ near Philadelphia and would welcome any referrals to good junk
yards in this region.
Any replys are appreciated.
Also I heard that you can get stepside beds from a guy in Norwood NC.
I tried to call but got no answer. Does anyone know what they cost?
Thanks ... bjones snip.net
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:10:34 -0600
From: Drew Beatty
Subject: FTE 61-79 - RE: intake manifold / ridge reaming

Jamey.

If you push the pistons out of the top with a ridge on the cylinder it
tends to smash/deform the piston ring lands (i.e. the rings get caught on
the ridge and mash the piston grooves). As you are boring it, you will be
using new pistons, so I guess you could go for it. But, you can also pull
the crank and pull the pistons out of the bottom too. If the ridge is big
you may have a tough time pulling them out of the top.

Later,

Drew Beatty
dcbeatty rmi.net


>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:29:08 -0600
>From: Jamey Moss
>Subject: FTE 61-79 - intake manifold / ridge reaming



>BTW, do I really need to remove the ridge on the piston bores if I don't
plan
>on re-using the pistons and will have it bored .030" anyway? Will the
pistons
>have trouble coming out if I don't, or will I cause more problems for
myself?
>I don't want to skip any steps and end up with a mediocre to poor engine,
but
>I don't want to waste the effort or risk reaming too far if I don't need
to do it.


>Thanks again,

>Jamey Moss
>ra4001 email.sps.mot.com

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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:37:06 -0600
From: Drew Beatty
Subject: FTE 61-79 - RE: Valve Stem Oil Seals - Questions for the experts

Bryan, I am no expert, but I think you might have a burnt valve with one
cylinder reading that low. Also, that much blow by generally means really
bad rings, perhaps even a broken ring. Believe me, I had the same mess in
my truck.

If you can pressurize the bad cylinder with air at TDC (you are
pressurizing the cylinder with compressed air while you take the springs
off, aren't you? You definitely don't want the valve to fall down in the
cylinder), listen at the exhaust pipe for hissing. Also, pop the oil filler
cap and listen there. This will tell you for sure where all your
compression is going.


But, back to the keepers--they are a b!%#h. Spray some WD-40 type stuff on
them and hit down on one side of the little bowl/saucer-looking thing with
a 3/8" drive extension. They will pop loose. Beware of flying keepers!!
They are small to begin with, and even smaller when they fly across the
garage and your eyes are squinting with anger. I stuck a magnet on top of
the valve stem and they kinda got stuck to that instead of flying away. I
did each valve one at a time. Also, make sure you have rags stuffed into
any engine hole they might want to go down into.


I have never heard of or seen a difference between intake/exhaust seals. I
wouldn't worry about it IMHO.

Good luck. I hope this repair helps your problem.

Drew Beatty
dcbeatty rmi.net


>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 08:09:24 -0500 (CDT)
>From: bkirking bcm.tmc.edu
>Subject: FTE 61-79 - Valve Stem Oil Seals - Questions for the experts

>Background:
> 352 FE. Having some pretty severe blow by (1+ qt / 200 miles) with the
oil coming out the breather/oil fill
>cap putting a good layer of oil over the driver side of the truck.

>Testing:
>Compression test revealed 7 cylinders at 130 to 150 psi. The number 2
cylinder (passenger side) had only
>50 psi. Adding oil to the cylinder and redoing the test resulted in new
value of only 60 psi. Tried it twice
>and got same values both time.

>Diagnosis?? Valve Guide or Stem Seals. Since the seals are easier to
replace (so I think?), I got a set
>and went about putting them on. Following shop manual (orange book) step
by step. Get the spring
>compressed and the manual says "remove the retainer locks" - YEA RIGHT!
How do I GET THE STUPID
>RETAINER LOCKS OFF!!! There is no mention of a special tool. Another
book that I consult says
>something about using magnetic tweezers, which I will happily buy and try,....


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