61-79-list-digest Thursday, May 14 1998 Volume 02 : Number 273



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1961-1979 Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

FTE 61-79 - KABOOM
Re: FTE 61-79 - engine buying ??'s
Re: FTE 61-79 - targets and rebuilds
Re: FTE 61-79 - steve
FTE 61-79 - Neoprene seal for Rope
Re: FTE 61-79 - f-150 weight
Re: FTE 61-79 - engine buying ??'s
Re: FTE 61-79 - Shock Bushings - A Shocking Revelation
Re: FTE 61-79 - engine buying ??'s
FTE 61-79 - Performer Problem?
Re: FTE 61-79 - engine buying ??'s
FTE 61-79 - Re: Balanced and Blueprinted
Re: FTE 61-79 - Balanced and Blueprinted
Re: FTE 61-79 - engine buying ??'s
Re: FTE 61-79 - engine buying ??'s
Re: FTE 61-79 - Performer Problem?

=======================================================================

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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:01:23 -0400
From: pickup65 juno.com (Jon E Purut)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - KABOOM

SNIP
This is the fail safe mechanism to prevent 20/20 from
featuring articles about runaway Ford trucks (ala certain incendiariey
ch**s ;0) ).
SNIP

Ford was also attacked for the incendiariey characteristic of their
trucks. I am going from memory so the details are a little sketchy. When
I was but a young pup my parents watched 60 Minutes religiously. I think
it was the late 60s or early 70s 60 Minutes did a show on the dangers of
cab mounted gas tanks. I remember seeing the controlled recreations of an
accident in slow motion video. They also just used a ramp to roll the
truck on its side at speed. The claim they were making was that the
location of the fill tube was such that when the truck slid on the
drivers side the gas cap would come off and all that gas would come
rushing out. Since metal and asphalt create sparks what you got was
"KABOOM." They had the usual interview with so called experts and denies
from Ford and GM (Chubby trucks had cab mounted tanks too.) I do not
remember what the outcome of the show was but I am sure it was not
favorable to Ford.

Was I affected? No, I am driving a 65 with a cab mounted tank.

P.S. Regretfully I will not be able to make Pigeon Forge this year. I am
going to miss meeting you guys. Things came up.


Jon E. Purut
Pickup65 juno.com
JCPurut worldnet.att.net
Visit my site http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://home.att.net/~JCPurut

1964 F500
1965 F100 SWB Daily Driver
1965 F100
1977 F150
1970 Mustang Fastback


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 98 7:52:12 -0400
From: "SGT WILLIAM A WHITED"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - engine buying ??'s

What is the real difference between a 360 and 390? I'm new to engine
rebuilding, I've done some minor tinkering. I was told I have a 390 in my
truck from the guy I bought it off of and by the vin# it's supposed to be a
360. I'm leaving to go to Cuba tomorrow for a year and I'm going to
rebuild it when I get back. And if I can make some small changes to make
her a 390 then I'm all over it. I'll still be on the list and for all the
Devil Dogs "You can't handle the truth." Tony

74 RANGER SUPER CAB 390 I HOPE
- -------------
Original Text
From "Deacon" , on 5/14/98 1:35 AM:
To: SMTP3 SMTP3 MCB LEJEUNE[]

From: CLARE WATERMAN
>I am not a total goof, do all my own maintenance and repair, am a
>good mechanical thinker and have read alot about engine design and
>building in the past year.

Well Doc, thank God I'm a total goof or I'd feel like you were moving in
on my turf. :)

>I have been itching to try my hands at a first time attempt at home
engine
>rebuild.

You have all the qualifications to be a wrench. If the reason is "want"
you have all you need.

>I found a guy that has two 390's for sale-- one for $50 that he
>pulled out of a truck because he got a newer 460 and another that he
>pulled out because oilpan gasket and rear seal were shot (for $200).
in
>the mean time he got his hands on a second 460. he
>pulled the heads off the $50 one to begin to rebuild it and never got
back
>to it. he replaced the oil pan gasket and rod and main bearings on the
>$200 one.

Here's how I see the options. $50 engine is OK because you want to
do a rebuild. I would buy that he started the rebuild and getting a 460
put it on the side lines. The $200 engine is still in a price range for
an FE390. $250 you have both. You could disassemble both engines and
send both blocks and cranks to the machine shop and have the work done
to the best one. Same with the heads. You can have one engine for a
practice build then the real deal on the money motor. In the end you can
sell the 360 and the low buck 390 to get some money back from this deal.
If you only want one I would go for the $50 engine. As far as what
to look for, lives a gamble Doc. If it is a 390 and the crank and rods
are good, you can put them in your 360 and make it a 390. It's hard to
go wrong with a $200 engine and damn near impossible to go wrong with a
$50 engine.
As far as a budget goes, between your 360 and what ever you buy, you
could spend a couple hundred for paint and gaskets, a couple thousand to
go the route or anything in between, it's up to you. What ever way you
decide to go, let us now how we can help.

I've read your post and I can tell you Doc, you know what your
doing. It's a first but your not going into this deaf, dumb and blind.
If anything is wrong with the engine, it would have happened to any one
of us. The work you do now will be enough knowledge to see anything
obviously wrong. I hope this is the answer to your question. We couldn't
tell you anything at this point that you don't already know. So roll
them dice and lets get this ball rolling!

Later!

Deacon
deconblu gte.net
=============================
Nuke the unborn baby whales.
=============================
Deacon's
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://home1.gte.net/deconblu/



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:29:59 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - targets and rebuilds

> From: "Deacon"
> Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - targets and rebuilds
> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:02:12 -0700

> not cheap doing it yourself so to dive in on a rebuild when all that
> was needed was a tune-up can end in a box of parts that may never go
> back together. There is a big difference between rebuilding an
> engine and overhauling an engine. I would recommend a person doing
> an overhaul for the first time or two before going for a rebuild.
> But that's my opinion, I could be wrong!

This is exactly my point, as you say. While a PHD personality may be
able to make it happen from a book with no previous experience, most
of us won't catch enough of the important details and "remember" them
when really needed to get it right the first time IMHO so beginning
with a valve job is the least traumatic way to find out what you're
made of.......:-) Now you discover it really needs more work, the
heads are already done and you're only out the work of installing
them and a few gaskets so you can build on previous work done with
very little loss and you've gained some valuable insight.

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!

- -- Gary --
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:41:11 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - steve

> From: "Deacon"
> Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - steve
> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:49:16 -0700

> >Aren't you a little old for breastfeedin' ;-)
>
> There's an age limit? God, Steve's younger than me. Gary, is it true
> there's an age limit?

Depends on whether you want milk or not. I gave up milk 20 years ago
when my daughter and I came home from the hospital together (you can
guess what I was in for) :-) I never gave up pretending though. I
can pretend till I'm 100 :-)


78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!

- -- Gary --
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:42:12 -0400
From: am14 chrysler.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Neoprene seal for Rope

Someone wrote (and I already forgot who): >>Can the rope seal be
replaced with a neoprene (or whatever is used >> these days) without
any other changes? Rob '71 F100, 360 4Spd

YES!! YES!! Yes!! Your local parts guru should ask you, "Neoprene or
Rope", when he looks it up in his book. No other change is necessary.
I've done it several times in FE's.

Azie
Ardmore, Al.
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:51:50 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - f-150 weight

> From: "Dale and Donna Carmine"
> Subject: FTE 61-79 - f-150 weight
> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:05:12 -0500

> >What is the weight (unloaded) of a 1978 F-150 XLT With a 351 M and
> >a C-6?
>
> My '79, f-150, 351M, C6, long bed, standard cab weighs right at
> 4,000 lbs with a driver.

My 78, full bed, 2wd with 460 and C-6 and plywood bed floor and some
(HA!) rust weighs 2.26 tons according to the local gravel pit scales
with a few handfulls of pea stone in the cracks , a driver that
weighs 204# and a shovel lying in the bed.

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!

- -- Gary --
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 06:11:16 -0700
From: "Deacon"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - engine buying ??'s

From: Tony AKA SGT WILLIAM A WHITED
> What is the real difference between a 360 and 390?

The only difference is stroke. A 360 is 3.5" and a 390 is 3.78". You can
check this using a wire in a sparkplug hole. Start at TDC insert the
wire then go to BDC and see how deep the wire goes. You can check out
tons of engine information at http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.wrljet.com/engines/

>I'm leaving to go to Cuba tomorrow for a year

Stu wants some cigars. I'm sure he will let you know, over and over and
over again.

>Devil Dogs "You can't handle the truth."

I'm betting this is a Marine thing. Am I right? I'll also put 5 on
Stoney being a Devil Dog. :)

Deacon
deconblu gte.net
=============================
Nuke the unborn baby whales.
=============================
Deacon's
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://home1.gte.net/deconblu/



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:32:47 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Shock Bushings - A Shocking Revelation

> From: BDIJXS
> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:35:22 EDT
> Subject: FTE 61-79 - Shock Bushings - A Shocking Revelation

> I was visiting a local leaf spring fabricator today to have some new
> springs made. I had brought along a set of new urethane spring
> bushing for him to use, and he said they don't use those anymore
> because they've had too many of them crack all apart in real cold
> weather.....has anyone else heard of this problem with all the
> different types of urethane bushings and pads that are made? Just
> curious....

My spring guy said they didn't work as well either so all he puts in
are the OEM style rubber bushings. Some have said they ride harsher,
never heard the cracking thing? Seems like if that were the case the
track bar and "C" bushings would take as much of a beating as the
spring bushings so would be showing some signs of deterioration but I
don't see any in my old ones. Course they didn't have a lot of miles
on them but lots of weather for sure, maybe 10 years, 5 years in the
back yard in a pile of parts.

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!

- -- Gary --
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:41:11 -0600 (CST)
From: Stu Varner
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - engine buying ??'s

>
>>I'm leaving to go to Cuba tomorrow for a year
>
>Stu wants some cigars. I'm sure he will let you know, over and over and
>over again.
>


I only asked him once Deacon, I know they are contraban!!
But I sure would like one!!!!!! Hand Rolled on the thighs of.......stop it!!!
STOP IT!!!!!


Deacon, The checks in the mail for asking the Sgt. again for me, thanks!!
I owe you one. :)_ That's me puffin on a stogie!

Stu
Nuke GM!

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:46:18 EDT
From: BDIJXS
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Performer Problem?

Hi Steve,

Enjoyed your post on putting together your 390....

You mentioned you didn't like your Edelbrock manifold.....can you explain a
little bit more????

Colorado Jeff
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:12:02 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - engine buying ??'s

> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:55:10 -0400 (EDT)
> From: CLARE WATERMAN
> Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - engine buying ??'s

> my original question was : what should i look for in purchasing a
> used engine??
>
> the reply was:
> >
> > Give us some back ground so we know how to direct the thread for
> > you? Are you mechanically knowledgeable yourself?
>
> I am not a total goof, do all my own maintenance and repair, am a

I have a friend who is a double PHD, math and computer science and he
IS a total goof with such things. His wife had to put a lamp
together for him but he can research anything you want......:-) He
wrote the first watts line data base for AT&T in ansi "C". He was
thrilled when I taught him how to cook a chicken "pot roast" type
meal in the oven so he didn't have to eat McDonalds every day while
his wife was attempting to sell their house in NJ and he was fending
for himself here in MI. He accidentally locked the self clean handle
when trying this at home by himself and had to call the gas company
to come out and turn it off before he burned the apartments down. I
guess we all have our strong suits :-) (he did eventually achieve
success with the chicken though and thanked me profusely :-)) The
guy was very good at what he knew, just not too mechanically inclined
:-)

> I found a guy that has
> two 390's for sale-- one for $50 that he pulled out of a truck
> because he got a newer 460 and another that he pulled out because
> oilpan gasket and rear seal were shot (for $200). in the mean time
> he got his hands on a second 460. he pulled the heads off the $50
> one to begin to rebuild it and never got back to it.

Depending on how long it's been open and where it was stored it may
be Ok yet. As Deacon said if you buy both you have $250 invested and
lots of very cheap spare parts. That's how I'd go with it I think.
BTW, I'd never trust someone else's claim to have put in new bearings
and expect it to be right. In other words the new bearings would not
affect my estimate of the engine's worth because I would assume I
will have to replace them anyway. That doesn't mean you can't get
lucky, just don't count on it :-)

> hundred to $200 or so a month to play with, being realistic. I'd
> rather not put more that $800- or so into it. Ive got some decent
> semi-performance bolt-ons on the 360 (intake, carb, fuel pump, coil,
> wires) that i would swap over.

Since you can swap many of the parts and they presumably are in good
shape you may be able to do a nice rebuild on it for that amount.
Remember that old cams aren't worth keeping and lifters and cams MUST
be changed as a set, never mix old with new here so a new cam and
lifters should be part of your equation.

> tHE MAin point of the project is a learning experience that may give
> me a bigger stronger more efficient engine in my truck if all goes
> well.

Archive Steve's post on what he did with his engine as a referance
guide. He's a very knowledgeable FE guy and can help you with any
questions you may have as you go.

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!

- -- Gary --
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 07:26:22 -0700
From: sdelanty sonic.net
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re: Balanced and Blueprinted

>Hey Everybody,
>I'm just curious, I read Steve's post about wanting to have an
>engine "balanced and blueprinted." What exactly do you mean by this? My
>experience as a shadetree mechanic has been well, I got to watch Dad and
>get tools or a beer for him.

Well, balancing is when You have to hold Your Dad up after too many beers,
and blueprinting is... oh, never mind.

Actually, balancing is just that... all the major parts that go round and
round or up and down (crank, flywheel, rods, pistons, etc.) all get
balanced so the motor spins up vibration free. Good balance makes for a
nice smooth vibration free motor and for a high RPM motor good balance is
critical to keep things from self destructing.

Blueprinting is a matter of making all the motor dimensions and geometries
just perfect. Making sure that the cam bearing and main bearing bores in
the block are perfectly in line, making sure the distances from the
crank centerline to the tops of the block (deck height) are exactly the same
and that the decks are truly parallel with the crank.
Checking and adjusting all the combustion chamber volumes to be exactly alike..
Making sure the valve train geometries are perfect, the list goes on and on...
Blueprinting is making sure that each and every part is not just within
"factory specs", but is at it's *ideal* dimension.
Good blueprinting pays off in reducted vibration, reduced friction, a good
long lasting engine, and increased HP.
A thorough job blueprint is also *very* time consuming, and You definately
need an experianced, trustworthy machinist on Your side...


Steve

Homepage: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.sonic.net/~sdelanty/

"When you stop learning, stop listening, stop looking
and asking questions, always new questions,
then it is time to die." -- Lillian Smith

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:37:30 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Balanced and Blueprinted

> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 01:31:58 -0500 (CDT)
> From: "P.J. Warren"
> Subject: FTE 61-79 - Balanced and Blueprinted

> I'm just curious, I read Steve's post about wanting to have an
> engine "balanced and blueprinted." What exactly do you mean by
> this? My experience as a shadetree mechanic has been well, I got to
> watch Dad and get tools or a beer for him.

All mechanical parts have tolerances but are designed to work
optimally at a specific dimension which is usually called the "Mean"
or median dimension. Some of course are plus something and minus
nothing or visa versa. The point is that there is a size the print
calls out as "ideal" which is what you shoot for when you "blue
Print" an engine.

In the factory they are allowed to run to either end of the spec and
stack tolerances in less than ideal ways so the finished product can
be less than ideal. When you blue print it you correct all these
things.

Balancing involves making the cylinder rotating and reciprocating
parts all the same for each cylinder and then attempting to get the
assembled weight into a range that works with the crank and power
pulses to reduce vibration. They have formulas which take a
percentage of the bottom end and of the top end to achieve this.

Going to the max you actually make up weights which represent the
value produced by this formula and based on the parts you actually
have on hand and drill or grind material off the counter weights or
flywheels to balance it on a balancing machine. Most shops can't
dynamically balance it but if we assume the crank and flywheel are
already in ballance then all we really need to do is equalize the
assemblies (as above) and it will theoretically stay in balance so
most of the time this is all they mean when they say balance.


78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!

- -- Gary --
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Date: Thu, 14 May 98 10:46:15 -0400
From: "SGT WILLIAM A WHITED"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - engine buying ??'s

Thanks for the info. I'd love to get the cigars but aboard GTMO
(Guantanamo Bay Cuba) they don't sell them you have to go to a country like
Canada or Dom Rep. But if I can get them I'll let ya'll know. >Devil Dogs
"You can't handle the truth." Is the scene near the end of "A Few Good Men"
we Jack goes a little crazy. Semper Fi
- -------------
Original Text
From "Deacon" , on 5/14/98 9:11 AM:
To: SMTP3 SMTP3 MCB LEJEUNE[]

From: Tony AKA SGT WILLIAM A WHITED
> What is the real difference between a 360 and 390?

The only difference is stroke. A 360 is 3.5" and a 390 is 3.78". You can
check this using a wire in a sparkplug hole. Start at TDC insert the
wire then go to BDC and see how deep the wire goes. You can check out
tons of engine information at http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.wrljet.com/engines/

>I'm leaving to go to Cuba tomorrow for a year

Stu wants some cigars. I'm sure he will let you know, over and over and
over again.

>Devil Dogs "You can't handle the truth."

I'm betting this is a Marine thing. Am I right? I'll also put 5 on
Stoney being a Devil Dog. :)

Deacon
deconblu gte.net
=============================
Nuke the unborn baby whales.
=============================
Deacon's
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://home1.gte.net/deconblu/



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 98 10:51:32 -0400
From: "SGT WILLIAM A WHITED"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - engine buying ??'s

Stu, a little know fact is you are allowed to bring them into the
country. But there is I believe a dollar amount on how much or maybe it's
how many I can't remember.
- -------------
Original Text
From "Stu Varner" , on 5/14/98 10:41 AM:
To: SMTP3 SMTP3 MCB LEJEUNE[]

>
>>I'm leaving to go to Cuba tomorrow for a year
>
>Stu wants some cigars. I'm sure he will let you know, over and over and
>over again.
>


I only asked him once Deacon, I know they are contraban!!
But I sure would like one!!!!!! Hand Rolled on the thighs of.......stop
it!!!
STOP IT!!!!!


Deacon, The checks in the mail for asking the Sgt. again for me, thanks!!
I owe you one. :)_ That's me puffin on a stogie!

Stu
Nuke GM!

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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:02:35 -0700
From: sdelanty sonic.net
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Performer Problem?

At 09:46 AM 5/14/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Hi Steve,
>
>Enjoyed your post on putting together your 390....
>
>You mentioned you didn't like your Edelbrock manifold.....can you explain a
>little bit more????

Accckk! That's a long unhappy story, and my rantings about it can probably
be found in last summers archives.

To make it fairly short, the casting sucked. Some of the ports were slightly
shifted, and didn't line up with the heads as well as could be expected.
A bunch of work with the die grinder fixed that.
Some of the pushrod holes were shifted and a couple pushrods rubbed the
side of the holes. A bunch of work with the die grinder fixed that too, but
opened up a pinhole from a pushrod bore to one of the intake runners. The
wall was still plenty thick, but there was this big casting bubble right there.
So I had to TIG weld up the hole...
The distributor hole was machined much larger than the stock one, and was
somewhat off center. I expected that too leak a bunch, but surprisingly
it doesn't seem to.
The carb flange is too narrow to seal against any carb (including the e-brock)
without using a $25 adapter/spacer...
All that for mediocre performance. Top end is not as good as with a stock
D4TE manifold, altho midrange is a little better and low RPM throttle response
is a little more crisp.
About the only really good thing about the e-brock manifold is that it
weighs 52 lbs less than stock.

....


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