61-79-list-digest Sunday, May 10 1998 Volume 02 : Number 261



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1961-1979 Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

FTE 61-79 - Pigeon Forge
FTE 61-79 - Axle Spacers
FTE 61-79 - Re: twin piston calipers
FTE 61-79 - Re: engine
FTE 61-79 - Re: Sunday Breakfast
RE: FTE 61-79 - After Market Sway bars
RE: FTE 61-79 - Traction Bars
Re: FTE 61-79 - Pigeon Forge
FTE 61-79 - Rope seal
FTE 61-79 - A Soapbox Rant on Back Pressure.
FTE 61-79 - New Lincoln SUV
FTE 61-79 - Steering Wheel Hub
FTE 61-79 - U Joints
FTE 61-79 - FE vs. 385 ???
RE: FTE 61-79 - engine
RE: FTE 61-79 - '69 F-250
FTE 61-79 - trans numbers
Re: FTE 61-79 - trans numbers
FTE 61-79 - Permission to use your pictures.
FTE 61-79 - Badges for the show
Re: FTE 61-79 - FE vs. 385 ???
Re: FTE 61-79 - FE vs. 385 ???
Re: FTE 61-79 - My front leaf springs

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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 06:22:07 -0400
From: "Melayne Arnold"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Pigeon Forge

Ken,
Sunday morning is fine by me.We're going Thurs. evening and staying till
Sun. Any time others want is fine with us. Are you going to have the booth?
I'd like to be able to meet everyone before the end of the show. (SWMBO sez
that I'd feel pretty dumb getiing into a tug of war over a piece of chrome
on Saturday and then find out it was with another list member on Sunday).

Stoney

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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 09:42:11 EDT
From: BDIJXS
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Axle Spacers

I just disassembled a Dana 60-2 (semi-floating) with a Power-Lok unit. I'm
trying to figure out exactly what the little spacers between the axles do.
Each one is about an inch long with one end that has a flange that butts up to
end of each axle. The Power-Lok unit fits right into the full-floating (3/4
ton) axle that I am upgrading to. Does anyone know if these spacers are
required for the full-floating Dana 60 Power-Lok application? If so, any idea
on what kind of clearances there should be?

Thanks!

Colorado Jeff



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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 10:08:59 EDT
From: BDIJXS
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re: twin piston calipers

Hey Ox,

Just went through the dual piston deal you are going through. I found it was
cheaper to get the rebuilt caliper unit than to buy the piston kits and do it
myself! The rebuilt units were $45 plus a $5 core....I think they call them an
"unloaded" unit, meaning no brake shoes included....

Good luck,

Colorado Jeff
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 10:09:24 EDT
From: BDIJXS
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re: engine

Hey Eric,

If you picked up the entire engine/transmission assembly out of the 77, you
did good. Now, you just need to figure out the difference between the frame
cross members between the two rigs. I don't know about the 4x2's, but it looks
like the crossmember that the transmission bolts to in the 4x4's is
interchangeable between these two years. Sounds like you'll need a new
steering column as well to replace your "three on the tree" setup with the
automatic selector.

Since a lot of the 67's came stock with the FE/Auto setup, you should be able
to pick up a set of the correct motor mounts no problem from the junkyards....

Not much help, but good luck!

Colorado Jeff
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 10:10:19 EDT
From: BDIJXS
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re: Sunday Breakfast

Hi Ken,

Count me in on the Sunday AM deal....

Colorado Jeff
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 10:28:55 -0500
From: "Bear"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - After Market Sway bars

Thank you very much. That was a big help!

E-mail : bear269 sparc.isl.net
Please view my home page at:
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.isl.net/~bear269/home

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-61-79-list ford-trucks.com
[mailto:owner-61-79-list ford-trucks.com]On Behalf Of Gary, 78 BBB
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 1998 11:25 AM
To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - After Market Sway bars


> From: "Bear"
> Subject: FTE 61-79 - After Market Sway bars
> Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 00:06:58 -0500

> I was looking in a catalog and I saw after market sway bars. I was
> wondering: What are they supposed to do, how do they work and are
> they worth the money? I was looking into getting the front and rear
> ones...

Ever see one of them fancy custom cars the LA gang guys build that go
up and down and bounce all over............well sway bars........Ok,
not really, sway bars are actually "Anti-Sway" bars and when one
wheel on an axle (front or rear) moves the anti-sway bar forces the
other side to move too but with some amount of lag built in to the
spring rate of the sway bar. All it is is a torsion bar with arms.
The primary purpose is to keep the body more level in turns.



My bronco has them front and rear and it corners like a Ferrari but
if I ever go to Moab, I'll carry my tools with me and take them off
before I go on the trails :-)

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!

- -- Gary --
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:06:09 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - Traction Bars

FWIW, take a good estimate of what the engine makes at the crank, and
reduce that by 10% to 20%. this is what is assumed in vehicle calculations
when the true efficiency of the drivetrain is not known.

an automatic will decrease shock load, but increase the torque. a manual
is opposite of course. (assuming equal gear ratios, which of course may
not be the case. this is because a torque converter increases torque at
high relative engine to wheel speed difference.)

so if your 428 makes 410 #ft torque, then at the rear wheel, about 320-370
#ft of torque may be available if the final drive ratio is 1:1 with the
engine.

so, if the final drive ratio is 2.75 first gear, and 2:1 transfer case
(assuming 4x4 low range) and 4.10 rear gears, the final ratio is 22.55.
so, torque would be 80% * 22.55 * 410(esitmated engine torque) = about
7,400 #ft at the axles.

now, another factor applies, which is quite high for trucks in general.
the driveline inertia. this reduces it quite a bit. how much inertia?
hell, i don't know! also tire dia reduce's it.

here's the actual technical equation:

Ta=Fx*r+Lw*Aw=(Td-(Id*Ad)Nf

where:

Ta=torque on the axles
Fx=tractive force at the ground (lbs)
r=wheel radius
Iw=inertia of wheels and axles
Aw=rotation acceleration of the wheels
Id=inertia of driveshaft
Ad=rotational acceleration of driveshaft
Nf=final drive ratio

Fx=is an even more complex eqation with more "unknowns".
i think you can assume about 60-80% of the rear axle wheight for this
number. it changes depending upon weight transfer, center of gravity,
inertia of sprung, unsprung parts, tire traction, and just about everything
else!

anyway, on my pull truck i have 1"od x 1/8"wall (if i remember correctly)
round DOM tubing. i welded in nuts at each end one with a LH thread, one
RH thread.

used 3/4 thread heim jounts and connected one end to axle bottom and one
end to frame. the tube is mounted so that from side of vehicle the tubes
and drive shaft are in almost the same exact plane. similiar to rancho's
set, but better IMHO.

sleddog

- ----------
From: BDIJXS[SMTP:BDIJXS aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 1998 7:58 PM
To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Traction Bars

Can anyone give me good upper estimate on how much torque would be measured
at
the rear wheels for a good, strong-running 428? I just need an upper
ballpark
figure here....I think that with that number, I can calculate about how
much
force will be transmitted to a set of traction bars (I'm trying to
eliminate
wrap-up), and therefore decide on what diameter they should be and what the
brackets I'm going to make need to be able to handle.....

Thanks!

Colorado Jeff
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:40:31 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Pigeon Forge

At 06:22 AM 5/10/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Ken,
> Sunday morning is fine by me.We're going Thurs. evening and staying till
>Sun. Any time others want is fine with us. Are you going to have the booth?

We'll a booth. I'm printing out the banner for it right now. Directions to
the pavilion for the Sunday breakfast will be at the booth.


>I'd like to be able to meet everyone before the end of the show. (SWMBO sez
>that I'd feel pretty dumb getiing into a tug of war over a piece of chrome
>on Saturday and then find out it was with another list member on Sunday).
>
>Stoney

We're planning on meeting Saturday in front of the convention center
around 10. Hope to see you there. Tug of war? Heck, when it comes
to getting a new grill for my 67 I have no shame!

Ken Payne
CoAdmin, Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 08:49:48 -0800
From: "Erik Marquez"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Rope seal

>> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 20:52:30 -0400
>> From: "THE PAVIES'"
>> Subject: FTE 61-79 - 360 Seal Replacement
>
>> look-see at whats really in there. But it's hard to believe Ford
>> used rope as an oil seal. Sounds like something you'd use as an
>> emergency temporary fix but not as something permanent. Maybe I can
>> wind some string around and stick gum on it.
SNIP
>The rope seals were very durable but very difficult to replace and
>not too forgiving of worn bearings but were used by many manufactures
>back then. I haven't seen one in so long I can't remember if there
>is any rubber parts to them but there was no rod so thay can't be
>driven out like the rubber ones, they have to be pulled out or the
>engine has to be pulled and worked on on a stand.
>
>78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
>78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
>78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!
>
>- -- Gary --
Gary is spot on, those rope seals do/did work well when installed correctly,
as with the rubber type, when replacing the seal (rubber grab with a pliers,
rope insert a small sheet metal screw into the end and pull that) have a
helper S L O W L Y turn the motor over in the same direction you are tring
to pull the seal out. This way the crank will help "push" the seal out. BTW
FELPRO still markets both types of seals, some one must still buy them.
Erik Marquez
78 Bronco
bronco78 mosquitonet.com
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.mosquitonet.com/~bronco78


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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 11:37:25 -0700
From: "Chris Samuel"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - A Soapbox Rant on Back Pressure.

On Soap Box.

Mike Schwall wrote:
"I used to have more torque, but I put on full length 1 1/2" primary headers
and 2 1/4" dual exhaust with Dynomax Super Turbos.
Back pressure has dropped and low end torque has suffered."

No engine (gas) ever built by Ford for Automotive use ever needed "Back
Pressure" for power production.

In fact as an all but absolute statement:
Every (all makes) engine will make more torque as the "Back Pressure" is
reduced.

You can not just change single system components as you will upset the
total system and by doing so you can reduce the power, or unintentionally
shift the RPM where the power is produced.

Your 306 incher is not known for torque but it will wind up quite
nicely. The modifications that you list are designed to make more power at a
higher RPM, I would expect that you moved the Torque peak up 600 to 800 RPM.

If you set up the Cam, Ign. and Carb. with care (and the cam is not too
radical) you should be able to at least generate the same amount of Torque
at the stock Torque peak, and more as the RPM's rise on up to the New peak.

Ideally changing the exhaust system works like this, you improve it until
you are making max power from your combination of parts. Then you adjust it
to shift the power curve up or down the RPM range, if you adjust for bottom
end as a rule you will loose on the top, and versa-visegrip.

Really what happens is we change the system by adding headers, duals,
free flowing Cat's., new muffler bearings, or what ever and then blame the
system for our choices. Then we never take the time and $$$ to find out what
else we should have done to the system to get it right; and, what those
changes did to the other systems, and, what changes need to be made there.
This approach is what started the Back Pressure myth and the only thing that
perpetuates it.

Back Pressure reduces air flow. Air flow is power. More air= more
power/Torque.
Stocker to Racer; Physics is Physics.

Off my Soap Box

Mike.
All of this is said not to in any way offend you, or any one else for that
mater.
Back Pressure is just a pet peeve of mine.

Chris
79 Bronco





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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 15:21:28 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: FTE 61-79 - New Lincoln SUV

WWW.FordWorldNews.Com has a feature on the new Lincoln
Blackwood SUV.

Ken Payne
CoAdmin, Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com

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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 14:20:19 -0500
From: ballingr ldd.net (William L Ballinger)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Steering Wheel Hub

I went to a truck junkyard and pulled the steering wheel from a '65 2 1/2 t
dump truck and pulled the column tube, horn/turn signal switch and
everything for $20. Pulled mine apart and found that my horn part of the
horn/turn signal switch had been purposely broken off and discarded, all
that remained was the turn signal part. The spring that provides the preload
for the inner race had also been discarded, allowing the race to pop out of
the bearing causing the slack in the hub. I used the spring that I got off
the dump truck, and put the race back in place an viola!, good as new. I now
have a replacement race and bearing for future use. The switch I bought is
apparently a replacement one because it looks new, and the t*ts that c*ncel
the signal are in new shape. The only fly in the ointment is that something
else is missing. I don't have anything on the wheel that goes down into the
hub to tickle the c*ncellers. I'm going to go back and look at the dump
truck wheel to see what it uses, because they worked perfect on it. The
wheel is different from mine though, I hope they used the same thing to do
the job and I hope it's detatchable.

Any one with an experience on this?
Come on over to my Back Porch
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.ldd.net/scribers/ballingr
Ballinger
ballingr ldd.net

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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 15:49:18 EDT
From: BDIJXS
Subject: FTE 61-79 - U Joints

Does anyone know if the 67-72 F-100's and F-250's used the same U-joints? At
least, are the bearing diameters the same?

Colorado Jeff
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 19:09:02 -0400
From: "Melayne Arnold"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - FE vs. 385 ???

Just got a '69 F-250 with a 360 (I think) and C-6. I haven't had an FE since
a '68 Galaxie with a 390. Might go to 460 since I'm a lot more familiar with
the 385 series. Then again it might be fun to work with this engine. I love
460's but I sure liked that 390 a lot. Can't understand arguments over which
is better, FE or 385, I love them BOTH! Big block power and they're both
ford blue.
How about some of you FE lovers giving me some ideas on what I could do
here. I like low end torque, and any big block will run a lot faster than I
drive.

Stoney

'83 F-250 2wd, 460, c-6 (Willie)
'79 F-250 2wd, 429 PI, NP 435 (Suzie)
'76 F-100 2wd, 302, 3 on the tree (ol' Blue)
'69 F-250 2wd, 360, c-6 (was Double Ugly, now Nellie)
'73 Mustang, 351-C, looking for a toploader 4-speed
'84 Gran Prix, 305, auto (swmbo)

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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:27:46 -0400
From: "Ken Schneider"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - engine

Judging form a couple of junk trucks I've stripped, you will have to
re-drill the frame for the motor mounts, and you may have to move your
crossmember as well. You may need to switch columns as well. Someone want
to varify this for me?

Ken (Goin to Pigeon Forge!)

68 F-100 Ranger, 360, C6

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-61-79-list ford-trucks.com
> [mailto:owner-61-79-list ford-trucks.com]On Behalf Of Eric Washburn
> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 1998 9:11 PM
> To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: FTE 61-79 - engine
>
>
> I have a 1967 F-100 Custom Cab with a long bed and a 240 mated with a Ford
> 3-speed transmission. I was wondering if anyone knew what I need to do to
> put a 1977 390 with a C6 that was in a F250 Ranger that also had
> a long bed,
> in my truck.
>
>
> = Ford Truck Enthusiasts ==============================================
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>

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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:39:13 -0400
From: "Ken Schneider"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - '69 F-250

F25 F-250 2WD
Y 360 V8
L Assembeled in Michigan
7500 lb Gross Vehicle Weight

The D19536 in my book registers as an April of 1968 Truck. So you may have
a 69 titled as a 69. The 69's I believe were introduced in September of 68
if my memory serves me correctly.

Ken

68 F-100 Ranger 360, C6(titled as a 69)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-61-79-list ford-trucks.com
> [mailto:owner-61-79-list ford-trucks.com]On Behalf Of Melayne Arnold
> Sent: Friday, May 08, 1998 6:54 PM
> To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: FTE 61-79 - '69 F-250
>
>
> Could someone please decode this VIN for me. We picked up this truck today
> and have no idea what we have.
>
> F25YLVD19536
>
> Thanks,
> Stoney
>
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>

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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 21:56:14 EDT
From: GMPACHECO
Subject: FTE 61-79 - trans numbers

can some tell me something about this tranny ? Its suppose to be a
toploader.... Here's all the numbers...

on the casing ORION 2630366
3D7DR78040 AA2803885-C

on the main casing stamped in..
RUGCLBK9 D8UREA0090

ALSO C LL 01 2

OR DOES SOMEONE KNOW WHAT SITE WILL BREAK IT DOWN FOR ME??

MIKE IN SEATTLE
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:00:30 EDT
From: GMPACHECO
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - trans numbers

OPPS That should have read

2603606
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:13:03 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Permission to use your pictures.

Tonight Peggy and I were scanning in several pictures mailed to
us for the pictorial and t-shirt. We have an idea for the booth
at the Pigeon Forge show.

We want to display these trucks on a bulletin board to let people
know what type of trucks our members drive. We're also going to
print out several from the pictorial. If you have any objection
to your truck being displayed let us know and we won't show it.
Email us privately about this (kpayne mindspring.com).

Pictures will be displayed at the show and not given out to
anyone. Also, if your truck from the pictorial doesn't show up,
its probably because the image didn't print out too well, not
because we didn't like it. Ink jet printers can be picky about
what prints out good.

Ken Payne
CoAdmin, Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com

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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:18:31 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Badges for the show

jniolon uss.com has sent a design to be used as badges
at the Pigeon Forge show to identify yourself as a
Ford Truck Enthusiast member:

http://www.ford-trucks.com/badge.gif

Feel free to download and print it. Thanks to
John Niolon for this design!

Ken Payne
CoAdmin, Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com

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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:36:42 EDT
From: JJJJJGRANT
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - FE vs. 385 ???

punch the 390 .060 over install 428 cj heads,and a good aluminum intake with
a decent cam.or a favorite is to put a 428 engine in it ( fairly expensive,but
a lot of torque) 427 is nice also but very expensive unless you just get
lucky.
my personal opinion,460 makes more power with fewer mods and parts are more
plentiful.
i have a toploader out of a 69 mach 1 for sale.
jeff grant

78 f150 4x4
68 m715 military jeep truck
69 mach1 mustang
84 gt mustang
and oops
92 gmc suburban 2500 w/454, belongs to the wife,has a ford racing tag on the
front.
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:57:07 EDT
From: GMPACHECO
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - FE vs. 385 ???

whats the price... just want to know if i paid too much for mine..

Mike in Seattle
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:05:24 -0000
From: "Kevin"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - My front leaf springs

I have sent this post twice, it looks like you do not want to give a person
an answer (Ken, Sledddog). Oh-well good by again!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Kevin
To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
Date: Sunday, May 10, 1998 6:17 AM
Subject: FTE 61-79 - My front leaf springs


>My front leaf springs on my 64 Ford have just about seen there last bounce.
>Any advice on what to do? I don't want to go through the trouble of....

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