61-79-list-digest Saturday, May 9 1998 Volume 02 : Number 259



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1961-1979 Trucks and Vans
Visit our web site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/
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In this issue:

FTE 61-79 - Bike Shorts
FTE 61-79 - Tassles
FTE 61-79 - Steering Wheel Hub
FTE 61-79 - Well......It's in the ground! :-)
FTE 61-79 - Susie's Saga
Re: FTE 61-79 - Was Alternato Wiring Problem - Now Fuel Pressur
Re: FTE 61-79 - Towing in gear
Re: FTE 61-79 - Soft brakes
Re: FTE 61-79 - Was Alternato Wiring Problem - Now Fuel Pressur
Re: FTE 61-79 - '69 360 starter/solenoid problem
Re: FTE 61-79 - Was Alternato Wiring Problem - Now Fuel Pressu
Re: FTE 61-79 - Susie's Saga
RE: FTE 61-79 - truck pull classes
Re: FTE 61-79 - After Market Sway bars
Re: FTE 61-79 - 429 Exhaust Crossover/Antifreeze

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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 07:39:59 -0500
From: ballingr ldd.net (William L Ballinger)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Bike Shorts

> In my home state of Tennessee.......ever seen Deliverence? A few miles
> from where parts of it were filmed!! Don't be afraid!! It's OK! In the
> Smokey Mountain Park area. Biggest gathering of F-100's? Maybe, I hear
> there are several of them that show. Take a trip from on the left coast and
> visit us!!

Yeah, but just don't wear bike shorts, especially if you look a little
like Ned Beatty.
- --
Come on over to my Back Porch
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.ldd.net/scribers/ballingr
Ballinger
ballingr ldd.net

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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 08:13:08 -0500
From: ballingr ldd.net (William L Ballinger)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Tassles

> lovers, FE lovers, 385 lovers, small-block lovers, and M-block devotees?
> Flathead lovers could go sans tassle :-).

I agree, you should have to have OHV to get a tassle, but you could get
an honorary one for a 3-pot setup( uncle had one on a '39 Merc, my first
memory of things that go BAAAARRRRUUUMMMPPP).
- --
Come on over to my Back Porch
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.ldd.net/scribers/ballingr
Ballinger
ballingr ldd.net

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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 09:53:56 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Steering Wheel Hub

Forwarded for ballingr ldd.net (William L Ballinger), direct personal
replies to him, public replies to the list:

I need a little help on something. I plan to tear into my steering wheel
hub assembly to replace the bearing and put all of the horn stuff back
in. It looks like it's been stripped in there down to just a turn signal
switch with no c*ncel. I don't know what anything is supposed to look
like in there. I have the large diameter hub like the old trucks had
with the four-spoke 17 1/2 in wheel. My local Ford dealer doesn't have a
listing for the '65 F250 4X4, and can't picture my hub. He says that it
uses the same small hub as the 2 wd, which is obviosly wrong as I've
seen pictures of this year with my hub.

Has anyone been into one? Can you describe the parts involved, in their
assembly order?
Any help would be appreciated.

I have some Snappy shots of my truck on my website, let me know what you
think.
- --
Come on over to my Back Porch
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.ldd.net/scribers/ballingr
Ballinger
ballingr ldd.net


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Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 10:02:07 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Well......It's in the ground! :-)

Well gang (s) my lift is in the ground finally! :-):-):-):-):-) The
backhoe operator almost gave up, kept telling me he didn't think he
could do me any justice but I kept begging him to try something else
and in my own inimatable way making suggestions as to how to position
his tractor and he got it done and done well! :-) I jokingly told
him that if he were a young buck now he'd have a new trick to add to
his already large knowledge base :-)

I AM ONE HAPPY CAMPER!!!

Now I still have to make sure the posts will be absolutely level so I
still have lots of hind sight work to do but it will all be worth it
in the end. I'm taking pictures as I go so you can see how it
progresses and some day I'll get a web site to put them on so you can
look at them among others.

I just have to wonder if a 52 year old man should have to work so
dang hard..............I don't feel too bad considering I hand
shoveled over 2 tons of dirt and stone in the process yesterday (and
didn't get one blister) and have another 2.06 tons on my "!/2" ton
truck waiting for me tonight in the barn.......:-) Those Cooper
tires are holdeing up pretty well :-)

Should have the oil in it and ready for the floor by next weekend.
I'll keep y'all posted :-)

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!

- -- Gary --
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Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 10:30:20 -0400
From: "Melayne Arnold"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Susie's Saga

Thanks for the encouragement, Deacon. Since I started reading this digest
I've found out why dad goes straight to the e-mail everytime he comes in.
I've only been reading it for about three weeks but I already find myself
looking for certain names. Azie; he always seems to have an answer to a Ford
question (seems to be right too). Stu; always helpful and courteous to
everyone. Deacon; living out in left field somewhere, but always a hoot.
Sleddog; real pro on pulling comp trucks. And there are a lot others, it's
funny that in this venue age doesn't matter, people can talk and ask
questions whether their 17 years old (me) or much, much older(60's, 70's?),
but everyone still seems to get along. This is a GREAT site!
Now for Susie. She's a '79 F-250 custom. Plain jane. No a/c, no power in
cab. No radio even. She does have power steering and brakes though. My dad
drove her forever. (The truck is a year older than I am) He has always told
me that she would be my first vehicle because 1) with the NP435 and her
rearends there was no way I could "hot-rod" 2) she is about the biggest
heaviest thing on the road (protection) if I do have an accident, and 3)
with 400,000 miles on her, dad wouldn't be out that much when I tore her up
like all kids do their first vehicle. (I HATE it when he's always right!)
Susie is almost done (I think). I still have to make the fuel line from
the pump to carb and the brackets to hold it. I need to hook up the wiring
to alt, distributer and carb choke. And the only thing I'm not sure of, stab
the distributor. I'm not sure exactly how to do this and get it right. Some
advice maybe? I could ask dad to help me but that turns into a problem.
Don't get me wrong, he's been a great help on this and I love it when he
just comes out, sits in his chair and we talk while I work on it. The
problem is he can't stand to just watch for long, then he's standing over my
shoulder watching, then he has a hand in, and before long I'm just washing
parts and handing him tools just like when I was ten. Bummer.
Don't want to take up too much space at a time, so I'll quit for now.
I could use instruction on getting the distributor in right though.
Thanks.

Bud

P.S. I've found a use for the list I bet Mr. Payne never intended. I know
my dad will read this on the digest, so I can tell him some things without
getting in his face (always a VERY bad idea!) Thanks a million times again
to the Payne's.

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 10:43:08 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Was Alternato Wiring Problem - Now Fuel Pressur

> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 16:42:04 -0500
> From: Mike Schwall
> Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Was Alternato Wiring Problem - Now Fuel

> Thanks Gary for the info. I'm going to borrow an ammeter from my
> Uncle and see how much juice the alternator is putting out. If it's
> not putting out anywhere near the rated 60 amps. I may cut the
> fusable link out and put in a buss fuse rated at 60 amps. That way
> I am still protected in case something goes haywire.

In response to the fuel pump question, I tried lower gears because I
read an article which stated that anything you can do to get the
vacuum up will need less gas but it's not that simple. If you are
only getting 3-4 at 1800 rpm I humbly suggest you have a problem
somewhre else as well unless your cam is pretty outrageous. With
Torque cam I get between 12 and 15 at 1800 in my pu with 460. At
that rpm and load it's very difficult to determine the exact
"equilibrium" vacuum because the slightest change in the throttle
makes a dramatic change in the reading so you have to have a very
steady foot and be on level ground to take comparative readings for
tuning.

For the electrical stuff, remember that a "fixture" or "load" uses X
amount of watts regardless of voltage so when there is a voltage drop
because of internal alternator resistane due to load your "loads" are
drawing more amperage. The proper fix is to make sure the alternator
can sustain 12v at idle with all the loads on. If now you probably
should look into a larger alternator or a "slighly" smaller pulley.

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!

- -- Gary --
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Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 10:58:44 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Towing in gear

> From: sdelanty sonic.net
> Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 08:57:00 -0700
> Subject: FTE 61-79 - Towing in gear

> Here's a "towing in gear" story... It's not Ford truck related, but
> it's probably a good "don't let this happen to You" story.

I have one from last night :-) Couldn't find the keys to the cougar
and it was in the way of the back hoe so I hooked my little chain to
the frame of the cougar and just snagged the underside of the front
bumper of the bronco, locked in 4 lo and idled backward across my
driveway till it was all the way across and out of the way. Never
stepped on the gas at all except to just get it moving and then
realized it didn't need any more than idle so idled the rest of the
way with the rear end of the cougar locked up. It left two deep
furrows in the drive way which John quickly flattened out for me with
his bucket.

Now, what's all this stuff about lower gearing?

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!

- -- Gary --
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Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 11:36:34 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Soft brakes

> From: "Rick Williams"
> Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Soft brakes
> Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 04:43:29 -0700

> Wrongo Garry, you need another master cylinder. From my past
> experiences, most parts houses will only sell you the master
> cylinder along with the brake booster, so you may want to return it.

NAPA sells them either way but you get a better deal if you think you
need both to buy them as a unit and I agree this sounds like master
cylinder and my only be dirt under the rubber. Some times just
pumping the brakes vigorously will dislodge the dirt and it will
start working again but MC's are cheap so I'd just replace it.

When you do go to the archives and look up the bleeding
process..................there's tons of info there :-)

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!

- -- Gary --
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:25:23 -0500
From: Mike Schwall
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Was Alternato Wiring Problem - Now Fuel Pressur

>In response to the fuel pump question, I tried lower gears because I
>read an article which stated that anything you can do to get the
>vacuum up will need less gas but it's not that simple. If you are
>only getting 3-4 at 1800 rpm I humbly suggest you have a problem
>somewhre else as well unless your cam is pretty outrageous.

Little clarification - that is under load. I was saying 3-4 inches on the
highway in OD trying to push a 4000 lb brick on wheels 70 Mph. I get 17"
of Hg at idle.

>Torque cam I get between 12 and 15 at 1800 in my pu with 460. At
>that rpm and load it's very difficult to determine the exact
>"equilibrium" vacuum because the slightest change in the throttle
>makes a dramatic change in the reading so you have to have a very
>steady foot and be on level ground to take comparative readings for
>tuning.

You have a much better power to weight ratio than I do. That is why you
get the higher vacuum levels. Try climbing a steep hill turning only 1800
RPMs and watch your vacuum. (in a tall gear)

Higher the engine load (more throttle) the less manifold vacuum yoiu have.
We both agree on that. The cam is an RV type 204/216 I/E at .050". (cam
specs are on my Ford web site) The sweet spot, torque wise, is in the 2000
RPM range. Currently with the rear end gears I have now, the engine
doesn't turn fast enough in OD to produce enough power to keep the truck up
to speed. More load on the engine, the more gas you give it - that is why
I get 3-4" of vacuum. Engine is undersized for the application, but I do
get 14-15 Mpg on the highway in third gear - since the load on the engine
is less and the vacuum is higher in third (turning 2800 at 70)


>For the electrical stuff, remember that a "fixture" or "load" uses X
>amount of watts regardless of voltage so when there is a voltage drop
>because of internal alternator resistane due to load your "loads" are
>drawing more amperage. The proper fix is to make sure the alternator
>can sustain 12v at idle with all the loads on. If now you probably
>should look into a larger alternator or a "slighly" smaller pulley.
>-- Gary --

Will wait till I get the ammeter readings to see if I'm maxing out the
alternator. I'm pretty sure I am. Amp has a 15 amp fuse - so I suspect it
can draw a max of 20 amps, blower motor comes close to 30 amps and the AC
clutch is probably an amp or two. Headlights on high probably draw around
10 amps. And the ignition varies with RPM - say 5 amps average. Adding
those up I see that I am coming close to maxing out the alternator. A
larger output alternator looks like the best solution.

Thanks for the help.

Mike

_____________________________________________

Email: mschwall texas.net or mike fordfan.org
Home Page: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://mschwall.home.texas.net
FORD FAN PAGE: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.fordfan.org

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 13:13:07 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - '69 360 starter/solenoid problem

> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 17:07:37 -0700
> From: tom
> Subject: FTE 61-79 - '69 360 starter/solenoid problem

> a bad solenoid (its a separate, firewall mounted unit). Changed it -
> same thing happened. Next thought was the ignition switch. pulled
> it, isolated it and used remote switch clipped right on the
> solenoid. Same result - keeps cranking until battery terminal is
> pulled. Now I'm at a loss for what to do. Any sugestions would be
> apprieciated!!

You may have the wires to the start relay reversed or there is a back
feed (short) from the ignition in the start circuit which is
energizing the relay through the 12v ignition wire. This could be
the ignition switch itself or if you have dura spark ignition it
could be the module.

If you have a volt meter put it on the two small lugs (to ground, one
at a time) while starting and after releasing the key see if you
still have voltage and how much. If you have 12v with key off the
ignition switch may be the problem but if it's somewhat less it may
be the module (if you have one)

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!

- -- Gary --
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 15:33:59 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Was Alternato Wiring Problem - Now Fuel Pressu

> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:25:23 -0500
> From: Mike Schwall
> Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Was Alternato Wiring Problem - Now Fuel

> Little clarification - that is under load. I was saying 3-4 inches
> on the highway in OD trying to push a 4000 lb brick on wheels 70
> Mph. I get 17" of Hg at idle.

> engine, the more gas you give it - that is why I get 3-4" of vacuum.
> Engine is undersized for the application, but I do get 14-15 Mpg on
> the highway in third gear - since the load on the engine is less and
> the vacuum is higher in third (turning 2800 at 70)

What I'm trying to say is that you can use the vacuum gauge to help
you find the sweet spot and improve the economy but you have to make
all your tests on level ground with a very steady throttle to get an
accurate value to compare to. On a hill all you are showing is how
far you have the pedal down which is what you see on level ground too
but on a hill you have no way to reference anything for comparison.
(well I suppose you could if the hill were long enough and
consistant)

The guys at Reider Racing tried to tell me that I should gear my
truck to run 2400-2500 rpm at 60 for best economy but the fact that
ford uses 1800 rpm almost across the board and manages to get 30 mpg
in the tbirds for instance tells me that it's all in the cam. You
need to gear it to the cam. A torque cam should handle lower rpm at
criuse and get better mileage, all other things being equal but there
are torque cams and then there are..............

I've found that it really does depend on the application and your
driving style. A 302 in a 5k# brick needs more gear no matter what
cam you put in it but a 460 for instance can tolerate much taller
gearing in the same vehicle and get better economy than it would
running it at the rpm considered to be it's sweet spot. I'm
reasonably sure the torque peak on my 460 is well above 1800 but
that's about where it runs at 60 and does better than it did with
lower gearing.

Just for comparison the 460 at 60 with 2.75 gears and 235 tires shows
about 12" with very steady throttle on level ground. The bronco gets
closer to 16" under the same conditions with 3.50 gears and 33's with
the 351M. Both of these trucks are very close in rpm at 60 set up as
they are but the 460 is always ready to respond instantly and the 351
is a bit reticent sometimes. They both get about 12 mpg most of the
time.

I don't want to tell anyone how to set up their truck but if I were
doing it myself I'd take a look at all the parts and see what I could
change to make the engine more responsive at lower rpm and then look
at the gearing if it still wasn't enough but my bronco is a daily
driver and I don't tow with it much so economy is sort of at the top
of my list. The pu has plenty of oooommph with the tall gearing so I
don't need to fix it but the bronco is in the back of my head all the
time, should I or shouldn't I try something taller, lower.....:-)

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!

- -- Gary --
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 15:42:28 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Susie's Saga

> From: "Melayne Arnold"
> Subject: FTE 61-79 - Susie's Saga
> Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 10:30:20 -0400

> venue age doesn't matter, people can talk and ask questions whether
> their 17 years old (me) or much, much older(60's, 70's?), but

Hey, watch it! :-) We're not that old yet, well maybe Azie......:-)

> Some advice maybe? I could ask dad to help me
> but that turns into a problem. Don't get me wrong, he's been a great
> help on this and I love it when he just comes out, sits in his chair
> and we talk while I work on it. The problem is he can't stand to
> just watch for long, then he's standing over my shoulder watching,
> then he has a hand in, and before long I'm just washing parts and
> handing him tools just like when I was ten. Bummer.

That's the neat thing about being the dad, we always get the good
stuff and our kids have to respect our age :-) I remember my dad got
me started by sanding my little red wagon and bicycles etc. and he
did all the fun stuf like the paint spraying cuz I wasn't quite ready
for it yet...........Now I get to do that to my kids, i've earned it
:-)

Really though, we do try to give them some responsibility but gosh
it's hard to just sit there while they scr..........I mean learn :-)


78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!

- -- Gary --
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Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 15:47:54 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - truck pull classes

whew! the tempers have gotton hot and the words nasty at many rules
committee meetings. some of the people, like buck motorsports, want to
eliminate everything but stock trucks - yea right! who wants to pay to see
that? but, they say stock is NO modifications, while others say stock can
have different tires, intake, carb, headers, ignition - all th "common"
upgrades. well, everytime there is a bone stock pull only one truck wins -
the dodge v-10 (no ford v10's have played yet tho)

no one wants to pit their 305 chubby against 488 cubes of muscle, so
entries drop, and then they realize its the loud high HP trucks that they
need to bring in. because remember, we do it for fun, but the fairgrounds
do it to make money! and that's the bottom line.

sleddog

- ----------
From: JJJJJGRANT[SMTP:JJJJJGRANT aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 1998 12:56 AM
To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - truck pull classes

i thought that the southern pullers were the onlyn ones that had alot of
controversy
about the different classes and rules,ours have changed a dozen times in
the
last few years.




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Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 16:24:31 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - After Market Sway bars

> From: "Bear"
> Subject: FTE 61-79 - After Market Sway bars
> Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 00:06:58 -0500

> I was looking in a catalog and I saw after market sway bars. I was
> wondering: What are they supposed to do, how do they work and are
> they worth the money? I was looking into getting the front and rear
> ones...

Ever see one of them fancy custom cars the LA gang guys build that go
up and down and bounce all over............well sway bars........Ok,
not really, sway bars are actually "Anti-Sway" bars and when one
wheel on an axle (front or rear) moves the anti-sway bar forces the
other side to move too but with some amount of lag built in to the
spring rate of the sway bar. All it is is a torsion bar with arms.
The primary purpose is to keep the body more level in turns.

If you run mostly on the highway you want them and if you drive like
a maniac on the highway then you REALLY want them but if you drive
mostly off road and want lots of articulation then they will get in
your way.

You can achieve anti "Roll" in two ways......Ok, three, put the
anti-sway bars on, beef up the suspension or lower the CG. The sway
bars are more popular than the other two choices because at low bump
situations like pavement they don't hurt the ride too much but as
things get bumpier they stiffen the ride similarly to what you'd
expect with stiffer springs. Lowering the CG of course requires a
total makeover or lowering of the suspension to lower the body ride
height etc..

My bronco has them front and rear and it corners like a Ferrari but
if I ever go to Moab, I'll carry my tools with me and take them off
before I go on the trails :-)

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!

- -- Gary --
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Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 16:29:11 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - 429 Exhaust Crossover/Antifreeze

> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 16:45:14 -0700
> From: Vogt Family
> Subject: FTE 61-79 - 429 Exhaust Crossover/Antifreeze

> carbon. As I was chipping away at the deposits in the intake with a
> screwdriver I suddenly hit a pocket of water. It was rusty but also
> looked slightly green like it might have been antifreeze. Any ideas
> where this might have come from?

The exhaust cross over is right in the middle but the 385 series is a
wet manifold design and has at least two, but I think 4 water ports
in it that tend to get sludged up as well. Are you sure you were
working on the exhaust crossover?

If so then there are only a few explainations, neither very fun:....


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