Re: FTE 61-79 - Going South

61-79-list-digest Saturday, August 22 1998 Volume 02 : Number 416

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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1961-1979 Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

Re: FTE 61-79 - Going South
RE: FTE 61-79 - Mobil 1 - Long WAS: oil
Re: FTE 61-79 - Timing problem??
FTE 61-79 - Engine swap, FTDV2 #415
RE: FTE 61-79 - Mobil 1 - Long WAS: oil
Re: FTE 61-79 - Timing problem??
Re: FTE 61-79 - Re: JP-5
Re: FTE 61-79 - odds and ends - more odds than ends
Re: FTE 61-79 - Hardened valve seats
FTE 61-79 - What is it?
Re: FTE 61-79 - modular engines
RE: FTE 61-79 - Re: Auto Tranny's (was Auto vs. Manual)
FTE 61-79 - 65 F-100, Fuel Tank Location
Re: FTE 61-79 - Slightly off topic, but not much
RE: FTE 61-79 - RE:Mystery Solved-Disaster avoided Now Vacuum tuning.
FTE 61-79 - Re: synthetic/hard seats
FTE 61-79 - New Heads
Re: FTE 61-79 - 460
Re: FTE 61-79 - Gary's 460 views :-(
FTE 61-79 - Going south
Re: FTE 61-79 - radiator
FTE 61-79 - Re: - Going South
FTE 61-79 - Re: modular engines

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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:19:52 -0700
From: Jeffrey.Carver

Aerojet.com (CARVER, JEFFREY D)
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Going South

Everybody knows that when traveling north, one has to go uphill,
it's UP on a map, right? and south is DOWN.
Therefore going south is the same as going downhill,
and things going downhill are getting worse, as in
hitting rock bottom as the result of going too far downhill.

Ouch, this much thinking hurts.

Jeff
'64 F100 CrewCab
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
Gary writes: >>They still last quite a while but at some point they dry
out and than go south unless you can replenish the grease.

Anyone on this list tell me why we refer to anything that is going bad
is
referred to as going South????????? I'm from the deep South, and I do
it
also. Just never knew why.
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:49:32 -0500
From: Mike Schwall
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - Mobil 1 - Long WAS: oil

At 06:14 AM 8/21/98 , you wrote:
>From: Sleddog
>Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - Mobil 1 - Long WAS: oil
>Date sent: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:01:43 -0400
>
>> don't know where you live, but here where i live mobil 1 and amsoil is
>> basically the same price. but i get amsoil at dealer price.
>
>The info package said I could become a dealer but I never looked
>into it. Can you briefly list the minimum requirments? and costs?
>-- Gary --

A pulse and a use for the oil. I have a package here too and was contacted
by a local amsoil dealer not too long ago. I never did become a dealer
though. Anyone know what base Amsoil uses? They don't say on their web
site or in their catalog. They do list the oil specs (viscosity index,
flash point, etc), but it's not that great. It's typical of synthetic dino
juice. If it's just synthesized dino juice, it's just as good as Mobil 1
(or bad, depends on how you look at it). It's good stuff, don't get me
wrong. It all depends on what the oil is used in.

Mike

_____________________________________________

Email: mschwall

texas.net or mike

hhs.state.ne.us (Chad Dailey)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Engine swap, FTDV2 #415

Gary--

I was told that the 'stands' would stay the same, and I could use '69
302 mounts. Hmmmm. This could complicate matters. Any other
opinions / certainties?

Chad

P.S.: Who are the boys?

>Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:18:09 +0000
>From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
>Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Engine swap
>
>From: cdailey

hhs.state.ne.us (Chad Dailey)
>Subject: FTE 61-79 - Engine swap
>Date sent: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:18:01 GMT
>
>> manifolds (headers would be cool!), or other incidentals that might =
grab
>> me by the 'short and curlies'?
>
>Only thing I can think of off hand is the different way the 6 is=20
>mounted. The boys say an FE engine is a much better swap from=20
>a 240 due to this since they use the same mount points.

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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 17:42:43 -0500
From: Mike Schwall
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - Mobil 1 - Long WAS: oil

At 07:13 AM 8/21/98 , you wrote:
>From: Sleddog
>> i get my cousin to get it for me at cost. he became a dealer and we all
>> take advantage of it - as we all agreed upon. he doesn't sell enough to
>> make much money, and it really is only to get the good price. but there is
>> some cost involved, and of course a minimum sales requirement, that is not
>> hard to meet.
>
>So........if I pay the shipping..............:-) Right now I only
>maintain 2 that can use it but one day I'll build one with good
>seals and then......:-) I actually want to get some ATF for the bird
>and try it but hate to pay $7/qt. and will be changing the oil in the
>two I have it in already but will go to Mobil1 if I can't get the price
>down.
>
>Seriously, can he get it cheaper and would it be worth his while to
>drop ship or re-ship to me? This may be an opportunity for him
>to make a few bucks, lets see......2000 X 2 vehicles per member
>times .00 equals.....:-)
>-- Gary --

To save everybody that cares some time, I've located the technical
information pages for various oil manufactureres for synthetic 10W-30
weight oil.

NEO Synthetic oil ( www.neosyntheticoil.com )
Base: True 100% synthetic diester
Price per quart of 10W-30: $9.90
Technical information page: www.neosyntheticoil.com/10w30.htm - At bottom
of page

Red Line ( www.redlineoil.com )
Base: Polymer (plastic)
Price per quart of 10W-30: $7.99 (average)
Technical information page: No true technical specs (online), but they have
a page about their oil: www.redlineoil.com/engoilti.htm

Torco Racing Lubricants ( www.mpsmall.com/torco/catalog.htm )
Base: Polymer
Price per quart: $9.20 (They don't offer a synthetic 10W-30 - mostly 5W-xx)
Technical information page: www.mpsmall.com/torco/tech1.htm

Mobil 1 ( www.mobil.com )
Base: Synthesized hydrocarbon (synthetic dino juice)
Price per quart: average of $3.99
Technical information page:
www.mobil.com/oneracing/about/products/engineoil/10w_30/index.html

AMSOIL ( www.amsoil.com )
Base: unknown
Price per quart: Depends on source. My March '97 catalog lists $5.50
Technical information page (look for "Typical Technical Properties"):
www.amsoil.com

Things to look at are the viscosity index, kinematic viscosity at 100
degrees C, flash point (and pour point for the northern folks).

Mike

_____________________________________________

Email: mschwall

texas.net or mike

fordfan.org
Home Page: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://mschwall.home.texas.net
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:56:37 -0300
From: "John Miller"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Re: JP-5

JP-5, JP-4 and JP-8 are pretty much general jet, turbo shaft jet and the
like, aviation fuels, the most common in the U.S. being JP 4 and its
beginning to change to JP 8. I say "the like" because several land and
water surface vehicles also use turbo shaft jet engines. I just happen to
be a crew chief on the free worlds largest helicopter, the CH-53E Super
Stallion, We hold, in standard configuration 16,500 #s of the stuff and
when flying we burn it up pretty fast. We are capable of aerial refueling
from KC-130's and also of holding another 10,000 #'s internally in
auxiliary tanks. With fuel samples to be taken every day from a minimum of
four planes each having six tanks to check there is a wealth of cleaning
medium when I need it with out having to use anything intended for it's
original purpose. I should have added to my original post that Kerosene
works well also. :)

John Miller

- ----------
> From: Marv Miller
>
> John Miller wrote:
> >JP5 and a rag and brush works wonders too :)
>
> Just out of curiosity, where you gettin' JP-5? I may have it a bass
> ackwards, but I thought this stuff was for SR-71's only.
> -Marv-

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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:11:07 -0500
From: Mike Schwall
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - odds and ends - more odds than ends

John wrote:
>SNIP>
>A synthetic oil would be any oil that has had its chemical makeup altered
>during the manufacturing process. I guess natural oils would be those that
>have only been refined and had non altering aditives added (like
>detergents). I take synthetic insulin and it works great. I am sure that
>synthetic oils work great. I just don't see the increased cost
>justification. It is also my understanding that once you switch to
>synthetic, you can't switch back due to the effect on the seals. Is this
>true or has this been conquered like radial tire construction? Don't ask
>Why would you want to switch back, someone is always changing their mind or
>changing it for you.
>-John
>jlagrone

ford-trucks.com

Ok, to start things off - American Heritage College Dictionary - meaning of
synthetic: "1. Of or produced by synthesis, 2. Not natural or genuine;
artificial". I hope the insulin is synthetic - I would hate to be a donor
of it. Synthetic insulin is made in a lab from a combination of chemicals
(layman terms). Synthetic motor oil consists of a base with an additive
package (anti foaming agents, detergents, etc.) The base oil used in
synthetic oil is made from a combination of chemicals. Not to flame you or
anything, but if what you say is true, then all regular petroleum motor oil
is synthetic. (untrue) The natural base oil in dino juice is mineral or
paraffin based - all natural nature made goodness - simply refined and
bottled. That base is then doped with all kinds of chemicals and addatives
to improve the oil's lubricant properties, to make multi viscosity oil,
and to keep the molecular structure stable under high heat and stress
conditions. These addatives wear out quickly. Once they wear out, the
only thing left is the base oil. Pretroleum based oils break down easily.
All you are left with is carbon. Cook regular petroleum oil long enough
and it will reduce itself to carbon.

Now synthetics. Anything made by man that is not found in nature is
synthetic. Nylon and plastic are an example. The big picture that people
need to see and comprehend is that not all synthetics are the same. Just
like there is more than one way to kill an animal, there is more than one
way to make a synthetic oil. One way is to copy mother nature. Petroleum
oil has been around for decades and has proved itself as a good lubricant -
the only problem is the oil is weak and breaks down easily. So, why not
make a synthetic version of it? So basically you get a pretoleum
(hydrocarbon) type motor oil made in a beaker. The man made copy of the
natural oil is much stronger and more stable than the natural stuff.
Hence, Mobil 1.

Now for another way to make a synthetic oil. Lets forget about the past.
Lets make a totally new oil from scratch. No copies here - all man made.
Lets make a base oil from a polymer, which is plastic. So we have a "true"
synthetic oil that is plastic based. What is the advantage? Super
stability, high tolerances for heat and stress, and it doesn't wear out.
Yes, it does not wear out. Only reason to change this type of oil is
because you can't filter it well enough. If there was some magical filter
out there that would keep the oil as clean as it was when it came out of
the bottle, it would never have to be changed. All you would have to do is
add the addatives to it at regular intervals (addatives like detergents,
anti foaming agents, dispersants, etc.).

What's the difference? The syntheic copy of mother nature's oil still
breaks down. It lasts much longer than the true natural stuff, but it is a
weak compound (the chemists can help explain this one - weak molecular
bonds?) Polymer based oils will last a long time. The molecular structure
is strong and stable, it doesn't become weak from heat cycles and repeated
stress.

I hope this clears the mental picture up. Any chemists on the list?
Perhaps some scientific explaination of molecular bonds and their
resistance to break would help.

Now as for "is synthetic oil for me or not?". That all depends on how the
engine or equipment is operated. If it is pushed to it's limits,
repeatedly spun up to warp speed, or put under severe loads, then
synthetic may be in the picture. If you drive like a citizen, obey the
speed limit, and don't push the engine to it's limits repeatedly and change
the oil every 3000 miles religiously, then you may only need a good quality
pretoleum based oil.

Regular weekend warriors or stop light drag racers that like to show off
how fast they can get 3-5000 pounds of Ford iron and steel moving like it
was only 100 pounds, then synthetic dino juice would be the choice. If you
drive a race car and are in endurance races which push the engine to it's
limit several hours at a time then the true synthetic polymer based oils
would work best.

As always YMMV, IMHO, AFAIK, etc., etc., etc.

Mike

_____________________________________________

Email: mschwall

texas.net or mike

aol.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - What is it?

Paul(and others associated with this thread),
Your notes on the FE identification are accurate, but I would like to
point out one of the most obvious identification marks on the FT block. They
have a mirror image 105 cast into the block below where the left hand(driver's
side) head would mount onto the block. For simplicity's sake, stick a
machinist's rule(or any other small measuring device that will fit) down an
open spark plug hole and manually turn the engine to determine the stroke.
This should tell whether the engine is a 360 or 390. With over 1/4"
difference, there should be no mistake.
Paul, the only internals that you will need to create a 428 is the
inflated value crank(~$350-500). Most all of the rods for 390, 1966 and up are
roughly the same casting(based on my census of the many FE parts of my
collection), with the only differences between a 428 CJ rod and other non-CJ
rods being the size of the rod bolt(13/32" in the CJ vs. 3/8" in non-CJ) and
the casting #. Interestingly enough, the FT block 390 engine I bought earlier
this year had those rods(correct casting #) minus the bigger bolts, as well
as the FT 390 that my brother converted to a 406 for his 64 Galaxie. And of
course the rotating assembly will have to be balanced with the
flywheel/flexplate and balancer hanging on there(external balance). Pistons
are a no-brainer as they are still readily available from most manufacturers.
A couple of comments for you regular readers. I have been lurking
around this list for several months now and finally decided to come out of the
closet. I like the comeradery exhibited here and the information for a number
of FE related items has been invaluable.
Bill Ballinger may have seen my 64 Galaxie 2-dr hardtop at the street
machine nationals in DuQuoin earlier this year( maroon with a white top and
Torq-thrust rims next to another red with white top 64, my bro's car with the
406 dual quad). Too bad I missed you!

Bill Hays at Fe Sashley

aol.com
1988 Taurus sedan (SWMBO's car)
1985 F-150 ( I know, wrong list...)
1964 Galaxie 500 2-dr hdtp, built 390, toploader, 3.89 gear and 275/60's out
back
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 18:09:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steve & Rockette
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - modular engines

>
>Also, unlike a Honda and like your 351M, the Mod V8 and V10 use a steel
>timing chain. And in most cars with a belt, it needs to be changed at 60
>not 80K.
>
>Later,
>Rob Bryan

Fords 3.2L V6 SHO automatic trans timing belt gets
changed at 100,000 miles, the 5 speed gets changed
at 60,000 miles..... per SWMBO's owners manual......

Steve & Rockette...Lifes a beach
'63 F100 Longbox
'94 Taurus SHO - SWMBO's new car!!
and since most are listing all thier cars:
'72 Capri - Rockette's Toy, aka - SWMBO
'73 Capri - My Toy / Daily Driver
'73 MGB-GT Our Toy
'70 Torino GT My "New" Car

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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:25:24 -0400
From: "Ken Schneider"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - Re: Auto Tranny's (was Auto vs. Manual)

Speaking of Automatic tranny's, what is the shift ranges for the various
motors/tranny's? My 68 360/C6 2WD shifts into 2nd at 40, and 3rd at 70.
Does this sound right?

Ken
68 F100 360/C6/3.25

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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:44:45 -0500
From: Bill Adams
Subject: FTE 61-79 - 65 F-100, Fuel Tank Location

+AL+ wrote:
>Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 05:29:22 +0000
>From: "Allan J. Bremer"
>Subject: FTE 61-79 - 65 F-100, Fuel Tank Location
>
>Hello,
>
>The 65 F-100 with a 352C and a C6 that I just bought has it's fuel
>tank removed and laying in the bed of the truck. It used to be behind
>the seat but it was removed and the hole was body worked over.>
>
>I'm not sure that I like the location of the fuel tank to be in the
>bed. I've had others tell me that usually if the tank is behind the
>seat you can smell gas inside the truck. Is that usually true?
>
>Can a tank be placed under the truck? I think I would like it back
>behind the seat again. Where's the best place?

If you smell gas in the cab, you've got a leak! Fix it.

AS for tank location, I vote for outside the cab. Mine is still inside
but plans are in the works to put it in a toolbox in the bed, Open the
tool box lid and fill er' up.

One of the classic truck magazines did an article a year or so ago on
putting a 85 Isuzu trooper gas tank into a 66 F-100. It's just the right
width to go between the frames. They mounted theirs behind the axle,
just in front of the rear bumper. They mentioned that it had a nice
protective pan that came with it. It wasn't too difficult of a job, but
I do seem to recall that they had to move a cross-member a few inches.
They took a fuel fill door off of some other truck and welded it into
the 66 behind the rear axle.

l8re
Bill Adams
1966 F-100 Custom Cab, 352 V8, PS, AC, Long bed
1961 F-100 Unibody, 223 and a three on the tree!

The WoodButcher's Shop
"http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.geocities.com/heartland/plains/6640"

,.-----__
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_| ~~. /:''/////// `` ::`;/|/
\, *_} /' ( Ford ) :://'`\
\( .' , |||||| `/( e \
-===~__-'\____ ```\_____/~`-._ `.
~~ ~~ `~-'
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:45:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: hurdj

VAX.CS.HSCSYR.EDU
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Slightly off topic, but not much

On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Gary, 78 BBB wrote:

> Gang(s), I asked about the switch that resets the engine service
> light, where is it and how do you turn it off for a 96 ranger. Can
> someone point me in the right direction so I can make some
> points with my neighbor?
>
Gary, you need to pull the codes from the computer in that Ranger.
The code/s will tell you what is causing the MIL (Malfunction
Indicator Light) to come on. Fix the cause/s, and the light should go
out.

Jim in Central NY
'79 F-150 (302!)
'92 Topaz (3.0l)
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 23:29:30 -0400
From: "Ken Schneider"
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - RE:Mystery Solved-Disaster avoided Now Vacuum tuning.

I thought my spec book said 17 degrees for dwell on a 360?

Ken

>FE spec is 26-31 degrees. 240/300 sixes spec is 35-40 degrees.
>
> Chris Thompson

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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 23:25:54 EDT
From: NUTCH11

aol.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re: synthetic/hard seats

couple of comments
1 . has anyone heard of synthetic oil becomming what lokks like hard jello
when water gets mixed with it.
i talked to someone who was running synthetic and had a headgasket leak some
water into the oil and he said you couldn't get the mixture out of the pan
except by scraping. i know this might be an unusual occurence , but the guy
lost all the bearings crank etc because the oil wouldn't lube the motor after
the water got into the pan. comments????
2. i feel that unless you are going to take an additive along with you . you
should
have steel inserts put in your heads for valve seats. its good insurance when
you have the engine down.

thanks

john
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 23:53:15 -0500
From: ballingr

ldd.net (William L Ballinger)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - New Heads

I took my '65 352-390 heads to the machine shop yesterday to have them
made new for my truck. The guides on the ones that are on there are
really loose, bad enough that you can move the valves back and forth
quite noticably. The springs I'm sure are shot too, so I bet that the
valves are all beat up too. I suspect that a lot of my blow-by I'm
seeing from the valve cover may be exhaust blowing out of the guide.
There are stripes of burned oil on the inside of the valve covers too,
and it seems a lot hotter than it ought to be around there. No smoke out
of the exhaust pipe. I believe that I can't help but see an improvement
with new heads, and maybe even run a little quieter since the valves
will be seating instead of flopping around. The vacuam guage ticking up
and down 1/2 lb hg tells me that the valves aren't 100%, thus I risk the
wrath of SWMBO to get a head job.

I decided to rebuild the old style heads mostly because they were off
and I think they will perform with my headers, cam and intake the best
of any other head.

They are getting new hardened exhaust seats and valves, new guides and
seals, new locks and keepers, and a deck clean up. It should run about
$300 at the shop. I had to build a head set from seperate components.
(all that was available is the cheap standard set as a kit) I have all
Fel-Pro Permatorque components except for the header gaskets( any
recommendations for the early style heads with headers?) I got the
intake set, umbrella seals and a pair of head gaskets for $60. I don't
need valve cover (just replaced them) or regular exhaust gaskets anyway.

I'm waiting like a kid waiting for Christmas.....:-)
- --
Come on over to my Back Porch
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.ldd.net/scribers/ballingr
Ballinger
ballingr

ldd.net
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Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 00:54:04 EDT
From: JJJJJGRANT

aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - 460

i ported a set of the 68 heads once, and found the casting to be thin, (i put
a nice hole in it) i was told afterwards that the c9 and c8 heads were pretty
thin in the exhaust port area, the dove heads are great for a heavy truck,they
make alot of torque, the d2oe head is a good choice for a little higher rpm
horsepower, and the dooe head is the prefered stock head for drag racing,
truck pulling etc, where high rpm power is desired,but in my opinion they aint
werf a flip for a stock dailey driven truck. been there done that(unless you
have 500 cubic inches)

only my opinion
jeff grant
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Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 01:00:13 EDT
From: JJJJJGRANT

aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Gary's 460 views :-(

any dummy can build a chevy,it takes an intelligent person to build a ford.

chevrolet = cracked heads ,every valve rattles, oil leaks every time.
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Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 01:17:11 -0400
From: "Timothy R. Anderson"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Going south

Azie,
As I hear it, Going South is the mechanical analogy to old age.
Since so many old folks head south after retirement... well, =

you get the picture. Not that Florida or Arizona are human
wrecking yards or anything, they're more like that grassy
spot behind the garage.

Tim in Anchorage
'67 f-100
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Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 00:26:31 -0500
From: "J Elliott"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - radiator

>SWMBO even let me store it in the dining room.

Ah, you are getting somewhere then. You are close to the next plateau. Go
ahead and go for it - put the small-to-medium parts in the dishwasher and
let it rip. You will be amazed what a response that can get. I speak from
experience.

Jim

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Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 00:31:15 -0500
From: "J Elliott"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re: - Going South

>I think it is a way of avoiding saying "going to hell" since south and hell
are
both considered to be in a down direction. Sort of like "Crap" instead of
"Sh**" or "Darn" instead of "Damn" etc..

Or 'religion' instead of 'temper', as in losing?

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