61-79-list-digest Monday, August 3 1998 Volume 02 : Number 392



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1961-1979 Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

Re: FTE 61-79 - Top Loader 4sp
FTE 61-79 - Air cleaner size
FTE 61-79 - Re: FE/FT ID
FTE 61-79 - Re:292 Color
FTE 61-79 - After market seatbelts
FTE 61-79 - old style tire sizes vs tire dia
Re: FTE 61-79 - Top Loader 4sp
Re: FTE 61-79 - Air cleaner size
FTE 61-79 - 76' F-100
FTE 61-79 - Copy or info
FTE 61-79 - open /ciosed knuckles
Re: FTE 61-79 - Copy or info
Re: FTE 61-79 - Copy or info
Re: FTE 61-79 - 76' F-100
Re: FTE 61-79 - After market seatbelts
RE: FTE 61-79 - Copy or info
FTE 61-79 - Re: 400M build
Re: FTE 61-79 - Front Discs
FTE 61-79 - open & closed knuckles
Re: FTE 61-79 - Front Discs
Re: FTE 61-79 - Front Discs
Re: FTE 61-79 - Front Discs
FTE 61-79 - CLOSED KNUCKLES
FTE 61-79 - Toploader
FTE 61-79 - '63 292 Engine Color
FTE 61-79 - PS - box interchange
Re: FTE 61-79 - crank journals
Re: FTE 61-79 - open & closed knuckles

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Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 07:54:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steve & Rockette
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Top Loader 4sp

I forgot to mention, you can tell it's a RUG if the front shift lever
on the case is upsidedown compared to the other levers....

Steve & Rockette...Lifes a beach
'63 F100 Longbox
'94 Taurus SHO - SWMBO's new car!!
and since most are listing all thier cars:
'72 Capri - Rockette's Toy, aka - SWMBO
'73 Capri - My Toy / Daily Driver
'73 MGB-GT Our Toy
'70 Torino GT My "New" Car


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Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 10:37:42 -0500
From: Jim McCarty
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Air cleaner size

I ordered a K&N filter for my stock 73 F100 with 390. When I opened it,
I stupidly oiled it before I checked to see if it fit. DUH!!! Of
course, it didn't. It is about 3/4 or maybe an inch too tall. Correct
diameter, just too tall. BUT - then I looked at the air cleaner and it
has no decals, has holes drilled where they shouldn't be, and the air
inlet is almost facing the passenger side, not aimed at front.

I need a favor. If anyone has a stock 73 F100 with 390, next time you
lift the air cleaner, i sure would like to know how tall is the filter.
I'm beginning to believe I have the right filter (part number checks)
but the wrong air cleaner.

thanks,
Jim McCarty
mccarty ccsi.com
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Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 12:16:31 -0500
From: ballingr ldd.net (William L Ballinger)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re: FE/FT ID

> The engine in my '73 F100 is not original. It is supposed to be a
> 360, and definately (well, 99% certain) has FE manifolds and heads.
> HOWEVER, in "How to Rebuild Big Block Ford Engines" by Steve Christ it
> says that FE blocks have "352" cast into them while FT blocks have a
> mirror-image "105". Guess what is cast into mine... yep, "105". Is it
> an FT? If yes, is this good, bad, or indifferent? The only other
> casting number (or ID of any kind) I could find on this extremely crusty
> engine was "D4TE" (no suffix) which I believe indicates reinforcement
> webs but applies to both FE and FT blocks of various displacements. I
> expect I'll have to take it apart to be sure; it needs a rebuild anyway
> but I'd sure like to know what I'm getting into...

I have one just like it in mine. I doubt that it's all FT though, there
would have to be some adapting to make it work if it was. I'm
speculating here, but it likely is an FT block that came in as a core to
a rebuilder and was remanufactured as a 360 or 390 with passenger car or
light truck internals. Have the casting checked well, they've usually
had the dogsparkle worked out of them, and can be in rough shape. An up
side though is they are supposed to have thicker bores and can be bored
and built as a 428. I've read somewhere that these blocks are a service
replacement for the 428 block. If it's all FT it will have a heavy
steel crank with a larger snout, and some have heavier rods, similar to
the CJ but with 3/8" bolts.

When you pull the pan you'll see an extra rib on the main supports, and
about 1/8" wider pan rail. As long as it hasn't been terminally hot
(though a good machinist can bring one back with some care) it should
make a fine builder, especially if you want to build a hot one.

I plan to put together a stocker someday for my F250, and build the
block I have as a 406. I have a set of '64 352 heads that with big
valves installed are just like a CJ head performance wise( an old
circle-track secret). With a little clean up and CJ intake valves and a
set of Ch*vy 1.72 exhausts these will be some fine breathing and burning
heads. Throw in a 312d .520 lift cam and a 3X2 bbl 406 intake. No
sweeter sounding engine at full song.... While I'm dreaming, how about
a '61 Starliner to put it in?

Walter Mitty signing off,

Ahhh.... gotta go get some air....
- --
Come on over to my Back Porch
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.ldd.net/scribers/ballingr
Ballinger
ballingr ldd.net
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Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 12:24:08 -0500
From: ballingr ldd.net (William L Ballinger)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re:292 Color

> I'm cleaning up my 1963 F-100 under the hood. Can anyone tell me what
> the original color was for a 292 V-8? Are valve cover colors different
> from the block & intake color? Thanks for any help.

I think the '63 cars had a black block and heads with gold valve covers
and air cleaner. Trucks I can't say for sure, but were probably the
same. I had a '61 F250 with a 292 that was all blue, but I suspect it
had been repainted at sometime.
- --
Come on over to my Back Porch
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.ldd.net/scribers/ballingr
Ballinger
ballingr ldd.net
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Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 10:36:08 PDT
From: "Ryan Livingston"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - After market seatbelts

I bought a seat belt from the auto store to replace mine in the F-100.
Anyway I noticed on the release part of the belt that the bolt doesn't
go all the way through the floor as its partialy blocked and the drivers
side I can see the ground. My question is can/should I use the factory
bolts with the set up or should I enlarge the hole with a drill(that I
don't have) or use the factory bolt on one side and set the other side
up with the parts from the box as the instructions stated?
Thanks
Ryan

1977 Hornet Sportabout, 1971 F-100, 1971 Torino 500,
1972 Montego MX Wagon, 1978 New Yorker, 1970 VW Fastback
e-mail: fd71 hotmail.com
web page: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/9027


______________________________________________________
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Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 11:35:55 -0700
From: Vogt Family
Subject: FTE 61-79 - old style tire sizes vs tire dia

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, luxjo thecore.com wrote:
> I just found out that 2 weeks ago new lift laws were written into the
> administrative code covering lifted trucks and tire sizes in NJ. The
> rules read you can have 6 inches bigger (dia) than the largest stock
> tire that came on your truck. The original factory brochure from a 78
> Bronco says the tires were either an L78-15B or optional 7.00 X 15D.
> Anyone know what this tire size equates to in diameter?

My 7.00x15s are about 27 inches tall.

Birken
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Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 18:32:38 EDT
From: GMPACHECO aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Top Loader 4sp

Thanks for the info

Mike in Seattle
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Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:13:01 -0600
From: "Michael White"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Air cleaner size

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim McCarty
To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
Date: Saturday, August 01, 1998 9:45 AM
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Air cleaner size


>I ordered a K&N filter for my stock 73 F100 with 390. When I opened it,
>I stupidly oiled it before I checked to see if it fit. DUH!!! Of
>course, it didn't. It is about 3/4 or maybe an inch too tall. Correct
>diameter, just too tall. BUT - then I looked at the air cleaner and it
>has no decals, has holes drilled where they shouldn't be, and the air
>inlet is almost facing the passenger side, not aimed at front.
>
>I need a favor. If anyone has a stock 73 F100 with 390, next time you
>lift the air cleaner, i sure would like to know how tall is the filter.
>I'm beginning to believe I have the right filter (part number checks)
>but the wrong air cleaner.
>
>thanks,
>Jim McCarty
>mccarty ccsi.com
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>

My next project will be to replace the stock intake, carb, and air
cleaner assembly, with a 4bbl intake, Holley 1850, and an open element K&N
air cleaner assembly. Would the stock assembly (2 5/8" x13" filter) from a
1969 F250 with a 360 engine work for you? This assembly connects an air duct
to the passenger side exhaust manifold and has a flap in order to change the
air flow from the exhaust, to the ducting at the grill. Would you be
interested in selling the K&N filter ? (part #, measurements, cfm rating?)

Michael
mwhite3 gte.net
SLC Utah
BTW:garage still under construction

69 F250 360 auto (awaiting 4 bbl conversion)
69 F250 CS 390 T18 Posi 3.54 (awaiting HP clutch + air conditioning)


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Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 01:56:53 EDT
From: GMPACHECO aol.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - 76' F-100

Well, took the 351C out today. So I have another question, what do I take out
for the power steering, and disc brakes ? everything? What about all the
brakelines.. and what about the rear gears ? Should I pull them for a spare,
also what the heck do I do with the C6 tranny, should I just put a ad in the
local advertiser ? What about the gas tank, guess I'll measure tomorrow, the
76 has a rear tank, ( I need one, I just have the saddle tank ) It may not fit
my 72 ?? Also what about the floorboard ? Will the 76 fit my 72, I have some
rust on mine...


Mike in Seattle
with a million questions
Thanks for your advise !!
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Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 23:19:51 -0700
From: "Chris Samuel"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Copy or info

Hi.
Due to an error that I made while repairing this confounded e-lectronical
device. I have deleted half the world and to those who were wondering why
they were not all there during the last half of the week... sorry:-)
In the last couple of days; somebody mentioned an article on a 400M build in
some magazine. Would that someone, or, another please be so kind as to send
me the name of the mag. and the month. Or, better yet would someone scan it
and send it to me, if it is off the stands already.
Computers are wonderful devices but I think that I don't want one in my
truck or refrigerator... Letz see, that's fun, and cold ones!-)

Thank You
CS.


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Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 01:14:08 -0700
From: "J.Scott Harkema"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - open /ciosed knuckles

When I bought my 76 F-250 in 78 it had a open knuckle
44 in the front w/discs and a married full time t-case
behind a automatic. If it didn't come from the factory
this way somebody did a lot of parts swapping on a 2
year old truck.
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Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 07:46:33 -0500
From: Jim McCarty
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Copy or info

I'm not sure, but I think you are interested in the September issue of
Hot Rod magazine which is probably still on the stand.

Chris Samuel wrote:
>
> Hi.
> Due to an error that I made while repairing this confounded e-lectronical
> device. I have deleted half the world and to those who were wondering why
> they were not all there during the last half of the week... sorry:-)
> In the last couple of days; somebody mentioned an article on a 400M build in
> some magazine. Would that someone, or, another please be so kind as to send
> me the name of the mag. and the month. Or, better yet would someone scan it
> and send it to me, if it is off the stands already.
> Computers are wonderful devices but I think that I don't want one in my
> truck or refrigerator... Letz see, that's fun, and cold ones!-)
>
> Thank You
> CS.
>
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Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 14:00:13 GMT
From: wayside cyberhighway.net (Rob Patelke)
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Copy or info

On Sun, 02 Aug 1998 07:46:33 -0500, you wrote:

>I'm not sure, but I think you are interested in the September issue of
>Hot Rod magazine which is probably still on the stand.
>
I looked yesterday; Sept issue wasn't out yet. I found *one* August issue
at one of the three stands; looks like Sept. should be out soon.
Rob
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Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 09:11:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steve & Rockette
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - 76' F-100

At 01:56 AM 2/8/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Well, took the 351C out today. So I have another question, what do I take out
>for the power steering, and disc brakes ? everything? What about all the
>brakelines.. and what about the rear gears ? Should I pull them for a spare,
>also what the heck do I do with the C6 tranny, should I just put a ad in the
>local advertiser ? What about the gas tank, guess I'll measure tomorrow, the
>76 has a rear tank, ( I need one, I just have the saddle tank ) It may not fit
>my 72 ?? Also what about the floorboard ? Will the 76 fit my 72, I have some
>rust on mine...


I'll take the C6, I want it for the Torino, I'm in Bellevue..........
where you at???


>Mike in Seattle
>with a million questions
>Thanks for your advise !!
>== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
>
>
Steve & Rockette...Lifes a beach
'63 F100 Longbox
'94 Taurus SHO - SWMBO's new car!!
and since most are listing all thier cars:
'72 Capri - Rockette's Toy, aka - SWMBO
'73 Capri - My Toy / Daily Driver
'73 MGB-GT Our Toy
'70 Torino GT My "New" Car


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Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 09:23:25 -0700
From: "Deacon"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - After market seatbelts

From: Ryan Livingston
>I bought a seat belt from the auto store to replace mine in the F-100.
>Anyway I noticed on the release part of the belt that the bolt doesn't
>go all the way through the floor as its partialy blocked and the
drivers
>side I can see the ground.

Man! I needed to read that a couple times to understand it. :)

>My question is can/should I use the factory
>bolts with the set up or should I enlarge the hole with a drill(that I
>don't have)

As a rule of thumb, I never drill a hole the size I don't have a drill
bit for. :]

>or use the factory bolt on one side and set the other side
>up with the parts from the box as the instructions stated?

Your putting too much thought into this Ryan. :) I wouldn't do any
drilling I didn't need to do and I would use whichever hardware worked
the easiest. The less you change from stock the better off you'll be.
Well sometimes you will. Maybe. Maybe not. Who knows? 8)

Deacon
deconblu gte.net http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://home1.gte.net/deconblu/
==============================================
Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm
==============================================



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Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:34:07 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - Copy or info

i rarely get HR, but i picked up this issue (sept.) yesterday. i got
interested in the 400M article. they did nice other ones too, but the 400
was the best bang for the buck there. they made no mention of the "weak"
heads, or other problems associated with this engine.

I am suitably impressed about the numbers they cam up with, even if
inflated they are impressive. Note the large lift numbers of the cam they
chose. and yet it wasn't a revving demon, just a torque monster.

hmm, makes me think, me build a 400 on the cheap? but i can build a 460 to
make that power for the same price me thinks. and i already have almost
everything i need in the garage. decisions decisions decisions. . .

sleddog

- ----------
From: Rob Patelke[SMTP:wayside cyberhighway.net]
Sent: Sunday, August 02, 1998 10:00 AM
To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Copy or info

On Sun, 02 Aug 1998 07:46:33 -0500, you wrote:

>I'm not sure, but I think you are interested in the September issue of
>Hot Rod magazine which is probably still on the stand.
>
I looked yesterday; Sept issue wasn't out yet. I found *one* August issue
at one of the three stands; looks like Sept. should be out soon.
Rob




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Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 16:48:28 -0400
From: luxjo thecore.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re: 400M build

Man!!

I gotta get this article :-). I figured on 1000$ for used 460 and misc
parts just to get a 460 in. Thats a lot of money I could sink into a
400M rebuild. I would love even a 300 HP, 400M. I went to my local mag
rack the other day, but the hot rod they had did not have that article.
Guess I'll have to search somemore.

OX

OX
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Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 22:53:41 -0500
From: "Michael R. Masse"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Front Discs

At 10:10 PM 7/31/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Actually, my '75 F250 4x4 had an auto and divorced full-time, along with
>front drums and closed knuckles- until I redid it this year. All F250
>4x4 up to mid-77 has closed knuckles and drums (unless Dana 60's were
>different, never seen them). Late '77 and up were married transfer
>cases, open knuckles, discs, and better power steering.
>

I beg to differ with this statement. I have two F250 D44 front axles, and
both are open knuckle with disk brakes. Each one came off a '76 and
considering how "stock" the rest of those vehicles were, I doubt if the
previous owners on both of these vehicles did a swap to a later axle. I'm
pretty sure the frame widths changed in '77 1/2 making the swap much more
difficult than just a bolt in. They also used the hydraulic ram power
assist type steering which wasn't used in the later 77 models as far as I
know.


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Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 21:42:48 PDT
From: "Dave Walbeck"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - open & closed knuckles

Hi All, I can't help on the half ton stuff, but, all 75 and earlier
F250's were drum brake, closed knuckle front ends (If your 75 or older
has a disc brake open knuckle frontend it has been changed).
76 & 77 1/2 F250's had open knuckle disc brake front ends. Period.
Automatic or standard transmission had no effect on if it had disc/open
knuckle or not.


Dave Complete and Total FORDNUT, Highboy Nut, & FE Nut Too!!!!!!


______________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:27:34 EDT
From: JUMPINFORD aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Front Discs

Just another tid bit. My dad has a 75 F-250 4x4 that we built in our garage,
It has a Dana 60 off of a 75 F-350 that is open knuckle w/disc brakes. It
also has the hydraulic Ram steering. I think that 73 was the last year for
closed knuckle, as I almost bought one. The closed knuckle was actually the
reason I did it because they cannot be trussed as well as an open knuckle.
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Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 23:46:42 +0000
From: Don Grossman
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Front Discs

Michael R. Masse wrote:

> I'm
> pretty sure the frame widths changed in '77 1/2 making the swap much more
> difficult than just a bolt in. They also used the hydraulic ram power
> assist type steering which wasn't used in the later 77 models as far as I
> know.

The front frame width is within about 1/2" from 59-79 that I am sure of. I
have been doing some checking around here and there and everywhere and the 78
F-250 D44 was a perfect fit to the springs under my 63. The center to center
of the spring pads is 32" witch happens to be the same a shevy 4x's.

- --
Don Grossman
duckdon pacific.net
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.pacific.net/~duckdon

63 F-100 4x4 with 3/4 ton running gear and most of the trimmings.


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Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 23:53:30 +0000
From: Don Grossman
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Front Discs

JUMPINFORD aol.com wrote:

> Just another tid bit. My dad has a 75 F-250 4x4 that we built in our garage,
> It has a Dana 60 off of a 75 F-350 that is open knuckle w/disc brakes. It
> also has the hydraulic Ram steering. I think that 73 was the last year for
> closed knuckle, as I almost bought one. The closed knuckle was actually the
> reason I did it because they cannot be trussed as well as an open knuckle.
> == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
>

Since we are tossing our bits around, I just came a cross a mostly stock (it
has a flat bed) 74 F-250 crewcab 4x4 with a D60 front. it was closed knuckle
drum brake so it didn't interest me that much but the hubs and locking hubs
looked identical to the HD Dana 44's that I have seen. $2800 360 4 speed 205
case 410 gears. If it had disk brakes it would be in my driveway right now.

Laters

Anyone know when the Goodguys will be in Pleasanton?


- --
Don Grossman
duckdon pacific.net
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.pacific.net/~duckdon

63 F-100 4x4 with 3/4 ton running gear and most of the trimmings.


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Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:11:44 -0400
From: am14 chrysler.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - CLOSED KNUCKLES

Ross H writes: >>Actually, my '75 F250 4x4 had an auto and divorced
full-time, along with front drums and closed knuckles-

Ditto on the one I parted out. I kept the front axle, the rear axle and
the C6. The engine and the transfer case went back to the Salvage yard.

Azie
Ardmore, Al.


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Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:19:44 -0400
From: am14 chrysler.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Toploader

Mike in Seattle writes: >>The speed shop said it was a
3+1 Toploader.. but I don't have a granny, I did notice that between 2nd
and 3rd there is quite a difference, seems like in order to use it
correctly I have to be in a race mode.. then to change to 4th I have to be
going at least 70 and it'll be taching about 2k.. rear end is 3.25

With that speed and that RPM with a 3.25 rear it has to be the 3+1 or the
4th gear being OD. The 1st three gears should be almost the same as a three
speed with 4th being around .69 OD. My understanding these transmissions
were only made a few years in the early 80's. and were not designed to take
the torque of the large displacement engines.


Azie
Ardmore, Al


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Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 08:29:08 -0500
From: John Strauss
Subject: FTE 61-79 - '63 292 Engine Color

>I'm cleaning up my 1963 F-100 under the hood. Can anyone tell me what
>the original color was for a 292 V-8? Are valve cover colors different
>from the block & intake color? Thanks for any help.
>
Originally, the 292 in the trucks had red valve covers and intake and the
rest of the block and heads had NO PAINT, if you can believe that. I
painted mine black with Ford Red intake and valve covers. It looks real
nice that way.
_
_| ~~. John Strauss
\, *_} jstrauss inetport.com
\( Texas Fight!

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Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:22:31 -0500
From: "J Elliott"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - PS - box interchange

Hopefully a simple one: Will the Ford integral power steering box from 73-79
interchange with the one on my '69?



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Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:21:56 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - crank journals

Date sent: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:32:03 -0700
From: Blaine Strong
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - crank journals

> grinding, although I have seen them used. My contention is that the wheel
> needs to have a fresh dress for the last .001 or so otherwise you MAY have
> trouble with taper and or out-of-round.
>
> Maybe I'm being too anal, its just that sometimes I have to hold a
> tolerance of +-.00005", yes thats fifty millionths of an inch.

No, we're talking the same turkey :-) That was my point, you can get sloppy
and not keep the wheel trued for the last pass and have a bumpy journal. I've
seen high school kids running these things, just wondered how hard they are
to keep true etc.. My guess it they need to have a good, experienced
operator and he needs some training to do a good job but how does a
customer determine if he has the qualifications? :-(

This is why I'm thinking of buying the crank kit from PAW rather than have
mine reground. At least there you have some guarantee of quality and come
accountability with a repution at stake. Still no real guarantee but better than
you get with a local shop generally I would think.

Greed is the Creed of the Breed
who did away with the Steed...

- -- Gary --
== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 12:34:26 -0400
From: Tony Marino
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - open & closed knuckles

I hate to thow iron's in the fire, But I gotta know- Regarding ONLY Front
Dana 60's, which ones had a reverse cut (upper pinion) and which had
regular cut (lower pinions)? Were the Closed Knuckles the only lower
pinion ones? Did closed knuckle come with an upper pinion? What years?
I'm trying to locate a low pinion, closed knuckle axle here in Ohio, and....


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