61-79-list-digest Sunday, July 12 1998 Volume 02 : Number 369



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1961-1979 Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

Re: FTE 61-79 - 427 sohc
FTE 61-79 - Exhaust systems
RE: FTE 61-79 - 427 sohc
FTE 61-79 - Camshafts
FTE 61-79 - RE: Able TRuck Wrecking
FTE 61-79 - Re: Gas tank conversion(was 1963 rear end sway)
FTE 61-79 - overheating/underheating
[none]
FTE 61-79 - ADMIN: Server went down
RE: FTE 61-79 - Dual Exhaust
FTE 61-79 - Ugly Bed
FTE 61-79 - What clutch do I have?
FTE 61-79 - NP205 Rebuild
FTE 61-79 - 1967 F100 VIN and rear end tag nomenclature
FTE 61-79 - AC recharge with 134A
Re: FTE 61-79 - AC recharge with 134A
FTE 61-79 - Pesky rear hub oil seal failure
Re: FTE 61-79 - Cool Screen Saver
Re: FTE 61-79 - 76-77 4x4 Front Dana 44
FTE 61-79 - Re: Re: DUI Distributor
FTE 61-79 - Dana 60 gears
Re: FTE 61-79 - 76-77 4x4 Front Dana 44

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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:03:19 -0700
From: Keith Srb
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - 427 sohc

At 09:56 AM 7/10/98 -0400, you wrote:
>At 02:33 AM 7/10/98 EDT, you wrote:
>>I just saw that awesome 427 pics from pigeon forge.I was just wondering if
>>anyone knew how much hp that beauty made?
>
>I think the rating was 625 stock.
>
>rmmmmmmmmm rmmmmmmm brappppppppp
>
>Ken Payne
>

According to the Ford V-8 Workshop,
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.wrljet.com/engines/427sohc.html.

"Factory ratings were 615 hp 7000 rpm with a single 4-barrel, and 657 hp
7500 with dual carburetors. The engines weigh 680 lbs."

Ken, I think you are right. If I remember right, the board they had in
front of the truck at Pigeon Forge said the engine was rated at 625 hp
7000 rpm. Anyway you look at it, it was definitely over 600 hp!

Anybody got an extra cammer laying around that they would part with
cheap??? (yea, right)

later


Keith Srb herbie netvalue.net
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://members.netvalue.net/herbie
Mesa, AZ

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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:30:29 -0700
From: "Douglas W. Hack"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Exhaust systems

I had a guy who manufactured exhaust systems for a special application
similar to mine put a system into a car I'd swapped engines in. Even
though the application was similar, he had to experiment to get an
acceptable level of sound. Luckily he was willing to share the costs of
this experimenting. There are a lot of variables between different
engines and exhaust systems. Exhaust pulse intensity is effected by the
way the engine is built. Headers have different designs and
efficiencies. Larger tubes reduce back pressure but slow down the
exhaust pulses, overall length matters, mufflers vary widely, and their
distance from the header matters too. Then there is a trade-off between
performance and sound, not to mention noise.

The first combination he put in my car was really hot - just a high-flow
turbo muffler and medium sized tubes. Braaap-braaap-braaap. Clearly
good for performance, but not civilized. He then added a glass-pack
muffler near the tail as an expansion chamber to soften the exhaust
pulses. This helped a lot, but there was still an objectionable
harmonic at a certain engine speed. Finally he made the exit pipe
slightly smaller in diameter. This exhaust system is still plenty loud
in good ways, but doesn't sound like a race car anymore, and some
performance was traded off.

I don't mention my experience as any sort of recommendation - my point
is that there are a heck of a lot of variables and trade-offs, and what
sounds good to one person can get you a fix-it ticket. My
recommendation is that you buy a complete developed system from a
company that is very familiar with your application and has already done
the experimenting.

- -- Doug Hack
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:55:57 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - 427 sohc

can you say *almost* enough!

sleddog

- ----------
From: JUMPINFORD aol.com[SMTP:JUMPINFORD aol.com]
Sent: Friday, July 10, 1998 2:33 AM
To: 61-79-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - 427 sohc

I just saw that awesome 427 pics from pigeon forge.I was just wondering if
anyone knew how much hp that beauty made?
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:06:19 -0500
From: ballingr ldd.net (William L Ballinger)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Camshafts

>
> More Cam questions - I am lacking in general knowledge as to what makes
> a cam aggressive or mild as far as duration and lift numbers go. What
> would be considered a "high lift" cam. What would typical numbers for an
> RV cam be?
> What specs typically provide low end power vs high rev power and why
> would one be desirable over the other?
> Any and all info is appreciated.
> Sleddog? Azzie? Steve? anyone else?


Sleddog? Azzie? Steve? anyone else?

What makes a cam agressive or mild is determined by the timing of the
valve events to crankshaft position. The lift is a value that will
determine the maximum amount of mixture that an engine can theoretically
digest at the moment it is fully open. The amount of time the valve
spends open takes that value into its actual application by setting a
value on the amount of time it's open.

Lift:
There are limits (besides physical contact ones) to the amount of lift
you can use in a given engine. If you put a .700 lift cam in an head
that will stop flowing at .500, it can cause the port to stall and not
make any more power (or even less) than a .500 lift cam, and it will be
soggy at lower lift where most of the stroke is occouring. The idea is
to get the most lift that your engine and it's intended use can reliably
handle. Keep in mind that a higher lift cam needs better valvetrain
components than a low lift one, at the same duration value, since it
must snap the valves open and shut quicker.

Duration:
Duration is a bit misrepresented in the way it's used to compare cams.
Two cams with the same duration and lift specs can be very different in
the way they work. A much better comparison can be made by looking at
their seat-to-seat timing of valve events. This is where the valves
actually open and close according to crankshaft position. What works
best in a given engine is determined by the whole combination from air
cleaner to tailpipe, and must take into account the weight and intended
use of the vehicle. Most of the research involved is done for better or
worse by the cam companies. The principle involved is to maximize the
filling of the engine with the best quality
combustable mixture that the intake tract is capable of delivering at
the desired rpm level, and empty the engine after each combustion with a
tuned pulse that pulls the spent mixture out without backflowing and
contaminating the next incoming mixture charge, and do it within a
specific powerband. This is very application specific.

The Big Bugaboo With Big Cams:
Overlap. The period of time that both valves are open. A higher lift,
longer duration cam will by nature have more overlap than a stock cam.
Both valves will be open and part of the fresh mixture will be pushed
out of the exhaust. If you are turning enough rpm's the pulses will
stabilize and the losses will be proportionally less than at lower rpms,
so this cam profile won't make as much low end power as it could because
of the losses, but will make more power up high because of more mixture
flowing in at speed. Now if you sped up the opening and closing period
and spent more of the time involved at maximum lift, and compressed
these events, you can effectively shorten the
amount of overlap, and still have the flow (and by virtue of less loss
and more time at max lift, even more)of the former cam. This is what a
roller cam does, since it is capable of dealing reliably with faster
valve events. Bottom-end power comes back with a vengeance.

Recommendations:
So before choosing a cam, be honest with yourself about what you have
and how it will be used. This is the most important step. What are your
goals? More power in one area will usually take away from somewhere
else. If mileage , low-end power, and long life(with cheap parts)is
your goal, stick with a stock grind, or one with just a bit more lift
and the same duration. Use the overlap value to compare two cams, in
this application (and really most others)less is better. As you go up
profiles and in rpm bands, you'll lose low-end and towing power, and
vacuam signal, but some of this can be offset by raising the compression
ratio. A wider duration cam can tolerate more static compression since
it bleeds off cylinder pressure. If you drive it slow this setup will
be less efficient and create more pollution than a milder combination.
There will be more expensive parts involved to maintain the reliaility
factor also, especially if you opt for a cam that snaps the valves open
and shut much quicker. If you run it hard alot, get more duration and
lift, and learn to live with it's ideosyncracies. It's all what you
want out of it. I'd reccomend contacting Crane Cams with your honest
assessment of your combination and your goals, and use their research
for your engine to your purpose. They will be mighty close, and my
experience with them has been very good.
- --
Come on over to my Back Porch
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.ldd.net/scribers/ballingr
Ballinger
ballingr ldd.net
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:35:40 -0700
From: Tom&Carol Hogan
Subject: FTE 61-79 - RE: Able TRuck Wrecking

- ------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:54:55 -0700
From: Brian Koss
Subject: FTE 61-79 - RE: Able TRuck Wrecking

I believe the name is Able Truck Wrecking. It may be AAA Truck Wreckers.

They are off of Industrial, I think it is depot road but don't know for
sure, in Hayward. The are the second from the last yard befroe the dead
end
at the bay. The is a good door pocket on the drivers side door of a
white
66 custum cab in the north west corner of the lot. It is sitting
precaqriously on some truck axles. There yard is a mess but they haver a

lot of stuff.
=======================
AAA Truck Wreckers 3884 Depot Rd Hayward 510-782-9433. Good source.
Lots of older trucks. Be Very carefull here. The trucks are stacked on
top of each other. Also, bring a set of rubber rain/mud boots. You'll
thank yourself if you do!! As I rember there is no charge to look. Go
find your part first and then haggle with the guy at the counter. After
the price is set then go pull your part. These guys are fairly decent
to work with. I got my cruise control system there.

Another source in the bay area is the Truck Stop (408)-727-9966 in San
Jose. It is a small yard and the owner is usually there to deal with.
They are pretty good but their prices tend to be a little higher.

I'm not affiliated with either of these yards. Just found them to be
decent people who treat their customers well. Also some of the few
yards that carry stuff in the years we talk about here.

Tom H.

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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:35:24 EDT
From: bobherring juno.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re: Gas tank conversion(was 1963 rear end sway)

"Kevin Leone" wrote:
>- -I plan on putting a gas tank between the rails in the rear once I
>either construct one myself, or find a suitable donor that is narrow
>enough, but still has about 19 gal. capacity. A jeep cj's only has 15,
>and late model one's are plastic. I'd like to find something bigger.
>Once I do relocate the tank that should help redistribute the weight to
>an extent.
>
Kevin, there was an article, a few years ago, about this in Classic
Trucks. It was about a gas tank conversion for a late 50's Ford.
They used a tank from an '85 Isuzu Trooper. It was supposed to be
an exact fit, between the frame where the spare used to ride.
They only had to drill holes in the flange to bolt it down.
I think I saved the article.
Bobby

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:40:12 -0500
From: "John LaGrone"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - overheating/underheating

I have been vocal about giving advice on overheating. I am in no way trying
to say that any other advice is wrong. I am relaying my experiences and
preferences. I gaurantee that it is next to impossible to diagnose the
exact overheating cause over the internet. My last bit of advice on
overheating: consider everything that has been said, then try what seems to
fit your circumstance.

I wish I could make my truck run140..... mph, not degrees. Really and
truly, I didn't think anything would run that cold in the summer even with
no thermostat.


- -John

jmlagron tenet.edu
1979 F150 Custom 351M C6, bashed in left side
1988 Towncar 5.0 EFI AOD
Macintosh G3/233 minitower (When speed counts, count on Macintosh)
1979 MC under restoration (my son is rebellious, but he loves old cars!!!)

Dearborn iron rules!!!!!!


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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:39:36 -0500
From: "John LaGrone"
Subject: [none]

Thanks one and all for the kind words, encouragement and advice. Insurance
companies are quick when the bill is due, but slow when it comes to
settling a claim. I'll keep you updated as the drama unfolds. I got the
police report Monday morning. My neighbor admitted being at fault and was
cited for failure to set the emergency brake. At least he can't wiggle off
that hook. It's Friday and still no news from the insurance company.

As I looked under Henry this morning, I could tell that the rocker panel
under the door opening is bowed. The weld at the bottom rear of the door
opening is broken (cracked) and there is another weld about five or six
inches up the rear of the door opening that is broken. I still can't open
the door and won't until the insurance has contacted me. I have to generate
nerve to go inspect it without starting to fix it.

I was very lucky in this "accident".(It should be called "an event caused
by severe stupidity".) No one was hurt. I caught the guy who did it. I have
the FTE list for support and understanding. Thanks again. (I will be calm.
I will NOT choke the insurance adjuster. I will be calm......)


- -John

jmlagron tenet.edu
1979 F150 Custom 351M C6, bashed in left side
1988 Towncar 5.0 EFI AOD
Macintosh G3/233 minitower (When speed counts, count on Macintosh)
1979 MC under restoration (my son is rebellious, but he loves old cars!!!)

Dearborn iron rules!!!!!!


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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:59:02 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: FTE 61-79 - ADMIN: Server went down

Our server was down this afternoon for a couple of hours.
If anyone tried posting then, chances are good your post
is lost. Give it an hour or so, if the post doesn't show
up, try again.

Ken Payne
CoAdmin, Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com

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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:47:52 -0500
From: Brett McCoy
Subject: RE: FTE 61-79 - Dual Exhaust

I have a 460 in my F250 crew cab. I needed to clean up a badly rusted
dual system. So I cut the duals off just about where they bend together
if you run them both down the passenger side. Then installed a
flowmaster 2.25" to 3" Y-pipe. After that installed a high flow 3" cat
(needed for smog police). Then followed it with a 3" in and out
flowmaster muffler. Tailpipe exits in stock location, passenger side
behind rear wheel. The old system had dual glass packs with no
crossover. I did not loose any power, in fact I think I picked up a
little and it sounds great. Nice low tone that is not to loud at idle
and cruise up to 75 mph and a good growl when you kick it. I highly
recommend this setup, or some variation to all.

- -B
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:54:20 -0500
From: ballingr ldd.net (William L Ballinger)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Ugly Bed

I was going through the classifieds on the FTE site and saw an ad for a
'58-'65 Styleside bed, I think it was Birken who was looking for one. It
might be worth looking into.
- --
Come on over to my Back Porch
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.ldd.net/scribers/ballingr
Ballinger
ballingr ldd.net
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:02:22 -0700
From: "Douglas W. Hack"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - What clutch do I have?

I took the T18 out of my parts truck today and got my first peak at the
clutch inside the bell housing. This is a '78 F250 2-wheel and seems
pretty original, but the pressure plate cover does not look like what
the illustrations in the '78 Shop Manual shows. The Manual shows two
options, one is designated as an 11 inch clutch and looks like it might
be a diaphram type. The other is designated as a 12-inch clutch and is
a very triangular looking Long-style cover with 9 springs. What I have
is a Long-style cover with twelve springs in a circle. It has three
cast fingers, with full centrifugal weights. The cover is stamped: Type
11.5 CF. Has someone swapped something in here, or is this stock? I
assume the 11.5 means it uses an eleven and one-half inch clutch disk.
Anybody have any ideas what CF means? The clutch disk itself has F3
printed on the hub in white paint.

Comments? Doug Hack
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:02:14 EDT
From: BDIJXS aol.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - NP205 Rebuild

Hey Marko,

Do you have a good exploded view/assembly instructions for the 205? I have
everything laid out pretty much how it came apart, but a little help here
would go a long way....I just ordered a master rebuild kit from a place in
Michigan, I'm not sure what kind of paperwork will be coming with it...

Thanks!

Colorado Jeff
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:34:06 -0400
From: Garry Bowling
Subject: FTE 61-79 - 1967 F100 VIN and rear end tag nomenclature

Can someone please check their books and tell me about my VIN and rear
end on my 1967 F100
VIN: F10YCB17093
Body: 58I
Axle: 7
Differential tag nomenclature: DM-H
3.25 7DA 313
Thanks in advance for help
Garry
1967 F100 Longbed.
garrya bellsouth.net

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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:23:29 -0700
From: Tom&Carol Hogan
Subject: FTE 61-79 - AC recharge with 134A

Has anyone used the 134A recharge kits? I've just seen one at the local
Kragens. Reading the package it seemed that you change the fittings on
the pump, add the special oil, and add the 134A. The package led me to
believe you do this on top of the existing R12 charge. Is this
correct? Does it cool well? Will it damage the current system, pump,
hoses, seals?

TIA
Tom H.

BTW I'm on vacation the next week. If anyone needs to contact me use
tnchogan earthlink.net. I use two accounts to submit to the list and
one of them is at work. :0)

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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:44:08 EDT
From: JUMPINFORD aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - AC recharge with 134A

As far as using it with an existing charge, the answer is no, it must be
evacuated by a licenced A/C tech so as to prevenr any lingering R-12 from
getting into the atmosphere. The oil in the compressor must be changed, and
anything that might hold oil, such as the reciever/dryer must be replaced.
All though some don't say so, I recomend changing all the o-rings as well.
The reason for this is that the 2 systems use incompatable oils. One
suggestion though, Latest word is that the EPA has admitted they were wrong
about R-12 and the so-called damaging effects to the Ozone. they confirmed
what anyone trained to use R-12 knows. R-12 is heavier than air, so how does
it get into the atmosphere to do damage. If all goes well, R-12 will once
again be legal to make in the U.S., and the price should go down.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:39:55 -0600
From: "Michael White"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Pesky rear hub oil seal failure

After only 3,000 miles in my 69 F250 on a fresh rear axle assembly (new
pinion, ring gear, clutch plates for dana 60 trac loc posi, bearings, seals,
brakes), I noticed an oil seal failure at the left rear. This made me very
upset, as I spent alot of time working on that axle (even primer and paint,
after scraping and die grinding exterior). I have disassembled and found the
problem. The truck had sat for many years before I bought it, and rust had
formed at the top inside portion of the axle tubes. When I worked on it the
first time I only pushed a rag through the tubes. It seems a few thousand
miles of driving broke alot of rust loose! Anyone got some good ideas on how
to clean rust from the inside of the axle tubes? Would it be a good idea to
drill and tap a hole in the bottom of the housing for a magnetic drain plug
(or is that a bad idea)?


Michael

69 F250 360, auto
69 F250 390, T18, Posi 3.54







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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 03:39:15 EDT
From: BlueOval77 aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Cool Screen Saver

Sounds like a great idea. Once you get it finished let us know. I'd like to
take a look. If I like it I'll pay you for one.

John
91 Mustang GT
77 F-150 Ranger 4x4
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 03:54:38 EDT
From: BlueOval77 aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - 76-77 4x4 Front Dana 44

In a reply to this original message OX writes

>Should, only difference between 77-78 F-150's was the grill.

FYI, another difference between the two is the design of the tie-rod ends, the
77 having the inverted-T design and the 78 having the inverted-Y. Apparently
FORD used the inverted-Y both before and after 77, using the 77 model year as
an experiment with the inverted-T. The inverted-Y is more desirable for
lifting the truck.

John
91 Mustang GT
77 F-150 Ranger 4x4
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 04:04:26 EDT
From: BlueOval77 aol.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re: Re: DUI Distributor

I am very sorry to get back to you so late, however I have been on an extended
vacation and had someone keeping track of the list for me. I can no longer
download this edition of the digest and I can't recall who wanted to know
about the DUI Dist. Please accept my apologies.

I can't tell you whether or not it's as good as the ads claim it is as my 351W
is still being built. However as soon as I get the engine into my truck and
have driven it for a while past break-in I'll let you know. Hope whoever
wanted to know sees this post and lets me know who he is. :)

John
91 Mustang GT
77 F-150 Ranger 4x4
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:55:01 EDT
From: BDIJXS aol.com
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Dana 60 gears

Does anyone need a set of 3:73 gears (ring + pinion) for a Dana 60? They came
out of a 72' F-250 and are in good shape. Let me know and they're yours...you
just cover shipping.

Colorado Jeff
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:59:46 +0000
From: Don Grossman
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - 76-77 4x4 Front Dana 44

BlueOval77 aol.com wrote:

> In a reply to this original message OX writes
>
> >Should, only difference between 77-78 F-150's was the grill.
>
> FYI, another difference between the two is the design of the tie-rod ends, the
> 77 having the inverted-T design and the 78 having the inverted-Y. Apparently....


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