Re: FTE 61-79 - FE timing question

61-79-list-digest Sunday, May 31 1998 Volume 02 : Number 323

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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1961-1979 Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

Re: FTE 61-79 - FE timing question
FTE 61-79 - 70 F100 S/B 2wd - Salty Winters
FTE 61-79 - VIN number
Re: FTE 61-79 - Re: Clothespins on fuel lines
Re: FTE 61-79 - Manifolds for 460
Re: FTE 61-79 - manifold vs. ported, was FE timing
FTE 61-79 - SunPro tach
FTE 61-79 - EFI on a '73 302
Re: FTE 61-79 - Carbs
Re: FTE 61-79 - Brake light update
FTE 61-79 - Re: FE Timing
Re: FTE 61-79 - EFI
FTE 61-79 - GM parts on a Ford
Re: FTE 61-79 - EFI on a '73 302
Re: FTE 61-79 - EFI on a '73 302

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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 07:43:30 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - FE timing question

> Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 23:14:53 -0400
> From: Ken Payne
> Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - FE timing question

> One problem with using unported vacuum at idle is that if You set
> up the carb to give a nice idle when warmed up, say with 18" of
> vacuum then when the motor is cold and there's only 14" of vacuum
> it wants to idle much to slow. I found it almost impossible to get
> a nice stable idle speed over a wide range of operating temps with
> unported vacuum.

I hate to admit it but what you say makes sense. In order for it to
idle with less advance it has to have a richer mixture and of course
a richer mixture works better when it's cold but I don't see how a
leaner mixture with more advance will produce more unburned HC's?
When the engine is running at the fastest speed it will run with the
mixture and advance as lean and advanced as it can be you should be
running very close to stoich? I say this because engine speed is a
result of gasses and heat produced, more means more so you are
getting all you can get out of the mixture at that setting IMHO?

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!

- -- Gary --
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 08:58:04 -0400
From: "THE PAVIES'"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - 70 F100 S/B 2wd - Salty Winters

OK- playing digest catch-up here again. For Salty Winters Rust Control,
I spray WD-40 on the undersides of all my vehicles. You can buy it by
the gallon at places like Home Depot, etc. My vehicles get a liberal
and thorough dowsing of the stuff (except on the exhaust and brakes, of
course) every 3,000 miles at oil-change time. SWMBO accusses me of
trying to get a high from the smell of it but actually the WD-40 works
well for me here in PA for Rust
Control.
Sorry I couldn't include the original post here but I haven't figured
out how to clip out a quote yet. Jack P.
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 09:36:34 -0400
From: "THE PAVIES'"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - VIN number

- -This VIN tag is on the firewall of my 70's-something F250. Can someone
- -please interpret for me?
- -
- - 295 F25BMDH5403 16
- - 46 33 4BR 20K 7
- -
- -What's it trying to say? I've already run the F25BMDH5403 number on the
- -VIN program so I really, really need to know what the other numbers
- -mean. This is all part of the problem that comes up when you put a
- -later year cab on an older truck in an EPA-suppressed state like PA.
- -When you go for emissions inspection, the guy takes the VIN from the
- -door post and then goes hunting for all the emissions stuff that is
- -supposed to be on the engine for that year. You FLUNK if all those
- -things aren't there. The change I made was done years ago so I never
- -thought to save the VIN tags on the door and firewall off the old cab.
- -
- -To save space on this post, I'd appreciate a private e-mail answer. If
- -there is a reference manual out there somewhere that I can find these
- -numbers myself, let me know the title and ISBN if possible.
- -Thanks! Jack P.
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 09:51:49 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Re: Clothespins on fuel lines

> Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 20:43:13 -0700
> From: Pat Brown
> Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re: Clothespins on fuel lines

> John wrote:
> >> Another thing to do is replace the metal line with a rubber one
> >> or putting a wooden clothes pin on the fuel line. Don't ask me
> >> how this last one works but for sure it does.

> SEE! I KNEW IT! Gary, you didn't install it with the magic magnet!
> If you install it just right, the magnet will re-align to north
> everytime!

This has been a lot of fun but really I've found the rubber hose
solves it most of the time since it does act as an insulator to some
extent so the outside stays hot but the inside is cooled by the
incoming fuel. Don't use clothes pins, I really don't believe they
do anything unless you use an awfull lot of them. Before we had
reliable rubber hose for fuel applications the old timers did what
they could to insulate the lines but now we have no excuse :-)

Again you could have a combination of percolation and vapor lock and
they could be caused by the same problem, too much heat getting to
the carb or it's base and affecting the temp right at the inlet. It
may not even be a line problem but still be vapor lock in that case.
I believe that was the problem with my van with cast iron EGR plate
under the carb along with the exhaust path under there as well. By
looping the rubber fuel line up about a foot over the carb and back
down again to the inlet I ensured there would be liquid at the inlet
and the problem went away. Even if it boiled, the weight of the fuel
kept some liquid at the bottom so the float bowls always had liquid
fuel rather than fumes.

When I finally get to my bronco 460 project it will have some
stainless braided line for everything including fuel. I don't
anticipate any more fuel related problems when I do that along with a
rubber base spacer of some sort.

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!

- -- Gary --
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> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 00:00:21 EDT
> Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Manifolds for 460

> i notched the frame on my 78 f150 4x4 when i put the 429 pi in
> it,this was done about 12 years ago,this truck gets used and
> abused,stump jumpin,muddin,sled pullin,and daily transportation and
> ihave not had any problem with the notch,in fact i was looking at it
> today.i was showing a friend what had to be done to install a 460 in
> his 78 f250 extended cab swb.

I notched my first one too and also reinforced it but the rear exit
manifold is really much more elegant and easy to work with and stock
truck exhaust systems were made to fit it perfectly so there are
several advantages to having the right manifold. I found that no
matter how I routed mine it was somewhat restricted due the the
location so you probably could get better flow with the truck
manifold as well.

Of course the headers didn't require notching and the Stan's tri-Y
sound like the best way to go since they don't get too close to the
starter. I may try them on my bronco project.

I guess if I had it to do all over again I'd get the L&L mounts and
headers that fit. In the long run you save money by eliminating all
the trial and error and wasted exhaust parts etc.. I bought and
modified two systems before going to headers and custom exhaust. I
could have done this off the bat and saved myself some work and money
as well.

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!

- -- Gary --
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 08:39:22 -0500
From: "Dale and Donna Carmine"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - SunPro tach

Hi Dave,

I think that David hit the nail on the head in pointing to the ground.

Ahh! but it is grounded through every bulb filament.

>and then turning the panel light dimmer all the way down, and lo and
>behold, the tach comes back to life w/ the panel lights completely dimmed

This verifies that the ground is the problem. Like David said, if you are
100% sure that the external ground is good then it may be inside the tach.
Good Luck!

later,
dale c

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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 09:04:56 -0500
From: "Dale and Donna Carmine"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - EFI on a '73 302

deac,

Check out http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.windsor-fox.com/ for an EFI harness. Probably a higher
$$ approach but they will custom build a harness that will plug directly
into your existing wiring.

later,
dale c

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ford.com.whatever that I only stated "my" creed or likes as to

> someone lecturing me with statements of " my ears are closed on the
> subject" is this a Ford corporate buzz phrase? Many of these

I can't remember what I was responding to now but I think it had to
do with FORD union radicals saying is was ok to buy chevy but not
toyota because the money stays in this country and I say they are the
same enemy when you work for ford and chevy money doesn't benifit me
and any way, shape or form, there is no difference and any arguments
they proposed were very subjective and narrow not objective and open
so the statement I made, sorry if that's offensive but I get tired of
the propaganda polution :-)

As to using what ever works, I feel strongly that I have that right
and loyalty has to be earned even when you work for them. Ford makes
a good vehicle so I drive and buy fords and haven't found them
lacking anything the other's aren't so I'm not wasting my money but
if they choose not to make their carbs (or EFI) fully adjustable then
I'm under no obligation to stick with them since in that case there
are superior versions available.

If we really want to get technical, from a purist stand point, the
after market brands are just as illegal as chevy or AMC or chrysler
parts IMHO. I feel completely exhonerated in the fact that if ford
did make a fully adjustable spread bore (or even EFI) I would be
first in line to buy it, but they don't so.........:-)

My ears are closed to the extent that I have not heard a VALID
argument to change my mind and after 53 years it's probably not going
to happen :-) Since I'm politically neutral and don't expect men to
handle God's work as well as he could I don't expect honest reasoning
from political types, we're all imperfect and therefore biased in
some way or another. I buy fords because I like them and in my
position as an employee I think it's the right thing to do. When I
retire I don't expect anything to change there :-)

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!

- -- Gary --
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 21:32:16 -0400
From: William King
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re: FE Timing

FTE'ers,
Well, I should have know better than to start my
post with "this is a simple one," but I
appreciate all the input from folks on the list
and Colorado Jeff. I am using manifold vacum
and things are running fine (now for the clothes-
pins). My new Edelbrock carb and manifold are
keeping me happy, and the intake isn't leaking oil
around the front seal anymore either (yipee!!).
If anyone is thinking about changing their manifold,
I can concur w/ others on the list; use RTV and toss
the stupid end gaskets. After watching the cork end
gaskets squeeze out two times, I pitched them and used
RTV. So far so good.
Anyway, thanks to everyone on the list for helping
out. If it weren't for you, I'd be sucking on a vacum
line in the cab to get my timing right or replacing the
powervalve in a Holley about now (and my truck still
wouldn't be running).
Ohio Bill (Now with 360 4V and Toploader too!)

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thecore.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - EFI

> ell I am not going to speak about "all" but my 96 sure is a sequential
> port fuel injection and I love it too, I think the idea you have is long
> overdue.

Cool!, this is the first I've heard of this. Please tell me it's mass
air!!!

OX
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 22:59:41 -0500
From: John Strauss
Subject: FTE 61-79 - GM parts on a Ford

>Many of these
>Outsource suppliers you mentioned were not owned by GM at the time of there
>supply to FoMoCo. The Auto trans you spoke of was used by many including
>Rolls-Royce and Bentley. Frigidaire was really "Frigidaire" at one time as
>was Delco. GM doesn't even own Frigidaire anymore it is Japanese owned now.
>
OK, I know you cannot believe it, but I am going to argue. I believe in
accuracy so I have to say this is not true. Sorry. The transmission in
question was the Hydra-Matic. Hydramatic was at the time and has always
been a subsidiary of OLDSMOBILE. In the case of the compressors, this was
in the 70s. GM owned Frigidaire from it's inception up until the 80s. My
Mom has only had two refrigerators since I've been on this earth some 37
years and both were Frigidaires, one from the mid-50s and one from the
late-70s. They both have "GM" displayed prominently right next to
"Frigidaire".

You may not like it, I may not like it, but Ford DID put GM parts in some
of their cars knowing full well they came from their mortal enemy.
_
_| ~~. John Strauss
\, *_} jstrauss

inetport.com
\( Texas Fight!

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thecore.com
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - EFI on a '73 302

Deacon wrote:

> I was given bad info OX. On EFI for beginners they say All 5-liter
> Mustangs built between 1986 and '95 (and all 5-liter Mercury Capris
> built in 1986) are equipped with sequential electronic fuel injection, >a type of port fuel injection. At the heart of this system is the >EEC-IV .

This is correct, but all sequential means is that injectors fire
independantly, twice, per 4 cycles of engine. Each injector has it's own
power and ground run back to EEC. Sequential EFi came with speed density
and mass air. All trucks running speed density, to my knowledge, have
bank fire (have only one power and ground going to 4 injectors, 2 banks,
one per side) or TBI. I don't think mass air was ever used with bank
injection on trucks. Bronco's converted to mass air in 96, also
converting to sequential. Ch*bbie has used bank fire on evertyhing since
day one.

> So does that mean I can get some of my parts from an '86 Capri?

Yes, but, 86, 5.0's are getting scarce. Thats one reason I'm keeping
mine forever.

> I found harnesses at http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.greenapple.com/~jcurrence/fuel.html and
> there are some kits, I would like to know if these are what your
> speaking of
>

I have never done a conversion to a non-EEC vehicle, hence I have
never looked that closely at aftermarket harness's. I have seen ads for
them and seen them in catalogs (and heard about them from 5.0/Fordnatics
lists, which is how I knew they existed.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------
>
> ENGINE HARNESSES AND CONTROLS PACKAGE
> M-12071-E302 5.0L/302 HO & 5.8L/351W FIRING ORDER 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
> $126.90
> You'll need this package to complete a 86-93 5.0L or 5.8L engine
> assembly with EFI. Kit
> MULTIPORT 5.0L EFI WIRING HARNESS COMPONETS
> For 86-93 5.0L EFI ENGINE CONVERSIONS ON STREET RODS, KIT CARS, TRUCKS,
> AND PASSENGER CARS
> MAIN HARNESS M-12071-C302 $310.00
> The foundation of Ford SVO's Multiport EFi Wiring Harness system, this
> harness connects the mass air flow computer to the engine, sensors, and
> relays. 26 page instruction book included with main harness. Contains
> very detailed instructions, helpful hints and lots of illustrations for
> easy hookup.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------
>
> If this is what I need, it still isn't bad but it's only the harness
>

Sounds like you either need the latter or both.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------
> COMPUTER And MASS AIR METER KIT
> MANUAL TRANS M-12071-F302 $285.00
> Boost you fuel economy! This mass air flow computer system operates with
> performance engine assemblies and stock high output engines. Kit
> includes the EEC-IV computer, mass air meter, inlet and outlet hoses,
> plus mass air meter mounting bracket.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------

A harness should have the mass air connector already. I would bag the
stock mass air meter, unless your staying with a stock motor. The
processor can be had rebuilt for less than 100$. Could try one of the
5.0 mustang only junk yards around the country.

> It's for a manual trans but I was thinking that's what I'll need with my
> C4. If it's for an auto it would be an A4OD right?

If it was from a truck. They also had AOD (mid 80's passensger car),
AODE (90's passenger car), A4LD (bronco II, Ranger), A4ODE (92+, full
size truck), C6 (late 80's truck), and probably other trans's (many
different manuals) behind EEC-IV engines.

> All too often people tell you what you want to hear. Thanks OX! If I
> didn't want to hear the truth I wouldn't have asked. To tell you the
> truth, it's cheaper than I thought. $150 is unbelievable.

Sure is if you can get upper/lower intake, injectors, mass air, all
sensors. Thats a major bargain.

OX
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 22:14:50 -0700
From: "Deacon"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - EFI on a '73 302

Well I've done a lot of reading, a lot of asking and a lot of price
checking. To buy what I need used, I could get a good aluminum manifold
and 4BBL carburetor. After reading a ton of stuff I would say there's
not much more I should buy used. The only thing used that would be OK to
just put on would be fuel rails. It would be leaving too much to chance
doing it half a$. Injectors at the very least be cleaned and tested
before using and the places that do it aren't cheap. Getting the
harnesses new only makes sense because getting them out of the donor
vehicle wouldn't be easy and they wouldn't be dependable, their not all
that expensive new (in a way cheaper than used). The distributor and
coil are a gamble used, the distributor can be a rebuild. The EEC and
TFI would be a bitch if something was wrong with them and if nothing
else the mass air would be a pain mounting in a place to be fed cool
clean air. There are too many ways things can go wrong just getting it
in and working and after that it would require a custom chip to work
properly on an engine it wasn't programmed for.
Bottom line: EFI is cool. To have it, I would buy a vehicle with it
already and make the performance upgrades having a more preferable base
to start from. It's a very doable conversion and has a high likely hood
of working done right. It's very expensive to do and in the end, a setup
like mine wouldn't have a large change in performance. $ for $ I'm going
to go with a manifold and carburetor. It will be easier to do, I will be
able to setup and dial it in myself, it will have a notable increase in
performance for less money, a lot less money.

Thanks to everyone for their input. If money wasn't tight, it would
be cool to try, but now's not the time and mines not the truck. It was
your help that enabled me to make my decision which is IMHO as or more
important than helping me do it.
Later Gang!

Deacon
deconblu

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