FTE 61-79 - 351 family...

61-79-list-digest Wednesday, May 13 1998 Volume 02 : Number 271

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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1961-1979 Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

FTE 61-79 - 351 family...
Re: FTE 61-79 - The legend and amen.
Re: FTE 61-79 - targets and rebuilds
Re: FTE 61-79 - Need opinions on engine rebuild/replacement
FTE 61-79 - Rebuilds and books
Re: FTE 61-79 - The legend and amen.
Re: FTE 61-79 - The legend and amen.
Re: FTE 61-79 - Charging systems
FTE 61-79 - f-150 weight
Re: FTE 61-79 - 351 family....
Re: F-111...was: Re: FTE 61-79 - Obsolete Ford Parts
FTE 61-79 - steve
FTE 61-79 - Amen.
FTE 61-79 - Shock Bushings - A Shocking Revelation
Re: FTE 61-79 - steve
FTE 61-79 - Re: 1965 F-100 running and being driven
Re: FTE 61-79 - engine buying ??'s
FTE 61-79 - Steve's FE saga.

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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:45:56 -0500
From: John Strauss
Subject: FTE 61-79 - 351 family...

>Where did the 352 come from?
>
The 352 is of the FE family (stands for Ford/Edsel, if that gives you any
idea how far back this design goes) and would be considered a "big block".
Good power for it's size but they really suck the gas.

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:06:08 PDT
From: "Jay Branscome"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - The legend and amen.

>From: "Chris Samuel"
>To:
>Subject: FTE 61-79 - The legend and amen.
>Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:37:03 -0700
>Reply-To: 61-79-list

ford-trucks.com
>
>The legend...
>
>Praises be unto the list makers,
>who hath created this place,
>Long may they run.
>
>For low in the beginning there was the net.
>And it was dark, and Ford Truckers wandered in the Cyberness.
>The great Ken came upon the Internet and said: "I shall create a place
for
>the people.
>and Fords shall rule."
>Then it was so...
>and unto the lists like great and Noble Horses they came out of the
>Cyberness.
>They collected unto the lists and their knowledge grew and the lists
>breathed and began to become greater then the Ken conceived.
>And the Ken guided the lists and Henry's children knew that it is good.
>Yet still the lists grew still and the Peggy joined the Ken and it was
good.
>And there were troubles, and some left, and others joined, and the
Deacon
>returned.
>There became a family of listers, and opinions were stated.
>and in the family there was tolerance for all who based on fact, and
>education
>and care for the innocent.
>And the servers staggered in the volume of the bytez. The servers
changed
>and the masters of the list carried the weight with never a falter, and
>still the list breathed.
>There were honors paid unto the list masters, so much deserved.
>And the list grew out of the net, and out of the Cyber, and the world
>trembled under the power of the Fords and Henry's children gathered at
the
>Forge and there was a bond.
>The Chevrolet trembled as they witnessed the power, for they new they
had
>seen their fate, and they hid their small blocks and were ashamed for
their
>impudence and ignorance.
>Thus it was in the beginning my children and so it remains...
>
>Praises be unto the list makers,
>who hath created this place,
>Long may they run....
>
>
Can we get an AMEN here please!

______________________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:02:12 -0700
From: "Deacon"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - targets and rebuilds

From: John LaGrone
>Yep, I'm a big target, front or back. If you decide to shoot me, don't
make
>the mistake of trying to wound me. I won't make the same mistake.

That wasn't a threat my friend. I'm on your side (from what I've read).
I'm a shotgun man myself. That way if I get a kind streak in me and just
want to wing them. Oh well! I tried. :) It just seemed like my post
needed an NRA or Soldier of Fortune ending.

>I got to thinking (dangerous as a rule). I didn't go to school to learn
>about cars, but I had an uncle who was in the business as a mechanic
and he
>was a great tutor and resource when I got stuck and he had every kind
of
>shop manual you could imagine. Unfortunately, I realized the value of
those
>books way too late and they are long gone, except for the two I never
>returned.

That's going to school in my book. You can't find a better instructor
than what you had!

>He also introduced me to my wife, but I forgave him for that. :-)

You also paid tuition!

>If there was a good "How to" book, I don't think I would be afraid to
>tackle a rebuild with you guys and gals as a resource as long as I had
>plenty of time.

If a person wants to and has some mechanical aptitude it can be
done. My rule is, a rebuild starts with disassembly. If things aren't
kept in order coming down it's damn hard to build back up. What Gary and
I was pointing out is it's necessary to know the problems to know the
solutions. The top end will in most cases be all an engine needs when
it's lost that old get up and go. It's also not cheap doing it yourself
so to dive in on a rebuild when all that was needed was a tune-up can
end in a box of parts that may never go back together. There is a big
difference between rebuilding an engine and overhauling an engine. I
would recommend a person doing an overhaul for the first time or two
before going for a rebuild. But that's my opinion, I could be wrong!

Deacon
deconblu

gte.net
=============================
Nuke the unborn baby whales.
=============================
Deacon's
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://home1.gte.net/deconblu/

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sonic.net
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Need opinions on engine rebuild/replacement

>> but why not do a relatively stock rebuild on a
>> 300/6 Yourself? You send the block, heads and crank off to the
>> machine shop for whatever machine work You need on them anyway.
>> When they come back it's mostly a matter of cleaning everything,

>Ok, maybe I was being a mother hen. It can be done if one takes his
>time and gets the right books etc. AND you find a shop that will work
>with you and help you make the right choices on parts and clearances
>etc. and that will actually machine the right clearances into it.

Whether You do it Yourself or have someone else does it You still are
at the mercy of the machinist. If You find one who's competent and
reliable be nice to him and buy him a bottle of his favorite for xmas.
A good machinist is a mechanics best friend.

At least some of the common mistakes the machinist might make should
show up when You check bearing clearances (plastigauge) and piston/cyl
clearance with feeler gauge. If it doesn't seem right You have the option
of taking it back to the machinist and asking "hey, what..?" If someone
else assembles it, they may just say, "aww, that's close enough. We can't
spend all day on this, and it's just an old ford 6 so what difference?"
Time is money, eh?

>I honed my own cylinders and was very fussy about both size, taper
>and cross hatching but I broke a lot of stones since it was my first
>attempt and I kept getting into the main webs.

Yeah, I honed my FE cylinders and did lots of measuring with a piston
and feeler gauges. I put the old (120,000+mile) pistons back in with
new rings. So far so good. It's got 39,000 miles on it, uses about a
a qt./2700 miles of oil and no blowby. I expect it's good for at least
another 39,000 miles, probably lots more before I do a "full" rebuild
on it. I've honed a lot of cylinders before, but I still damaged a
stone getting in too deep...

>If you don't know some of this stuff how can you check their work?
>It all comes down to trust. Until you can do it all for yourself you
>have to trust someone else to get it right and you just showed us
>it's not predictable. .020 over in a .040 over hole?? That had to
>sound like a diesel :-(

Yeah, it had just a tad of piston slap. All that smoke sure keeps
the skeeters outa the garage tho...
I still can't imagine how they got 6 right and 2 wrong. A blind man
should have noticed that without even using the feeler gauges. Lots
of slop there...

>CLEAN is the magic word just like with auto trannys. You need a
>clean area that can be kept clean with a minimum of effort.

AMEN! Clean is the key. Dirt is not Your motors friend.

> If you
>have that and lots of patience and desire, go for it :-) (is this a
>retraction? :-))

It's good to have a wise old mother hen to look after the inexperianced,
but sooner or later they all gotta learn to fly.. (-:

Steve
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.sonic.net/~sdelanty/

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
-- Hunter S. Thompson

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sonic.net
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Rebuilds and books

Gary wrote:
>>Ok, maybe I was being a mother hen. It can be done if one takes his
>>time and gets the right books etc. AND you find a shop that will work
>>with you and help you make the right choices on parts and clearances
>>etc. and that will actually machine the right clearances into it.

Books! A really good shop manual can be such a blessing during a rebuild!

A friend of mine bought a used "Service publications" "1967 Ford
and Mercury shop manual" for full sized sedans. These are the genuine
Ford shop manuals that were used in dealerships, etc. It was quite expensive
(like about $100 for a used, fragile copy) but it is AMAZING!

Anybody who can read can rebuild an engine if they have this book in hand.
It has very complete step by step rebuild instructions for 240, 289, 390 and
427 engines (about 40 pages for each engine) complete with good photos and
drawings showing how to measure stuff, etc.
Over 30 pages on rebuilding the 9" rear axle, including 2 pages of photos
on correct and incorrect dye patterns when adjusting the ring/pinion.
Rebuild instructions and full theory of operation for C4, C6, and FMX
trannies, including full hydraulic schematics, power flow diagrams and
cutaway drawings.
Service, troubleshooting,and rebuild of the manual trannies. (Including
top-loader)
Dozens of pages on theory and tuning of the 1bbl, 2bbl, 4bbl, and dual 4bbl
carbs used on those engines.
20 pages on troubleshooting the charging system, including full alternator
rebuild instructions. The list just goes on and on...
It's all simple to read, well explained, lots of good pictures, and layed
out to make it easy to find what You want.

Even tho the book is for a '67 "Full sized sedan" (Galaxie...), the amount
of info that's directly applicable to my '71 F100 is amazing. (-:
If You can find one, I highly recommend these old service publications books.
Even if You've gotta pay a C-note to get a beat up one, the info is
*well* worth it!

This one's pretty fragile, and I'm trying to get it archived so I can
access the info without subjecting the book to too much actual use, but
it's gonna eat up about 200 megs of hard drive to do it. And take a month
or 2 to scan it in...

Good books like that are worth their weight in gold!

Steve
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.sonic.net/~sdelanty/

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
-- Hunter S. Thompson

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:32:29 -0700
From: "Bill Beyer"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - The legend and amen.

AMEN!

- ----------
> From: Jay Branscome
> To: 61-79-list

ford-trucks.com
> Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - The legend and amen.
> Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 3:06 PM
> Can we get an AMEN here please!

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sonic.net
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - The legend and amen.

Chris wrote:
>Praises be unto the list makers,
>who hath created this place,
>Long may they run.
>

Wow! AMEN!

Steve

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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:59:24 -0700
From: "Bill Beyer"
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Charging systems

Ahhhhh! I hope you wHere joking Stu! A wHig? What wHere you thinking? The
Whigs were a political party back in the 1700s. Next you'll be "axing"
questions! ;-)

- ----------
> From: Stu Varner
> To: 61-79-list

ford-trucks.com
> Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - Charging systems
> Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 2:02 PM
>
> Reckon I should just get a whig!
>

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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:05:12 -0500
From: "Dale and Donna Carmine"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - f-150 weight

Bear,

>What is the weight (unloaded) of a 1978 F-150 XLT With a 351 M and a C-6?

My '79, f-150, 351M, C6, long bed, standard cab weighs right at 4,000 lbs
with a driver.

later,
dale c

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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:10:11 EDT
From: JJJJJGRANT
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - 351 family....

the 351 m,has the same bellhousing pattern as a 429-460,thats why 460 swaps
are so common in the mid to upper 70's model 4x4,the heads off of a 351
cleveland
which is considered a small block,will fit on a 351-400m also.the distributors
from
351c,351m,400m,429 & 460 will also interchange,351c,351m and 400 camshafts
will
interchange,and all including the 429 and 460 rocker arms are the same.and if
all that is n't confusing enough,the 351c head will also fit a 289,302 and
351w,and with
some machine work a 400 crankshaft will fit in a 351 w block,
the 351m and the cleveland head looks sqared off on the ends,water
does not
flow through the intake on the 351c,351m-400. the 351 w looks almost identical
to a 289-302 its just a bit wider.
hope this is not too confusing,and i hope it helps
jeff grant
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webtv.net
Subject: Re: F-111...was: Re: FTE 61-79 - Obsolete Ford Parts

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!
f-111 reply
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:19:57 -0700
From: tom
Subject: FTE 61-79 - steve

Steve,

RE: Steve "Fordtruck-lovin, tree-lovin,
breast feeding, long haired hippy type" Delanty

Aren't you a little old for breastfeedin' ;-)

On Topic - What can you tell us about the 390 ya built for your truck?

Tom,
Wonderin' in Reno,NV

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prodigy.com ( MICHAEL N BIGBY)
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Amen.

Sorry for the confusion. The Amen was for a frustrated list members
discourse on the wonderful people who would have all of us driving
nothing but geo metros or bicycles. Thought I had included his
comments in my reply. Mike.
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:35:22 EDT
From: BDIJXS
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Shock Bushings - A Shocking Revelation

I was visiting a local leaf spring fabricator today to have some new springs
made. I had brought along a set of new urethane spring bushing for him to use,
and he said they don't use those anymore because they've had too many of them
crack all apart in real cold weather.....has anyone else heard of this problem
with all the different types of urethane bushings and pads that are made? Just
curious....

Colorado Jeff
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:13:24 -0500
From: "Dennis K. Austin"
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Re: 1965 F-100 running and being driven

> Well guys, I finally did it! I got the '65 converted to disc brakes from a '74
> truck and replace all bushings and steering rods. Got a '77 NP435, and a rear
> end from a '74 Ranger. Its all together and its driveable and I am driving it
> just for fun.. Ken and I had a lot of e-mail going back and forth on this months
> ago. With all new brake lines and some help from friends and of course you all
> this thing cruises nicely. I had it aligned at a tire shop and the guy said it
> was almost right on... was real easy to align.

I ended up with a slight slammed look in the front. It sounds healthy and seems to
want to get break away from my control when stomping on it in second gear. It will
rip the 275's up the concrete street which is what I did. Its pure truck! But, I
will keep enhancing it to quite down the ride. I am not sure if I like the NP435
yet. Maybe I should have gone C4 or C6? But, I have only been driving it for two
days now.

As soon as I get it shinny I will e-mail a photo to Ken.

- -=DENNIS=-

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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:55:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: CLARE WATERMAN
Subject: Re: FTE 61-79 - engine buying ??'s

my original question was : what should i look for in purchasing a used
engine??

the reply was:
>
> Give us some back ground so we know how to direct the thread for you?
> Are you mechanically knowledgeable yourself?

I am not a total goof, do all my own maintenance and repair, am a
good mechanical thinker and have read alot about engine design and
building in the past year.
I have been itching to try my hands at a first time attempt at home engine
rebuild. I found a guy that has two 390's for sale-- one for $50 that he
pulled out of a truck because he got a newer 460 and another that he
pulled out because oilpan gasket and rear seal were shot (for $200). in
the mean time he got his hands on a second 460. he
pulled the heads off the $50 one to begin to rebuild it and never got back
to it. he replaced the oil pan gasket and rod and main bearings on the
$200 one.

> Do you plan to do most
> of the work yourself?

all but machining--

>How much do you want to invest in the project?
> How much time do you have to apply to this project?

I have weekends, but there is no real time limit on the project as i have
a 360 in my rig that is running strong at 110,000 mi. I have a hundred
to $200 or so a month to play with, being realistic. I'd rather not put
more that $800- or so into it. Ive got some decent semi-performance
bolt-ons on the 360 (intake, carb, fuel pump, coil, wires) that i would
swap over.

tHE MAin point of the project is a learning experience that may give me a
bigger stronger more efficient engine in my truck if all goes well.

the suggestions so far have been really helpful

TIA,

Clare M. Waterman-Storer, Ph.D.
Department of Biology
University of North Carolina
Chapel Hill, NC, 27599-3280

T: (919)-962-2354
F: (919)-962-1625

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sonic.net
Subject: FTE 61-79 - Steve's FE saga.

>Steve,
>
>RE: Steve "Fordtruck-lovin, tree-lovin,
> breast feeding, long haired hippy type" Delanty
>
>Aren't you a little old for breastfeedin' ;-)

Never, I hope...

>On Topic - What can you tell us about the 390 ya built for your truck?
>
>Tom,
>Wonderin' in Reno,NV

Ummm, O.K... But that's not a short story, so be warned...

Keep in mind that I got the F100 for free, and it hadn't been driven
or registered in over 10 years. I knew that the truck was rough and
needed *lots* of work and that the origional 240/6 was seized and
no good, but I had *no* idea what the tranny, rear axle, or anything else
was like. I had no idea how much work it might take to get the truck running,
or even if I'd like it if it did run. I'd never owned a pick-up before...
So, I really wasn't into spending a bunch of money on the motor only to
find out the rest of the truck was junk, or I couldn't stand to drive it.

I had to decide what motor to replace the 240 with. I'm wasn't particularly
looking for a real fast truck, but it had too be a good torquey work truck,
reliable, and not be an embarassment pulling a heavy load up a steep grade.
My first choice was a 300/6 because I love the sound of a hard running 6
and I think it would be fun to have a well built 6 in a truck. It would be
something different and I've gotta lotta respect for Ford's big 300/6.

It turned out that 300's were scarce when I was looking, and people wanted
big bux for them so I had to keep looking for awhile and considered other
motors. Whatever I put in HAD to be CA smog legal, so 385 series was out.
I didn't want a 289/302 cuz... well, just cuz. A 351W would be nice, but I
couldn't find a cheap one and there might be CA smog problems.
Then one day... an add in the paper. "for sale: '73 Ford 360 engine. runs,
needs work. $75."
Hmmm, O.K. I've got good respect for FE's, so a 360 is cool (wish it was
a 390 methinks), It's smog legal in a '71 F100 (a must), and for $75 I can't
go too far wrong...
So I go see the guy and the motor is still in a '73 F350 utility body with
a C6 behind it.
It has 120K miles on it and the guy was swapping a fresher motor in from
a wrecked truck so He can move to Idaho. He says he's owned the truck since
it had about 40K miles on it and doesn't think it's ever been opened up.
He starts it and it runs O.K, but a little smoky at first and has this funny
knocking noise at idle that goes away when revved a bit. He says it's a rod
knock, but I'm not so sure. Anyway, $75 for a running FE core sounds
reasonable, and for another $25 he'll throw in a bellhousing to mate it to
my T-18, and a rather dubious looking flywheel for it also. And an alternator.
SOLD! So I come back later in the evening and he's got the FE hanging from
a hoist waiting for me.

I drag my new found treasure home and open it up...
Hmmmm, it's dirty, greasy, nasty, and has a stroke of 3.78"...
YEEEHAWW! This ain't no 360, it's a 390 !! (doin the FE dance here...)
Several days of cleaning and measuring parts follows...

So now I've got a well worn FE390 that still has standard bore and crank.
The knocking noise turned out to be a timing chain so loose it was slapping
the inside of the timing cover! Rod bearings were heavily worn, and showing
lots of copper, but crank looked pretty good, just a little rough.
Rings are shot, but pistons and cylinders aren't all that bad.
Cam and lifters are thoroughly toasted.

I'm willing to spend up to $1K to rebuild it.
I wish I had more bux to spend on it, but I don't right now, and not
sure if I like the truck yet anyway, so the motor gets:

- - Crank turned -.010"/.010"
- - New bearings. Rods, mains and cam. I pulled new cam bearings in myself
with a ho-made (tm) cam bearing puller.
- - New oil pump and drive shaft.
- - New cam and lifters. (208/218

.050" and .465"/495" lift.)
- - New timing chain and sprockets.
- - Much head work... All new valves, springs, retainers, keepers, hardened
exhaust seats, headgasket and intake surface cleanup(milled .020"),
and a couple exhaust bolt holes heli-coiled.
- - New rings on origional pistons. I honed the cylinders myself with a
rented cylinder hone. Piston/cylinder clearances were outside the
"new assembly" limit, but still well within the "service limit" specs.
- - All gaskets and seals.
- - Flywheel surfaced and new pressure plate, clutch disk, T.O.bearing,
pilot bushing.
- - New water pump and all new water hoses and hose clamps.
- - New fuel pump, rubber fuel lines and clamps.
- - Tune-up parts, points, condensor, plugs, wires, rotor, cap, air filter.
- - Carb rebuild kit. (2100)
- - Lotsa engine cleaner and some paint.
- - Headers. The stock exhaust manifolds were cracked. )-:
- - New freeze plugs and oil galley plugs.

I ended up with about $1125 into all that, including the purchase
price of the motor, but not including any exhaust system past the headers.

Exhaust is 2-1/2" duals w/crossover and dynomax muffs. I installed all the
exhaust stuff myself. I bent up an "exhaust system" to fit, out of 3/4"
electrical conduit and took it down to the muff shop and said "make it look
like this, but out of 2-1/2" pipe.." They bent it up and and I took it all
home and installed it.

NO machine work was done on the block. I honed it myself, removed the oil
galley plugs and thoroughly cleaned the block, replaced freeze plugs, changed
my own cam bearings, and modified up the oil passages in the standard FE
manner.

When the heads came back from the shop I did some cleanup work with the
die grinder. Just a tad of cleanup in the intake ports, a *bunch* of work in
the exhaust ports including removal of the thermactor bump, narrowing of the
exhaust valve guide bosses, and a little cleanup in the combustion chamber to
remove sharp edges.

Bolted it all together, and put 39,000 miles on it so far... (2 years)
It pulls real hard, uses about 1qt of oil per 27-2800 miles, doesn't smoke,
starts easy hot or cold, never leaves me walkin... what more could I want?
Well, I could want more than 12 mpg, but...
It turns out that I really love the truck, so next time I open it up
I'll do a more "deluxe" rebuild. I expect it'll go *at least* 75K before
I open it again, and I'm *real* picky about oil burners.

Since I got it running, I've added: electric cooling fans(which I love),
duraspark distributor with big cap and wires(works good) MSD6A box and coil
(works good), edelbrock 600cfm carb(which I love), edelbrock performer
intake(which I DON'T love), and crane pushrods and adjustable rockers(turned
out to be necessary), and oil restrictors to the top end oiling passage.

I have no regrets yet, it's performed up to all my expectations and then
some...

I *wish* it had nice new 9.5:1 pistons in nice fresh bores and *wish* it
was all balanced and blueprinted and on and on, but until then it's a good....

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